Ivan Toney

[MACCA]

Toney gets better every time I watch him. Holds it up, feeds team mates, defends and scores.
Time for a striker for the future. Get it done, Mr. Pace.

The time to buy him was in the summer for 5m...

It appears when we are relying to sign players we get gazumped by any other side that wants them once they know the fee needed

That's what we need to do with Brentford, see who they are in for them just buy them. They have z great eye for sporting rough diamonds, especially strikers

[claretfern]

Didn't Peterborough have a few other high scoring centre forwards at the same time? Can't remember their names but i wonder if any of them went on to better things too?

Peterborough currently have their own goalscoring replacement for Toney in Jonson Clarke-Harris. He may be one we would do well to keep an eye on.

[Zlatan]

We don’t have the liberty to buy lower league players and allow them to develop like Brentford do. It’s as simple as that. They can afford to field a less experienced player because they don’t fear relegation from the richest league in the world, we can’t.

[huw.Y.WattfromWare]

We don’t have the liberty to buy lower league players and allow them to develop like Brentford do. It’s as simple as that. They can afford to field a less experienced player because they don’t fear relegation from the richest league in the world, we can’t.

Can’t totally agree with you. At our level every purchase is a risk and even more so for strikers. We are never going to pay £50m for a striker so we have to gamble.
We signed 3 Championship leading scorers. Gray was excellent in getting us promoted but average in the PL, Vydra has taken a season and a half to find his feet and only Chris Wood can be called an immediate success.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

We don’t have the liberty to buy lower league players and allow them to develop like Brentford do. It’s as simple as that. They can afford to field a less experienced player because they don’t fear relegation from the richest league in the world, we can’t.

If Brentford manage to get promoted then its going to be interesting to see if they change their transfer model.

[Dyched]

Can’t totally agree with you. At our level every purchase is a risk and even more so for strikers. We are never going to pay £50m for a striker so we have to gamble.
We signed 3 Championship leading scorers. Gray was excellent in getting us promoted but average in the PL, Vydra has taken a season and a half to find his feet and only Chris Wood can be called an immediate success.

Those 3 had proved themselves in the Championship. Of course any of a signings would be a gamble for the market we work in, but to gamble on players without even Championship experience would be a step to far.

I said it on a thread before, for as well as Brentford might do transfer wise, only 3 players they’ve sold have made it in the Premier League. Tarkowski consistently and the 2 lads at Aston Villa albeit just over half a season.

[tiger76]

Can’t totally agree with you. At our level every purchase is a risk and even more so for strikers. We are never going to pay £50m for a striker so we have to gamble.
We signed 3 Championship leading scorers. Gray was excellent in getting us promoted but average in the PL, Vydra has taken a season and a half to find his feet and only Chris Wood can be called an immediate success.

You call Gray average in the PL, and that's true, but we still doubled our money on him.

The jury is still out on Vydra for me, but I have to admit he's winning me round with his recent showings.

Chris Wood has done well but we did pay £15m for him.

Now there might be some hidden gems in the lower leagues, but even some League 1 strikers have gone for fairly large fees, and there's no certainty they'd be able to make the step up to PL level.

[huw.Y.WattfromWare]

but to gamble on players without even Championship experience would be a step to far.

Now there might be some hidden gems in the lower leagues, but even some League 1 strikers have gone for fairly large fees, and there's no certainty they'd be able to make the step up to PL level.

I think you’ve mis-understood me. I’m not advocating lower league players but good Championship players, like Gray, Vydra & Wood but it would still be a gamble is my point.

[NewClaret]

Now there might be some hidden gems in the lower leagues, but even some League 1 strikers have gone for fairly large fees, and there's no certainty they'd be able to make the step up to PL level.

I think Ollie Watkins, Benrahma and Brewster are all good examples of that. Done well in the Championship but not really taken the PL by storm. So the step up from League One to the PL is an even bigger gap to bridge.

[tiger76]

I think you’ve mis-understood me. I’m not advocating lower league players but good Championship players, like Gray, Vydra & Wood but it would still be a gamble is my point.

That's no doubt true, however good championship players now are £20m+, whereas if we could pick up these types of players before they get poached by Championship clubs we'll be able to snare them for a lot less, and this is where we've fallen down in recent seasons in my view, any signing can be a risk, just look at Ben Gibson for example, most posters on this forum myself included thought we'd nabbed a bargain with him, but for whatever reasons it hasn't worked out as we'd have liked. But if we can reduce the risk and expense then any mistakes can be minimised, and not cost us a substantial amount of capital, which Gibson has done in both fees and wages, and if we can develop a few of these rough diamonds it'll allow us to make a decent profit as was the case with Michael Keane a few years back.

[Jakubclaret]

I think Ollie Watkins, Benrahma and Brewster are all good examples of that. Done well in the Championship but not really taken the PL by storm. So the step up from League One to the PL is an even bigger gap to bridge.

Watkins hasn’t done so bad better than some would have expected, regarding the other 2 you have a case, Benrahma reminds me of poor mans adel taarabt, but West Ham have improved as a team I’m not sure on the level of influence though benrahma has delivered.

[claretandy]

Here's an idea, buy the player from Peterborough, (Toney for example), loan them to Brentford for 6 months to see how they do, they'd get more game time than sat on our bench.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Maybe Brentford should factor in the bottle and character of future signings

[Conroy92]

We don’t have the liberty to buy lower league players and allow them to develop like Brentford do. It’s as simple as that. They can afford to field a less experienced player because they don’t fear relegation from the richest league in the world, we can’t.

Not sure I agree with that, plenty of teams get players in and loan them out for development. There would have been no harm signing Toney for 5m and loaning him to Brentford for a season, surely a better investment than Dale Stephens.

[Rileybobs]

Not sure I agree with that, plenty of teams get players in and loan them out for development. There would have been no harm signing Toney for 5m and loaning him to Brentford for a season, surely a better investment than Dale Stephens.

When we’re struggling to maintain a strong enough first team squad what makes you think that we can afford to sign players for £5m only to loan them straight out for a season?

[Jakubclaret]

When we’re struggling to maintain a strong enough first team squad what makes you think that we can afford to sign players for £5m only to loan them straight out for a season?

We could, it’s a backward mindset from some quarters that’s holding the club from moving forwards, you speculate to accumulate that “£5m” quickly quadruples & perhaps even more if managed wisely. You sign 3/4 every season you are sat on a wise investment with profitable resale or indeed when deemed appropriate slot straight into the first team it’s a completely different ideology as the place to be before the retirement home begins.

[box_of_frogs]

They WILL win that league

How's that WORKING out now?

[claretonthecoast1882]

We could, it’s a backward mindset from some quarters that’s holding the club from moving forwards, you speculate to accumulate that “£5m” quickly quadruples & perhaps even more if managed wisely. You sign 3/4 every season you are sat on a wise investment with profitable resale or indeed when deemed appropriate slot straight into the first team it’s a completely different ideology as the place to be before the retirement home begins.

So we spend 15 - 20m on players not ready to play for us every year, how much do we spend on players who are ready ?


When you take away our total expenses from total income who pays this.

[Conroy92]

When we’re struggling to maintain a strong enough first team squad what makes you think that we can afford to sign players for £5m only to loan them straight out for a season?

But what is the reason we have struggled to maintain a strong enough first team. For me it was the lack of investment over the past few seasons, remember there was 40- 50m at bank when Toney moved for 5m. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing and obviously the money has been earmarked but can't help feel we are missing a trick.
As others have said, by the time they are 20-30m pound strikers they are out of our budget so I'd say trying to develop lower league players is out best chance, especially as we seem to be lacking in the foreign markets too.

[Rileybobs]

We could, it’s a backward mindset from some quarters that’s holding the club from moving forwards, you speculate to accumulate that “£5m” quickly quadruples & perhaps even more if managed wisely. You sign 3/4 every season you are sat on a wise investment with profitable resale or indeed when deemed appropriate slot straight into the first team it’s a completely different ideology as the place to be before the retirement home begins.

You think that we can afford to spend £20m per season plus 4 additional salaries on players who we intend to send straight out to play for another team? Righto.

Cloud cuckoo land.

[claretonthecoast1882]

You think that we can afford to spend £20m per season plus 4 additional salaries on players who we intend to send straight out to play for another team? Righto.

Cloud cuckoo land.

The more you read on here the clearer it becomes that some think the only expense in football is the transfer fee. it is like wages don't exist.

Hopefully none of them are self employed or have any desire to be so

[Jakubclaret]

So we spend 15 - 20m on players not ready to play for us every year, how much do we spend on players who are ready ?


When you take away our total expenses from total income who pays this.

You are not really spending the outlay comes back X4 if not more did you not read the post? We already know what we spend on players DS was the last acquisition I believe, cobbling together a team of 30+ aged players you need sprinklings of youth & a outside plan as mentioned.

[Jakubclaret]

You think that we can afford to spend £20m per season plus 4 additional salaries on players who we intend to send straight out to play for another team? Righto.

Cloud cuckoo land.

The salaries we don’t pay, correct me if I’m wrong the other club pay the wages or some percentage, the outlay comes back anyway, it’s a win win.

[Rileybobs]

But what is the reason we have struggled to maintain a strong enough first team. For me it was the lack of investment over the past few seasons, remember there was 40- 50m at bank when Toney moved for 5m. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing and obviously the money has been earmarked but can't help feel we are missing a trick.
As others have said, by the time they are 20-30m pound strikers they are out of our budget so I'd say trying to develop lower league players is out best chance, especially as we seem to be lacking in the foreign markets too.

It’s quite obvious why we have struggled to maintain a strong enough first team isn’t it? Our income only allows for a playing staff budget of £x - we’re pretty much at that limit. We have to sell/release players to free up space in our squad for new signings.

The idea that we can afford to take £5m punts on players who aren’t even proven in the Championship, only to loan them out to the Championship is the stuff of fantasy. And no doubt championed by the same people who complain about under investment in the first team squad.

[claretonthecoast1882]

You are not really spending the outlay comes back X4 if not more did you not read the post? We already know what we spend on players DS was the last acquisition I believe, cobbling together a team of 30+ aged players you need sprinklings of youth & a outside plan as mentioned.

How old was Pope, Taylor, tarks, Brownhill when they signed then add McNeil for your sprinkling of youth.

[Rileybobs]

You are not really spending the outlay comes back X4 if not more did you not read the post? We already know what we spend on players DS was the last acquisition I believe, cobbling together a team of 30+ aged players you need sprinklings of youth & a outside plan as mentioned.

Ah yes. Those guaranteed 400% returns on investments. Where do I sign up?

[Rileybobs]

The salaries we don’t pay, correct me if I’m wrong the other club pay the wages or some percentage, the outlay comes back anyway, it’s a win win.

We are committed to paying the salary over the duration of the contract. Other clubs aren’t obliged to loan said player from us. Even if they do they may only pay a percentage of the salary. Cloud cuckoo land.

[Jakubclaret]

We are committed to paying the salary over the duration of the contract. Other clubs aren’t obliged to loan said player from us. Even if they do they may only pay a percentage of the salary. Cloud cuckoo land.

Chelsea don’t do too bad out of it, decent players wouldn’t be short on takers.

[Rileybobs]

Chelsea don’t do too bad out of it, decent players wouldn’t be short on takers.

Chelsea

Cloud
Cuckoo
Land

[Jakubclaret]

Chelsea

Cloud
Cuckoo
Land

It’s a backward mindset that stifles progression, you speculate to accumulate.

[Rileybobs]

It’s a backward mindset that stifles progression, you speculate to accumulate.

Something has certainly been stifled of progression.

[Conroy92]

It’s quite obvious why we have struggled to maintain a strong enough first team isn’t it? Our income only allows for a playing staff budget of £x - we’re pretty much at that limit. We have to sell/release players to free up space in our squad for new signings.

The idea that we can afford to take £5m punts on players who aren’t even proven in the Championship, only to loan them out to the Championship is the stuff of fantasy. And no doubt championed by the same people who complain about under investment in the first team squad.

50m at bank. Just let that sink in a minute.

Now to your last sentence " And no doubt championed by the same people who complain about under investment in the first team squad."

Do you actually think we have invested well? Or invested enough? Because we haven't, I think most would acknowledge that the recruitment for the past seasons has been underwhelming, especially when you look at the first sentence I wrote. We had 50m in the bank.

So Riley, were do you go from here? If you don't think it's conceivable for is to sign a player for 5m and develop them then I guess your strategy is either continue renewing the old boys and eventually turn into Stoke or buy players already ready for the prem at a premium (which you've already told us we can't afford). Should we just pack it up rather than trying to invest and improve??

[Zlatan]

The Football Manager brigade are out in force again

[Rileybobs]

50m at bank. Just let that sink in a minute.

Now to your last sentence " And no doubt championed by the same people who complain about under investment in the first team squad."

Do you actually think we have invested well? Or invested enough? Because we haven't, I think most would acknowledge that the recruitment for the past seasons has been underwhelming, especially when you look at the first sentence I wrote. We had 50m in the bank.

So Riley, were do you go from here? If you don't think it's conceivable for is to sign a player for 5m and develop them then I guess your strategy is either continue renewing the old boys and eventually turn into Stoke or buy players already ready for the prem at a premium (which you've already told us we can't afford). Should we just pack it up rather than trying to invest and improve??

And where is the £50m now?

Do you realise that even with £50m in the bank, if we increase our playing staff budget significantly then we will be making a loss? Do you think our fans, or manager, would stomach the first team being even more deprived of players because we have got a few unproven players out on season long loans in the Championship trying to cut their teeth?

Recruitment has definitely been underwhelming. But we look set to finish fairly close to mid table in the Premier League so what we have invested we have obviously invested well.

Your last line is pretty pathetic and is unfortunately the attitude of a number of people on here who seem unable to have a realistic discussion. There is a quite sizeable grey area between signing league 1 players to loan out to just packing in.

I have never run a football club or a comparable business so I don’t know the answer. Increasing revenue in order to increase the playing squad budget is the obvious answer but there’s a limit to how much this can realistically grow and we need to understand that we will not be able to compete financially with 90% of the PL.

I suggest where we maybe could even up the scales somewhat is through innovative scouting giving us the opportunity to tap into previously out of reach markets. Otherwise, and this is the most likely scenario, we will need to rely on selling key assets for large sums every season to fund incoming players.

[Conroy92]

And where is the £50m now?

Do you realise that even with £50m in the bank, if we increase our playing staff budget significantly then we will be making a loss? Do you think our fans, or manager, would stomach the first team being even more deprived of players because we have got a few unproven players out on season long loans in the Championship trying to cut their teeth?

Recruitment has definitely been underwhelming. But we look set to finish fairly close to mid table in the Premier League so what we have invested we have obviously invested well.

Your last line is pretty pathetic and is unfortunately the attitude of a number of people on here who seem unable to have a realistic discussion. There is a quite sizeable grey area between signing league 1 players to loan out to just packing in.

I have never run a football club or a comparable business so I don’t know the answer. Increasing revenue in order to increase the playing squad budget is the obvious answer but there’s a limit to how much this can realistically grow and we need to understand that we will not be able to compete financially with 90% of the PL.

I suggest where we maybe could even up the scales somewhat is through innovative scouting giving us the opportunity to tap into previously out of reach markets. Otherwise, and this is the most likely scenario, we will need to rely on selling key assets for large sums every season to fund incoming players.

Here's me thinking we were having a reasonable debate until you decided to call my last sentence pathetic! I don't know the answer either and I actually agree with you that better scouting is the answer I would come up with although I don't know how to achieve that either! Your last sentence sort of brings me back to the point, how would we rely on selling key assets if we don't invest in order to get them in the first place. It's alright now while we have 3 big assets but at some stage they will go and if we don't reinvest the money wisely we will be in trouble.

[Rileybobs]

Here's me thinking we were having a reasonable debate until you decided to call my last sentence pathetic! I don't know the answer either and I actually agree with you that better scouting is the answer I would come up with although I don't know how to achieve that either! Your last sentence sort of brings me back to the point, how would we rely on selling key assets if we don't invest in order to get them in the first place. It's alright now while we have 3 big assets but at some stage they will go and if we don't reinvest the money wisely we will be in trouble.

There's been discussions on here over the past few days where some posters frame things in such a way that it's either all or nothing - such as your comment that the only options are to either sign league 1 players to loan out or pack in. It doesn't really leave any room to discuss the huge grey area in the middle. But maybe pathetic was a bit un called for, apologies.

Well we have managed successfully to sign players for a pittance and sell for substantial profits for years. Even players like Ings and Tripper, where we didn't get adequate transfer fees for reasons out of our control, were examples of very successful signings.

On our books at the moment I would expect us to get very good money for Tarkowski, Pope and McNeill over the coming few years. I totally agree that we then need to act very wisely to replace those players with a mixture of first-team ready players and uncut gems in order to progress. Transfer business has gone a little stale over the past few seasons, but equally we've been able to retain our best players - so in some ways it's swings and roundabouts.

[Conroy92]

There's been discussions on here over the past few days where some posters frame things in such a way that it's either all or nothing - such as your comment that the only options are to either sign league 1 players to loan out or pack in. It doesn't really leave any room to discuss the huge grey area in the middle. But maybe pathetic was a bit un called for, apologies.

Well we have managed successfully to sign players for a pittance and sell for substantial profits for years. Even players like Ings and Tripper, where we didn't get adequate transfer fees for reasons out of our control, were examples of very successful signings.

On our books at the moment I would expect us to get very good money for Tarkowski, Pope and McNeill over the coming few years. I totally agree that we then need to act very wisely to replace those players with a mixture of first-team ready players and uncut gems in order to progress. Transfer business has gone a little stale over the past few seasons, but equally we've been able to retain our best players - so in some ways it's swings and roundabouts.

Apologies if I came across as all or nothing, I'm not advocating doing this with 3-4 players a year like a poster above, more like one of these every 2-3 years. Like you say in the last paragraph we need to sign a mix of first team ready and uncut gems, occasionally players like Toney come along in the uncut gem mark but are also a gamble, sometimes I think we should take the gamble/investment.

[Oshkoshclaret]

I hope we sign him, so he can be Claret Toney

[Jambounchained]

Brentford apparently after Dion Charles from Accy.

Should we just cut out the middle man and get in there first?

Every striker they sign turn to gold.

[burnleytom]

If Brentford manage to get promoted then its going to be interesting to see if they change their transfer model.

They are probably going to have to change their model whether they get promoted or not. They are surely going to be one of the clubs most hit by the new Brexit regs. No longer will they be able to pick up well scouted players from the second division in France, for example; they won't get permits for them. Be interesting to see if they tweak it and start thinking longer term with their signings and using their Danish club to sign them and then either loan them or sell them at a 'competitive' price to Brentford. Still to be seen whether, if they don't become full internationals, that would actually have any benefit or not. The other tweak they could of course make, is to move their scouting network to the UK entirely and use whatever metrics they currently have (which are clearly successful) to find other players like Toney from the lower leagues. Presuming they exist, of course.

[boatshed bill]

I don't really understand using a player like this as a stick to beat our club with. Since when have we been in a position to be able to afford to sign a player from League One for, say £5m, and loan him out to the Championship to cut his teeth in the hope that he turns out a good'un.

Why not? We have been perfectly happy to buy players for that figure (and much higher) and leave them on the bench for a season, in some cases longer.

[Rileybobs]

Why not? We have been perfectly happy to buy players for that figure (and much higher) and leave them on the bench for a season, in some cases longer.

But a player sitting on our bench is part of the first team squad and can be called upon when needed.

[boatshed bill]

But a player sitting on our bench is part of the first team squad and can be called upon when needed.

True, but what did we do with Wells? I can't remember if he was 5th choice when we loaned him out.

[KRBFC]

Here's an idea, buy the player from Peterborough, (Toney for example), loan them to Brentford for 6 months to see how they do, they'd get more game time than sat on our bench.

THIS, sign from League One, immediately loan to Championship for a year.

[Rileybobs]

True, but what did we do with Wells? I can't remember if he was 5th choice when we loaned him out.

Wells wasn’t signed with the intention of not being used though. He played for a season before we sent him out on loan.

We also spent over £40m in transfer fees that season so were clearly in a stronger financial position than we are now.

[KRBFC]

The idea that we can afford to take £5m punts on players who aren’t even proven in the Championship, only to loan them out to the Championship is the stuff of fantasy.

We literally have a £15M central defender on loan in the Championship right now..... Wells was another.

Wells was never ever going to be good enough, Toney might be. Now imagine if that was Toney we had on loan in the Championship and not Wells. The idea we can fund this for multiple players isn't plausible but it's a smart strategy when signing League One/Two players who might not be ready yet, they continue their development in the Championship then come to us the following season. The fees don't have to be anywhere close to £5M either.

Here's an example, there's a young 20 year old Welsh striker at Plymouth in League One, scoring goals and looks good but not quite PL ready, we sign him for £1.5M in the summer and send him on loan to the Championship. Where's the harm in this? there's some good players in the lower leagues and I'd much rather take a small £1m-2m punt on youth than signing more sh**e like Stephens, Reid, Juke, Sordell etc

[boatshed bill]

Wells wasn’t signed with the intention of not being used though. He played for a season before we sent him out on loan.

Who did we replace him with?

[Rileybobs]

We literally have a £15M central defender on loan in the Championship right now..... Wells was another.

Wells was never ever going to be good enough, Toney might be. Now imagine if that was Toney we had on loan in the Championship and not Wells. The idea we can fund this for multiple players isn't plausible but it's a smart strategy when signing League One/Two players who might not be ready yet, they continue their development in the Championship then come to us the following season. The fees don't have to be anywhere close to £5M either.

Here's an example, there's a young 20 year old Welsh striker at Plymouth in League One, scoring goals and looks good but not quite PL ready, we sign him for £1.5M in the summer and send him on loan to the Championship. Where's the harm in this? there's some good players in the lower leagues and I'd much rather take a small £1m-2m punt on youth than signing more sh**e like Stephens, Reid, Juke, Sordell etc

We didn’t buy Gibson with the intention of sending him out on loan so it’s a totally irrelevant comparison. I’ve talked about Wells in my post above.

It’s fine picking out Toney, but how many of these punts will pay off? And he cost Brentford £5-£10m so not even in the ballpark that you’ve suggested we take a punt on.

And what conveniently keeps being forgotten is that these players need to be paid, for the duration of their contracts. What size of squad do you suggest that we can afford to carry?

[Rileybobs]

Who did we replace him with?

I don’t know. Why?

[boatshed bill]

I don’t know. Why?

I can't remember if we'd brought in a 4th striker when we punted him out, or did we manage with 3?