True it is an absolute pointless discussion but just what messageboards were made for. Think i'll just zip it on this topic now but dont worry I'll give you a wave as I come speeding past you in the empty lanehouseboy wrote:But if they all go at the same speed doesn't that somewhat negate the 'zipping' (what a good word by the way)?
*This is an interesting argument but we aren't getting anywhere. (See what I did then?)
Devils_Advocate wrote:But if you all hadn't moved into the inside lane to early and stayed in the outside lane until the roadworks they would never be an empty lane.
What you are doing by going slowly in the empty lane is what would happen naturally without you if everyone just filled up both lanes
Surely this all means you are in complete support of those that the OP rages against? They're achieving exactly what you recommend: filling up all the lanes and equalising the speed between them, thus providing the perfect conditions for deano's graphic to work.Devils_Advocate wrote:I am not sure where you are going with these accusations on my character
Seriously though if everyone fills both lanes and they are both going at the same speed there is absolutely no opportunity for anyone to sneak up the outside and push in
Apart from the fact inevitably it will eventually reach the previous junction and people who approach the back of it won't know why anyone is queuing and go round it...If it be your will wrote:Provided the tailback is not so long it's blocking the previous junction, it makes absolutely no difference what length the queue is. I'm not interested in a queue's length, just the time required to get through it. Merging early reduces this.
I'll certainly agree with thatBFCmaj wrote:If everybody was a lot more courteous on the roads in general and let people in then traffic would flow more freely.
No one is doubting the science Rick. It is, as you suggest, probably a British thing. If the traffic in one lane is stationary, they should not be left to rot, as the other lane gains all the advantage.Rick_Muller wrote:To me it's analogous to fluid mechanics...
If you consider a pipe (road) with a fluid (vehicles) flowing through it approaching a narrowing of the pipe (roadworks), it is definitely not quicker to get some of the fluid (vehicles) to stop to one side of the pipe (left lane of road) leaving a void to the other side of the pipe (right lane of road) - the quickest way for all the fluid (vehicles) to pass through the narrowing (roadworks) is to occupy all of the available pipe (road) and not for some of the fluid (vehicles) to stop or block the other fluid (vehicles) from using their artificially created void (empty right lane).
Of course fluid has no manners and isn't necessarily British - so queuing isn't a problem...
I hope that makes sense
Then surely it’s an education thing. If people were aware of the correct rules, there wouldn’t be a problem. The problem isn’t with the people merging lanes where the cones are, its the people refusing to let them in that’s the problem.IanMcL wrote:No one is doubting the science Rick. It is, as you suggest, probably a British thing. If the traffic in one lane is stationary, they should not be left to rot, as the other lane gains all the advantage.
Unless the 2 lanes are moving (which they are sometimes), there is an issue.
Stay in whichever lane you like. That's what the lorries are doing. But once you're zooming past a line of near-stationary vehicles, you know you're just pushing in. No graphic or pipe analogy will ever disguise that!Rick_Muller wrote:To me it's analogous to fluid mechanics...
If you consider a pipe (road) with a fluid (vehicles) flowing through it approaching a narrowing of the pipe (roadworks), it is definitely not quicker to get some of the fluid (vehicles) to stop to one side of the pipe (left lane of road) leaving a void to the other side of the pipe (right lane of road) - the quickest way for all the fluid (vehicles) to pass through the narrowing (roadworks) is to occupy all of the available pipe (road) and not for some of the fluid (vehicles) to stop or block the other fluid (vehicles) from using their artificially created void (empty right lane).
Of course fluid has no manners and isn't necessarily British - so queuing isn't a problem...
I hope that makes sense
The point is that if all those who got over to the left early instead tried to get as close to the front as possible there would be no room to zoom down the right because the void of the right hand lane would not exist. If it be your will (do you like what I did thereIf it be your will wrote:Stay in whichever lane you like. That's what the lorries are doing. But once you're zooming past a line of near-stationary vehicles, you know you're just pushing in. No graphic or pipe analogy will ever disguise that!
) to get over to the left as early as possible you really shouldn't have any justification to moan or try to block those who understand fluid dynamics and will zoom down your right. The problem only actually exists because there are some people who choose to get over early.Okay, I'll tell you what, we'll compromise. I'll promise to stay in my lane (even if it is the one that ultimately becomes obstructed) thereby not pulling over too early and filling that lane too quickly. But so as not to push in, I'll make sure I don't overtake anyone. And like you say, if everyone did this, it would all work perfectly. Then we can all while away our time thinking about fluid dynamics without anyone having to get angry.Rick_Muller wrote:The point is that if all those who got over to the left early instead tried to get as close to the front as possible there would be no room to zoom down the right because the void of the right hand lane would not exist. If it be your will (do you like what I did there
...and yes, I know I am pushing in front of those who dont understand fluid dynamics - their choice not mine
At least acknowledge that there is logic in this argument even if you don't agree with it.
Fluidity of movement sounds very much like a severe case of https://youtu.be/ozKLHFxAvAo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Rick_Muller wrote:To me it's analogous to fluid mechanics...
If you consider a pipe (road) with a fluid (vehicles) flowing through it approaching a narrowing of the pipe (roadworks), it is definitely not quicker to get some of the fluid (vehicles) to stop to one side of the pipe (left lane of road) leaving a void to the other side of the pipe (right lane of road) - the quickest way for all the fluid (vehicles) to pass through the narrowing (roadworks) is to occupy all of the available pipe (road) and not for some of the fluid (vehicles) to stop or block the other fluid (vehicles) from using their artificially created void (empty right lane).
Of course fluid has no manners and isn't necessarily British - so queuing isn't a problem...
I hope that makes sense
Or unsafely causing an obstruction because of some weird construct in their mind that everyone is pushing in.If it be your will wrote:
And remember, no one is really 'blocking' anything - they're not parking up - they're merely equalising the speed differential between the lanes in order to allow an orderly, fair, and safe merge to occur.
Yep and that stems from the view that if it be your will holds that everyone is pushing in. They aren’t, they are using all of the available road like they are supposed to.BFCmaj wrote:Then surely it’s an education thing. If people were aware of the correct rules, there wouldn’t be a problem. The problem isn’t with the people merging lanes where the cones are, its the people refusing to let them in that’s the problem.
The only reason people are getting angry when this happens is because they aren't following the rules of the road.If it be your will wrote:Okay, I'll tell you what, we'll compromise. I'll promise to stay in my lane (even if it is the one that ultimately becomes obstructed) thereby not pulling over too early and filling that lane too quickly. But so as not to push in, I'll make sure I don't overtake anyone. And like you say, if everyone did this, it would all work perfectly. Then we can all while away our time thinking about fluid dynamics without anyone having to get angry.
Some people don't give a s**t about the rules of the road, sorry to be blunt but it's true, the only time some people will obey the rules of the road is when they see traffic police or a speed camera ect, people just want to get to A or B as soon as possible with the minimum amount of fuss, years ago I can remember my driving instructor telling me he's never encountered so many selfish drivers within the UK & when driving on the continent people are more considerate, I think there's too many vehicles on the road creating some of these problems.BFCmaj wrote:The only reason people are getting angry when this happens is because they aren't following the rules of the road.
Which continent? Can’t have been Europe as most countries I’ve experience there have roads filled with psychopaths. And if you think we’re bad... get yourself on some of the interstates in America and get ready to really experience lawless driving.Jakubclaret wrote:Some people don't give a s**t about the rules of the road, sorry to be blunt but it's true, the only time some people will obey the rules of the road is when they see traffic police or a speed camera ect, people just want to get to A or B as soon as possible with the minimum amount of fuss, years ago I can remember my driving instructor telling me he's never encountered so many selfish drivers within the UK & when driving on the continent people are more considerate, I think there's too many vehicles on the road creating some of these problems.
Not sure to be honest, it’s just something I remembered I never questioned, at the time probably too busy with clutch control on a hill start, 1 of the manoeuvres you may have to demonstrate on your test, glad I passed when I did I believe it’s harder now on the theory with increasing the question bank, at the time I think it was 35 plus the hazard perception which was a doddle.deanothedino wrote:Which continent? Can’t have been Europe as most countries I’ve experience there have roads filled with psychopaths. And if you think we’re bad... get yourself on some of the interstates in America and get ready to really experience lawless driving.
The difference between the graphic and real life, is that in the graphic, every car is waiting its turn. In real life, people are trying to “advance” their position. The trucks and other drivers that deliberately prevent this, are making the zip merging work as it should, by making sure everyone waits their turn.deanothedino wrote:You're just making the queue longer by merging earlier, it's no faster. It is more efficient to use the whole road available and merge in turn (zip merge) to reduce the tailback.
Brits in general have a poor grasp of zip merging.
If everyone actually knew how to zip merge no one would stop moving to allow it to happen.
They really aren't.1fatclaret wrote:The trucks and other drivers that deliberately prevent this, are making the zip merging work as it should, by making sure everyone waits their turn.
Makes you wonder why there's so many bad drivers around doesn't it...Jakubclaret wrote: glad I passed when I did I believe it’s harder now on the theory with increasing the question bank, at the time I think it was 35 plus the hazard perception which was a doddle.
Yes, they really are. If the first car to be in the right hand lane when the lane closure sign appear, stays level with the car to his left, then he moves over in turn. The subsequent cars follow suit. That’s how fluid dynamics work.deanothedino wrote:They really aren't.
"Everyone waiting their turn" would involve all lanes being used until they are unavailable and alternating turns to move over as per the gif. People deliberately preventing people doing this are driving like tossers by sticking to the bumper in front of them and successfully "advancing" their position.
Makes you wonder why there's so many bad drivers around doesn't it...
How about those who don't 'barrel' down the outside lane and just continue to make steady progress before merging? Oh wait, they can't do that because the bell next to them is riding the person in fronts bumper while sat in a queue that has been made worse by all those who love to get over 2 miles before the obstruction.1fatclaret wrote:Yes, they really are. If the first car to be in the right hand lane when the lane closure sign appear, stays level with the car to his left, then he moves over in turn. The subsequent cars follow suit. That’s how fluid dynamics work.
If the first car acts like a **** and barrels up the outside and then forces his way over, the inside lane has to brake, this then causes a ripple effect backwards in the inside lane. That’s also how fluid dynamics works.
They say you learn to drive after you've passed your test when you are by yourself, I disagree once you've passed you tend to pick bad habits up, whereas when you are with your instructor you are more precise indicating at junctions, more cautious with your speed ect, overall on your guard.deanothedino wrote:They really aren't.
"Everyone waiting their turn" would involve all lanes being used until they are unavailable and alternating turns to move over as per the gif. People deliberately preventing people doing this are driving like tossers by sticking to the bumper in front of them and successfully "advancing" their position.
Makes you wonder why there's so many bad drivers around doesn't it...
You do know this is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with merge in turn or zip merging don’t you?Walton wrote:The police clamped down on the Vivary Way queue jumping a few years ago. https://www.pendletoday.co.uk/news/crim ... -1-7133119
There are a number of repeat offenders I used to see every day, one 07 reg Honda Civic cuts in very dangerously on a daily basis, but I now take a different route home and it shaves a good 10 minutes off. Beats queueing in traffic which gets needlessly held up by people having to slam their brakes on because knobheads don't know which lane is which and cut in to gaps which don't exist.
Posts 6, 15 and 17 all referred to this road. I stopped looking once I'd found three references within the thread because I didn't want to waste any more time justifying why my post was relevant within this thread.Rick_Muller wrote:You do know this is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with merge in turn or zip merging don’t you?
Apologies, I was quite abrupt and you are correct in reference to that road. Please forgive my curt response as I misunderstood why you posted what you did.Walton wrote:Posts 6, 15 and 17 all referred to this road. I stopped looking once I'd found three references within the thread because I didn't want to waste any more time justifying why my post was relevant within this thread.
As was I, and without the specific local knowledge you might not have put two and two together as Vivary Way is often mixed up with North Valley Rd, but essentially they're treated as one and the same.Rick_Muller wrote:Apologies, I was quite abrupt and you are correct in reference to that road. Please forgive my curt response as I misunderstood why you posted what you did.
