O/T Cressida Dick

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AndrewJB
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:33 am

Clarets4me wrote:Here is the full article, written by James Bartholomew, it was not a " Telegraph " editorial, by the way. Let people make up their own minds ...



Banks and businesses aren't waiting for instructions

Before long, the show will start all over again. Theresa May will probably strut her stuff in Brussels and Berlin. Jean-Claude Juncker will reject British demands, insult Mrs May, then say she’s terrific. Emmanuel Macron - boy wonder that he is - will take time out from the chaos in his own country to be condescending about ours. Crisis summits will be held. Angela Merkel will look worried.

Subliminally, we in the audience will get the impression that everything depends on presidents and prime ministers arriving and departing in black limousines. They are, of course, important. All right, very important. But what tends to be forgotten is the role played by “the little battalions”: actors in the drama who don’t get into the headlines – people who do not “run” the economy but “are” the economy. If we end up with no deal, their activities will be crucial.

One worry has been that the ports will get clogged up. But European ports are not inert objects, like chess pieces, which the limo-riders get to move around as they please. Ports have their own managements. Take Rotterdam. Roel van’t Veld is the chief of the Customs Authority of the Port of Rotterdam. As Rotterdam is the biggest port in Europe, he is part of quite a big battalion. He is not waiting to get a directive from Jean-Claude. Once Britain leaves the EU, the UK will become a “third country” for EU purposes which means extra work processing freight traffic. Roel started recruiting up to another 1,000 new staff earlier this year. A new IT system has been introduced. A simulation study has been done to identify potential bottlenecks. Roel said, “Our job is to make sure things don’t seize up and we are pretty good at it.”

Our own shipping companies and ports have not been waiting for instructions either. Seaborne Freight has been working on a new shipping route from Ramsgate to Ostend. Associated British Ports is spending £36m on new container port capacity at Immingham. Such extra capacity will be available to profit from any clogging up of the Dover/Calais route. But talk of blockages there may be exaggerated. Jean-Marc Puissesseau, chief of Calais port, is another of the “little people” working hard to keep the traffic flowing. He remarked, “we are doing our utmost” to avoid stacking lorries on the motorway.

The great illusion is that people and organisations don’t react – that they could see a train heading straight at them and not budge. They take action because they have every reason to. If businesses see an obstacle, they immediately start thinking how to get round it to preserve their profitability. Politicians have been creating uncertainty as if this were their primary job. Businesses have been working to reduce it. It is one of the advantages of a pluralistic society that we do not depend on central direction. Companies and individuals are independent units.

The banks, insurers and other financial companies have all been making extensive preparations in the past few years. Barclays has added an extra 150-200 staff to its subsidiary in Ireland which will now handle the business which needs to be done from within the EU. Jes Staley, the chief executive, says the bank is “100 per cent prepared” for a no-deal Brexit.

What about the £14 billion Aviva savings and insurance company? To be honest, it hasn’t done much. That’s because, in this particular case, there has been no need: “We have a presence in several global markets and so believe Brexit will not impact us at all, as all our businesses are incorporated locally.” Standard Life, another insurance major, has beefed up its presence in Ireland and Luxembourg to conduct its EU business. In fact, the picture for financial services – one of our biggest industries - is remarkably good. Even the Remainer-oriented Financial Times has reluctantly admitted, “financial services companies have made extensive preparations”.

Michel Barnier looks grave and haughty as he tells us we can’t have this and we can’t have that. It is tempting to imagine that companies need his permission to do business. They don’t. Lord Bamford wrote a letter to the Telegraph last week saying that his company, JCB, which makes diggers, is fully accustomed to selling on World Trade Organisation terms. Forty per cent of his exports go to such countries. It’s “a matter of routine”. The routine can be extended to the EU.

Yes, there are problems in certain specific industries. Britain is big in pharmaceuticals and this area is full of non-tariff barriers. But, again, our companies have reacted. They are multinationals and have been selling in the EU for years. They know what they need to do to comply with the rules. GlaxoSmithKline, for example, one of our pharmaceutical giants, has been re-testing and reregistering its products where necessary. It is costing the company £60-£70m but that’s a small fraction of its £30 billion annual sales so it is able to make this remarkable statement: “Over the long term, we believe that Brexit will not have a material impact on our business.”

The industry where the obstacles seem most difficult is automobile production. Components whizz across the Channel and back again. There is a relatively high EU tariff of ten per cent and non-tariff barriers, too. It would be useful, even in the case of no overall deal, if a side-deal could be made for this industry. If not, the adjustments might be painful. But even here, companies are certainly trying to work out how to change things here and there to smooth Brexit. Harald Krueger, chief executive of BMW, has remarked “BMW is about flexibility”.

The natural bias of news is towards star politicians and anything negative, which includes any news about problems with Brexit. What tends to be missed is the myriad individuals and organisations making plans and reacting to circumstances. There will be much more of this to come in the next three months as the crunch date approaches. All countries have on-the-ground flexibility but Britain, being less centralised than, say, France, is particularly good at it. Sometimes people on the outside perceive this better than we do ourselves. David Folkert-Landau, chief economist at Deutsche Bank, remarked recently, “I am not at all worried about the UK whatever the arrangement because they’re the most flexible country in the world.”
This is just more evidence of what a complete shower this all is. The port of Rotterdam hiring a thousand new customs people - you might say Brexit is increasing employment - but what kind of employment? They aren’t adding to value, but there to deal with all the excess regulation Brexit brings to the party. Regulation that adds more time between goods moving between us and them - which is an increased cost to business, and inevitably an increased cost to us.

Business deals with this (and passes the cost to the consumer) but our public sector can’t, because it is starved of money by a government happier to hand out tax breaks to the rich than actually pay for things people need.

Those who suggest a no deal Brexit will be fine should be held to account.

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by bennitor » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:40 am

Some correct info on here and some not. The UK returns roughly 8 to 1 via the EAW - in other words, getting 8 criminals out of our country for every one we get back. Of the ones we do return, around 4 percent are UK nationals, the rest aren't.

A system that is hugely valued but not mentioned here is SIS II - the Schengen information system which allows the instant circulation of alerts on vulnerable missing people, those wanted for arrest and also terrorist related subjects.

Europol is a significant system used across UK law enforcement and whilst third party access is possible this will cost more and will leave us at the back of the room and out of every decision making process. We also will not be able to drive their work as we do now (we are a huge leader and contributor).

There are some alternatives (such as Interpol) but the issue with those is that our main partners (the EU block) will utilise all the other systems to share intelligence and that's where they will invest their effort. We are moving ourselves to the back of the queue and things will slow down a lot.

There are many other law enforcement systems that we will potentially lose access to or have to enter as a third party. Intelligence sharing won't stop because the will is there at a law enforcement level but things will slow down. And in this fast paced digitsl day and age, it has been shown that time is key on so many occasions.

All of the above is public record through select committee hearings and it is not just Cressida Dick who has highlighted these points. It's absolutely right that law enforcement warns of potential dangers from political actions. That's not being political, that's them doing their job to keep UK citizens safe.
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by burnleymik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:55 am

AndrewJB wrote:“Just revert” to what we had before? Typewriters? We need the agreement of the other EU countries to revert back - though we’d really be best off staying in Europol, non?
Oh right, so the US and Australia etc must still be using typewriters? Nonsense.

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:00 am

Dick by name...

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by bennitor » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:04 am

burnleymik wrote:Oh right, so the US and Australia etc must still be using typewriters? Nonsense.
Whilst Australia and the US are obviously key partners on a global intelligence scale, I would suggest our most important partners from a day to day law enforcement perspective are within the EU. I'd also suggest that if Australia and the US were offered equivalent access to many of the systems used in Europe then they would be biting hands off.

One of the reasons we have such a 'special' relationship with the US is because we offered them a gateway to Europe, European partners and European intelligence. We won't be that important to them any more that's for sure.
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:23 am

burnleymik wrote:Oh right, so the US and Australia etc must still be using typewriters? Nonsense.
Nonsense is you responding to the "satirical" part of my post but not the material bit.

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:38 am

Seriously lads, its a continuing LOL on here that when someone posts stuff they clearly know what they are talking about, uninformed Brexiteers try to undermine them.

At some stage you lot are going to have to start dealing with the real issues, rather than assuming everything is just a remainer plot.

2019 would be a good start for that I feel
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by burnleymik » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 am

bennitor wrote:Whilst Australia and the US are obviously key partners on a global intelligence scale, I would suggest our most important partners from a day to day law enforcement perspective are within the EU. I'd also suggest that if Australia and the US were offered equivalent access to many of the systems used in Europe then they would be biting hands off.

One of the reasons we have such a 'special' relationship with the US is because we offered them a gateway to Europe, European partners and European intelligence. We won't be that important to them any more that's for sure.
These are the countries who already already work with Europol directly,
As of September 2017, Europol cooperates on an operational basis with Albania, Australia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Canada, Denmark, Colombia, Georgia, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Norway, Serbia, Switzerland, Ukraine and United States of America and Interpol.
So we would put ourselves into the same situation as these countries. They already all work together and I presume it is in the interest of all parties to make sure the UK continues to work with them?

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Damo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:02 am

I'm not sure quoting vehicle manufacturers is a good idea from a remainers point of view.
They have been moving jobs abroad for the past decade.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 1147061751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So it's unsurprising they are concerned about Brexit.
I'm glad they are personally. They have been ripping off the consumer for long enough, and a few less vehicles on the road can only be a good thing if that's what it comes to
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:04 am

Fully agree with the idea that less cars on the road are a good thing but there are better ways of doing that without putting thousands out of work for the sake of what looks like bad planning by the Uk Govt.

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Damo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:06 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Fully agree with the idea that less cars on the road are a good thing but there are better ways of doing that without putting thousands out of work for the sake of what looks like bad planning by the Uk Govt.
Read my post mate. The industry has been putting hundreds of thousands of people out of work in the UK for a good 10 years

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:10 am

But you don't want to make that worse Damo.

End of the day, when we talk about Brexit and we all broadly agree that there will be a downturn in the UK economy (the actual severity depends on your point of view on Brexit of course!) then that will involve actual people losing their jobs, with all the difficulties that involves.

Over time stuff like competition and increased automation is going to cause us even more problems which we will have to deal with, but why make it worse when we don't have to?

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Damo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:21 am

I don't see how remaining in the EU equates to not making things worse, when car manufacturers move jobs abroad on, what seems like a daily basis.
And they have been doing since long before Brexit was even a thing.
Quoting them, and their fears must be a real smack in the mouth for people from places like Port Talbot, Hartlepool and the West Midlands.
When it comes to the Automotive industry, the EU has far more to lose than the UK.
Again, I'm glad they are worried

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:43 am

Damo wrote: When it comes to the Automotive industry, the EU has far more to lose than the UK.
Again, I'm glad they are worried
Maybe check a few figures before making such a bold statement.
Less than 12% of EU produced / exported cars come to the UK. That's a 12% hit divided by 27.
54% of UK exported cars go to the EU.
Now, who is most likely to feel more pain?

https://www.acea.be/statistics/article/ ... u-partners" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Damo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:51 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Maybe check a few figures before making such a bold statement.
Less than 12% of EU produced / exported cars come to the UK. That's a 12% hit divided by 27.
54% of UK exported cars go to the EU.
Now, who is most likely to feel more pain?

https://www.acea.be/statistics/article/ ... u-partners" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From your own link
"In 2017, the United Kingdom produced 1.75 million motor vehicles, exporting 800,000 of these within the European Union.

The other way around, the EU countries represent 82% of the UK’s motor vehicle import volume, worth €38 billion. The 27 other EU member states (EU27) produced 19.69 million motor vehicles in 2017 and exported 2.3 million (11.7%) of these to the United Kingdom."

So (ignoring your statistics) the EU exported more cars to the UK than the UK manufactured.

I'll stick with my original view on who has more to lose in this particular sector
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by bennitor » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:59 am

burnleymik wrote:These are the countries who already already work with Europol directly,



So we would put ourselves into the same situation as these countries. They already all work together and I presume it is in the interest of all parties to make sure the UK continues to work with them?
Indeed that is the case but they are third countries. They can't lead on projects and steer them in beneficial directions. They also can't make or influence any decisions- they get to sit in the room but can't have a say in the direction of anything.

That said, Europol is the one to theoretically worry the least about as there is a route to partially get back in. It's the others that will be more impacrful.

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:33 pm

Damo wrote:From your own link
"In 2017, the United Kingdom produced 1.75 million motor vehicles, exporting 800,000 of these within the European Union.

The other way around, the EU countries represent 82% of the UK’s motor vehicle import volume, worth €38 billion. The 27 other EU member states (EU27) produced 19.69 million motor vehicles in 2017 and exported 2.3 million (11.7%) of these to the United Kingdom."

So (ignoring your statistics) the EU exported more cars to the UK than the UK manufactured.

I'll stick with my original view on who has more to lose in this particular sector
So you are prepared to ignore scale and percentages in order to support an argument.
2.3 million cars from 27 countries come here.
Almost 1 million UK cars go to the EU.
Who should be most concerned?

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Damo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:48 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:So you are prepared to ignore scale and percentages in order to support an argument.
2.3 million cars from 27 countries come here.
Almost 1 million UK cars go to the EU.
Who should be most concerned?
You seem very precise when quoting one figure, then round up an extra 25% for the other. Why is that?

Out of the 27 countries you mention, how many produce and export vehicles to the UK?

How many of the vehicles imported and exported to the UK are made by British companies?

We exported 800,000 cars in 2017, but how many will we export in 2027 if we are still part of the EU, and losing around 60,000 jobs per year to EU based factories.

Answer all of these honestly and then get back to me regarding who stands to lose the most. (If the doomsday scenario predicted by remainers ever comes to fruition)

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:27 pm

Damo wrote:You seem very precise when quoting one figure, then round up an extra 25% for the other. Why is that?

Out of the 27 countries you mention, how many produce and export vehicles to the UK?

How many of the vehicles imported and exported to the UK are made by British companies?

We exported 800,000 cars in 2017, but how many will we export in 2027 if we are still part of the EU, and losing around 60,000 jobs per year to EU based factories.

Answer all of these honestly and then get back to me regarding who stands to lose the most. (If the doomsday scenario predicted by remainers ever comes to fruition)
Point 1. Ok, I'll round it back down to 800,000, but it doesn't alter the argument one bit.
Point 2. Without checking further or looking at this in detail the answer appears to be in the link that I provided. Basically there are only half a dozen or so countries who export more vehicles and parts to the UK than we export to them, so in answer to your final question, it appears that over 20 of the EU countries stand to lose less than us.
Point 3. Maybe you can tell me. I don't know. What I do know though is that car production isn't limited to a single plant in a single country. Manufacturers rely on frictionless borders, to move parts and accessories rapidly from plant to plant. (e.g. Toyota, like most other car makers, operates on a “just-in-time” production system, it only keeps four hours’ worth of parts on-site at Burnaston. This means the company requires constant restocking, with an average of 50 trucks delivering components from the EU each day. They all currently go through customs seamlessly, without the need for checks. The company fear that this would dramatically change in the event of a no deal or hard Brexit.)
Point 4. You know that I can't answer that, and nor can anyone. All we can do is listen to the owners of companies like Toyota, BMW, Vauxhall, Jaguar/LandRover, Nissan and others, and draw our own conclusions.
I've drawn mine, based on all the above evidence. What do you base your conclusions on?

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by THEWELLERNUT70 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:29 pm

Sounds like a venereal diseases

"I caught a touch of Cressida D!ck that I need looking at"

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:34 pm

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote:Sounds like a venereal diseases

"I caught a touch of Cressida D!ck that I need looking at"
Well, at least you might have got us back on topic now after the deviation into the car industry!
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:08 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:
Point 2. Without checking further or looking at this in detail the answer appears to be in the link that I provided. Basically there are only half a dozen or so countries who export more vehicles and parts to the UK than we export to them, so in answer to your final question, it appears that over 20 of the EU countries stand to lose less than us.
Hi nil_d, of those "20 of the EU countries" who "stand to lose less than us" how many of them are involved in car manufacturing? It's possible that every one of the EU27 is involved somewhere in the car supply chain, I guess. In terms of the "major marques" we could list Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden (I assume the Chinese are still building Volvos in Sweden). Who owns Vauxhall/Opel these days, I think GM sold a couple of years back, didn't they? Ford, are all their plants in Belgium, Spain, Portugal (?) still open? How many have Ford got open in UK, these days? Aren't they closing one in Bordeaux soon, or are the French nationalising it?

Just my questions.

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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:12 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm sure they will.

Lines like "The industry where the obstacles seem most difficult is automobile production. Components whizz across the Channel and back again. There is a relatively high EU tariff of ten per cent and non-tariff barriers, too. It would be useful, even in the case of no overall deal, if a side-deal could be made for this industry. If not, the adjustments might be painful."

"might be painful" = job losses, potentially worse as well

Oh, and "Seaborne Freight has been working on a new shipping route from Ramsgate to Ostend. Associated British Ports is spending £36m on new container port capacity at Immingham."

What does "working on?" mean?

Does it mean they have the ferries lined up, the linkspans in place, the tugmasters available, the staff trained?

Or does it mean they have looked at it as an option and know they can't do it before April 2019?

Does James understand that container freight needs a completely different type of trailer?

All these businesses setting up different companies in the EU? You do know that will be replacing UK based staff? It doesn't mention that (even if they are offered the chance to relocate, many won't, especially as they will lose freedom of movement so if they lose that job they might well have to come back to the UK?)

And the usual amount of guff about Britain being "flexible" (Tory speak for cutting regulations to make us competitive)

Yup, people will draw their own conclusions.
Hi Lancs, I wonder, why did you pick out the "negative" bits?

Don't you think there is an advantage in being flexible? (It doesn't mean "cutting regulations" - UK businesses are very good at complying with all the regulations they face).
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Damo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:21 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Point 1. Ok, I'll round it back down to 800,000, but it doesn't alter the argument one bit.
Point 2. Without checking further or looking at this in detail the answer appears to be in the link that I provided. Basically there are only half a dozen or so countries who export more vehicles and parts to the UK than we export to them, so in answer to your final question, it appears that over 20 of the EU countries stand to lose less than us.
Point 3. Maybe you can tell me. I don't know. What I do know though is that car production isn't limited to a single plant in a single country. Manufacturers rely on frictionless borders, to move parts and accessories rapidly from plant to plant. (e.g. Toyota, like most other car makers, operates on a “just-in-time” production system, it only keeps four hours’ worth of parts on-site at Burnaston. This means the company requires constant restocking, with an average of 50 trucks delivering components from the EU each day. They all currently go through customs seamlessly, without the need for checks. The company fear that this would dramatically change in the event of a no deal or hard Brexit.)
Point 4. You know that I can't answer that, and nor can anyone. All we can do is listen to the owners of companies like Toyota, BMW, Vauxhall, Jaguar/LandRover, Nissan and others, and draw our own conclusions.
I've drawn mine, based on all the above evidence. What do you base your conclusions on?
I've based my conclusions on what I've previously stated above.
Car manufacturing in the UK has been eroded year on year by companies moving production abroad (plenty of examples of this being done with the help of EU subsidies) Jaguar/Land rover announced earlier this year that they are moving production of the Discovery to Slovakia, so yes, Brexit will impact them negatively.
Should we be worried about losing 800,000 exports when there is potentially a 2.3 million unit gap in a market to be filled? I don't think so. Should BMW, Renault/Nissan, VW/Audi etc be worried? Yes
Years of moving production abroad will cost them when the tariffs kick in.
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:49 pm

Damo wrote:I've based my conclusions on what I've previously stated above.
Car manufacturing in the UK has been eroded year on year by companies moving production abroad (plenty of examples of this being done with the help of EU subsidies) Jaguar/Land rover announced earlier this year that they are moving production of the Discovery to Slovakia, so yes, Brexit will impact them negatively.
Should we be worried about losing 800,000 exports when there is potentially a 2.3 million unit gap in a market to be filled? I don't think so. Should BMW, Renault/Nissan, VW/Audi etc be worried? Yes
Years of moving production abroad will cost them when the tariffs kick in.
Fair play to you Damo. I don't agree with your conclusions, but at least you put forward coherent arguments that support your views - unlike Ringo and one or two others who make no attempt to debate seriously.
To be honest I genuinely hope that when brexit happens it delivers all that you expect it to do, but based on all I've read and experienced, I really fear that you will be disappointed.
Anyway, a happy new year to you and your family, and let's hope it brings better fortunes for the Clarets and good health and greater prosperity for all.
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by Damo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:59 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Fair play to you Damo. I don't agree with your conclusions, but at least you put forward coherent arguments that support your views - unlike Ringo and one or two others who make no attempt to debate seriously.
To be honest I genuinely hope that when brexit happens it delivers all that you expect it to do, but based on all I've read and experienced, I really fear that you will be disappointed.
Anyway, a happy new year to you and your family, and let's hope it brings better fortunes for the Clarets and good health and greater prosperity for all.
Great post mate. Thank you.

All the best to you and yours

AndrewJB
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Re: O/T Cressida Dick

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:14 pm

burnleymik wrote:These are the countries who already already work with Europol directly,



So we would put ourselves into the same situation as these countries. They already all work together and I presume it is in the interest of all parties to make sure the UK continues to work with them?
Why leave Europol at all? If it's a beneficial thing, why not negotiate to stay in it, while we leave the EU?

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