Sir Gareth Southgate

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:27 am

he's certainly gone up in my estimation but i agree that he's been fortunate with an up and coming squad.

steve1264b · Post by **steve1264b** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:30 am

Ive slept on this.

I think he should resign. He has done the full cycle and there hasnt been an improvement from him. He might have slightly better players but he froze again.

Lets not fool ourselves this was Croatia again. Good start then chasing the ball. He has had 3 years to reflect on that and decide what he would do differently.

He should have tried to get us back on the ball, a blind man on a galloping horse could see they would score.

On penalties, where were the senior pros? Pickford did his job, if the goalie saves 2 you should win.

Herts Clarets · Post by **Herts Clarets** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:36 am

1 shot on target in 120 minutes of football.
0 shots on target in 118 minutes of football

It's what you get when you play 5 at the back and 2 holding midfielders. We have some of the best young attacking talent around and most of it was sat on the bench watching the inevitable unfold. Southgate out thought by a superior coach.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:39 am

steve1264b wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:30 am
Ive slept on this.

I think he should resign. He has done the full cycle and there hasnt been an improvement from him. He might have slightly better players but he froze again.

Eh?

On what basis has there not been an improvement from him?

Check out our results and team from the last Euros to this.

Check out our results and team from the previous World Cup to 2014.

Even on a personal level he’s gone from semi-final to final.

We managed the tournament better, no suspensions, team were fresher despite playing more games, we’ve won penalty shoot-outs under him, beat a big team in knockout competition.

On what level has there not been an improvement? Every conceivable metric has bettered.

Maybe have a bit more sleep.

steve1264b · Post by **steve1264b** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:55 am

Except the game that mattered, both are virtually identical.

No possession, he couldnt or wouldnt change the game.

I think he was outcoached by mancini as he was in Russia.

Dont confuse team improvement with managerial improvement.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:02 am

Tactically inept
We got this far in spite of him, not because of him.

Although he has admitted the penalty takers were selected by him, so fair enough, it wasnt the senior pros decision whether to step up or not.

If Rashford runs up and slaps it down the middle, we wake up European Champions, and Southgate's limitations go unseen for a while longer.

mikeS · Post by **mikeS** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:18 am

Well done to Gareth Southgate and the team. Proud of you.
A sad end but there you go. The harsh reality of penalty shoot outs. It Hurts but we will bounce back. That's what we do.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:22 am

Not brave enough when it mattered.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:35 am

I think he'll resign...ifs buts and maybe's the lads done Well and conducted himself in a positive manner. But Sadly Kane and sterling Were Absent when it really mattered.....that's got to Hurt! On the penalties stop the Fcuking showboating. Some foreign guy got Lucky once.thats all it was

jedi_master · Post by **jedi_master** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:38 am

We'd have all taken reaching the Final but losing on penalties pre-tournament - I would have anyway. You cannot argue with the fact he has got us to a World Cup Semi and a Euros Final in the space of three years, that marks him out as second only to Ramsey and above Bobby Robson/Terry Venables as our greatest England manager, no?

However, I cannot ignore some failings last night. Penalties are penalties, it's as much a game of luck as it is anything else. I think the players who should be questioned about last night are the likes of Raheem Sterling and Jack Grealish, how they can sit on the Wembley turf and let a 19 year old go up and take a deciding penalty before themselves is beyond me. Taking them well in training is one thing, but it's a different game in that situation to St George's Park - it takes a big personality with an inner belief I don't think someone of Saka's age and experience could yet hope to have.

On the subject of Saka, I thought he was a terrible choice as the 'game changing' sub. When Italy equalised and pushing for a winner, the game was crying out for some pace, width and someone to win us free-kicks. Southgate should have shown more ambition to push for the winner at that point in normal time for me and brought on Sancho and Grealish rather than Henderson and Saka. Sancho had one game in this tournament, against Ukraine, and was excellent. We had no penetration and looked tired. Saka unfortunately looked like a little boy lost with some terrible touches and offered nothing in terms of width or threat. The media love in for him after a solid performance against the Czech's has been a little overboard. He is a long way behind the likes of Sancho and Grealish at this point in his career and it will forever be something I look back at in this game and think "What if?".

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:38 am

There was some ignorant nonsense talked about Italy from day 1 of the tournament. Some saying they hadn't beat anyone in their unbeaten run, dumb comments claiming good teams will beat them due to the age of their centre halves. They beat Belgium & Spain then played us in our own stadium, we got a goal start, their best performer out injured and we still wouldn't go at them.

Swop managers and we win that game.

Mancini not afraid to take off players either not performing or big names.

Southgate sadly terrified of moving away from his 7 - 8 defensive player formations.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:47 am

The telltale would be if Southgate were to leave his position as England boss.

Despite his record with England, I think he would still struggle to get a PL Managers job.

He could only beat the teams in front of him at the end of the day but anyone has to admit he was very fortunate with the teams that fell our way.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:57 am

jedi_master wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:38 am

However, I cannot ignore some failings last night. Penalties are penalties, it's as much a game of luck as it is anything else. I think the players who should be questioned about last night are the likes of Raheem Sterling and Jack Grealish, how they can sit on the Wembley turf and let a 19 year old go up and take a deciding penalty before themselves is beyond me.

Gareth has said he picked the penalty takers, it wasnt a case of asking who wanted one, more him saying who took them based on what they've done for their club, and what he saw in training.
That's why he made those subs right at the end, they were the players HE wanted to take penalties.
He said they prepared as much as possible, it just wasn't to be.

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:02 am

If he leaves I honestly think Dyche would be fantastic for England. Apart from Dyche who exactly is going to better Southgate? Another foreign tactical genius? Another questionable English manager like Howe or Potter?

There's no stand out candidate. I think it's about as good as it gets if you want someone in the job who's hearts in it.

He may not be tactically astute but he's very good at the others parts of his job, which traditionally past managers haven't been.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:04 am

I often say you can't win a penalty shoot out, only lose it.

Nobody remembers those who score and at some point someone misses.

There is no right way to take a penalty and there is no wrong way. There is only goal or no goal.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:07 am

MACCA wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:57 am
Gareth has said he picked the penalty takers, it wasnt a case of asking who wanted one, more him saying who took them based on what they've done for their club, and what he saw in training.
That's why he made those subs right at the end, they were the players HE wanted to take penalties.
He said they prepared as much as possible, it just wasn't to be.

What they’ve done for their club Saka has never taken a penalty for Arsenal

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:10 am

And, given the near lottery conditions of the shootout, it didn't work out for us but did for the Italians - who missed two, don't forget.
Fine margins but Rashford's penalty trickery was so good the Player of the Tournament was sent the wrong way leaving Rashford ample time to poke it anywhere to the other side.
How in God's name he missed, we'll never know but the damage was done. Cue racist nonsense, rewriting Southgate as a useless, defence-obsessed bore rather than a shrewd operator with perfect use of the assets at his disposal, our luck in having such an easy passage etc etc.
We wondered about how fickle Burnley fans are...

williamjblazkowicz · Post by **williamjblazkowicz** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:19 am

There'll be plenty of criticism aimed at Southgate after the loss but it just goes to show how fickle fans can be. A small change in the sequence of events during penalties and he's a hero (some will try to deny that but we all know that they're kidding themselves). I think he's done a great job overall. We've got an exciting young team that is only going to get better. They genuinely seem to be a close group and they seem to respect the manager.

We've reached the semi-final of a World Cup and the final of the Euros. We've made real progress since that embarrassing loss to Iceland in 2016. Losing on penalties is hard but I think we can be proud of what we've achieved. I really feel for the young lads who missed the penalties. It takes courage to take one and I can only hope that the experience (although ultimately negative) will make them stronger going forward.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:27 am

Heh. People banging on about getting rid of a manager who has got us to a WC semi-final and a Euro final. And yep, he did get it wrong last night, but so did Guardiol in the CL final, but I didn't 'hear' many Citeh fans asking for him to go.

Anyway, cheer up. The new season is nearly upon us. UTC!

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:29 am

If the ghost of Maradona had risen from hell and punched in 4 goals while England were 3-0 up, and it ended 4-3, some of you would still be trying to convince the rest of us that Southgate's failure to prepare for it means it's his fault.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:39 am

The only one getting any blame should be Marcus Rashford. Why he decided to act “cool” and do whatever he did at the penally was embarrassing. 55 year wait for a final and he does that. Stop thinking you’re Mbappe and strike the ball.

Gareth Southgate should stay, but I hope he’s on the phone to Jamie Vardy this morning, begging for him to come back.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:46 am

His tactics last night summed up his time at Middlesbrough- a failure.

ClaretMov · Post by **ClaretMov** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:46 am

Wrong starting line up
Wrong formation
Wrong penalty takers

Other than that Southgate did well

RicardoMontalban · Post by **RicardoMontalban** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:47 am

Dyched wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:39 am
The only one getting any blame should be Marcus Rashford. Why he decided to act “cool” and do whatever he did at the penally was embarrassing. 55 year wait for a final and he does that. Stop thinking you’re Mbappe and strike the ball.

Gareth Southgate should stay, but I hope he’s on the phone to Jamie Vardy this morning, begging for him to come back.

Good grief, no one is to blame. He took a penalty and missed.

34 year old Jamie Vardy is not the future of the England team.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:47 am

JohnMac wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:04 am
I often say you can't win a penalty shoot out, only lose it.

Nobody remembers those who score and at some point someone misses.

There is no right way to take a penalty and there is no wrong way. There is only goal or no goal.

Course a right way exists to take a penalty, first & foremost you need to hit the target, the keeper saves that’s usually unlucky not hitting the target at all or not making the keeper work is poor even at amateur level.

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:48 am

Dyched wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:39 am
The only one getting any blame should be Marcus Rashford. Why he decided to act “cool” and do whatever he did at the penally was embarrassing. 55 year wait for a final and he does that. Stop thinking you’re Mbappe and strike the ball.

Gareth Southgate should stay, but I hope he’s on the phone to Jamie Vardy this morning, begging for him to come back.

Rashford had a plan to beat the goalkeeper, which worked. It wasn't about acting "cool". WTF are you smoking?

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am

I heard that Donnarumma's won his last 5 penalty shootouts. Hear me out here but what if the reason England lost the penalty shootout is because Italy had a ******* man-beast in goal for it?

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:52 am

PeterWilton wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am
I heard that Donnarumma's won his last 5 penalty shootouts. Hear me out here but what if the reason England lost the penalty shootout is because Italy had a ******* man-beast in goal for it?

This and also every shootout in this tournament was won by the team taking the first pen.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:53 am

RicardoMontalban wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:47 am
Good grief, no one is to blame. He took a penalty and missed.

34 year old Jamie Vardy is not the future of the England team.

He didn’t just take a penalty. He tried to be smart and got himself off balance before he hit it.

Chiellini isn’t the future for Italy.

Jamie Vardy plays to the strengths of different players in this squad. Grealish, Foden, Mount all cater to him better than Harry Kane. I’m not saying drop Kane, but had Vardy been available last night it’s a different game. Italy can have the ball in our half all they want, their defence will still be working hard to keep Vardy quite.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:53 am

PeterWilton wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:48 am
Rashford had a plan to beat the goalkeeper, which worked. It wasn't about acting "cool". WTF are you smoking?

It worked?

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:54 am

PeterWilton wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:48 am
Rashford had a plan to beat the goalkeeper, which worked. It wasn't about acting "cool". WTF are you smoking?

The plan didn’t work if the plan would have worked he would have scored, if I plan to rob a bank & the plan to get into vault works but I’m rumbled & leave the bank empty handed the plan as failed. What a strange oddball interpretation of a plan functioning but ending in failure.

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:55 am

Dyched wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:53 am
It worked?

Yes. He beat the goalkeeper.

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:57 am

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:54 am
The plan didn’t work if the plan would have worked he would have scored, if I plan to rob a bank & the plan to get into vault works but I’m rumbled & leave the bank empty handed the plan as failed. What a strange oddball interpretation of a plan functioning but ending in failure.

If you plan to defeat the vault's lock, and you get into the vault, you've defeated its lock. Just because you got caught afterwards doesn't mean you didn't defeat the lock.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:57 am

PeterWilton wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:55 am
Yes. He beat the goalkeeper.

I’m not so sure beating the goalkeeper but missing the target counts.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:58 am

PeterWilton wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:57 am
If you plan to defeat the vault's lock, and you get into the vault, you've defeated its lock. Just because you got caught afterwards doesn't mean you didn't defeat the lock.

It’s no consolation or measure of success, ultimately I’ve failed, I’ve not achieved my objective.

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:59 am

We had them on the backfoot, scored early and, it was a decent first half against a very good Italian side.
The whole thing changed second half, sitting back...then being pushed back. There was only one team going to win.
We'd no outlet. Kane became redundant.
Even their brilliant CBs struggled at times to cope with our system first half. It was real 'rabbit in the headlights' stuff from England in the second.
It was down to Southgate.
He comes across as a decent bloke, and sometimes a decent coach/manager. But his limitations were cruelly exposed again last night. And with probably the most talented squad of individual English players in 50 years.
I'd personally preferred to have lost having a go, trying to cause them problems rather than sitting in a trench.

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:59 am

Have none of you ever heard anyone say "the goalkeeper was beaten" when a player has shot at goal and narrowly missed? What kind of football fans have never heard that term before in that context?

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:00 am

This is the thing for me ……

The desire to apportion blame, the desire to criticise when perfection is missed.

Bottler ….. failure …. sideline critics saying they’d do it differently from their sofa.

Sometimes you come up short. Sometimes you make decisions which don’t work out. There can only be one winner in a tournament, so by the rationale of some on here everybody else involved is a failure.

Let me tell you ….. if that’s your mentality you’re setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment. Christ …. we’ve been criticised at times through this for not winning the right way.

We did better than we have ever done in this tournament. EVER.

Our last two tournaments have been semi and losing finalist. You can go on about he quality of players being responsible for this …… but the Golden Generation didn’t get near this level of success. In the 70’s, when English sides ruled Europe, we didn’t even qualify for a tournament.

Sometimes you come up short. That’s life. This mad rush to apportion blame for it is baffling.

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:02 am

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:58 am
It’s no consolation or measure of success, ultimately I’ve failed, I’ve not achieved my objective.

So? I never said his plan to score worked. I was responding to a pig-ignorant piece of criticism which was aimed at the part of the spot-kick which was intended to give Rashford everything he needed to beat the keeper. That part of the spotkick worked perfectly because he sent the ball the opposite way to the keeper.

What is your problem? How is this hard to understand? Are you trolling?

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:05 am

Socrates wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:00 am
This is the thing for me ……

The desire to apportion blame, the desire to criticise when perfection is missed.

Bottler ….. failure …. sideline critics saying they’d do it differently from their sofa.

Sometimes you come up short. Sometimes you make decisions which don’t work out. There can only be one winner in a tournament, so by the rationale of some on here everybody else involved is a failure.

Let me tell you ….. if that’s your mentality you’re setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment. Christ …. we’ve been criticised at times through this for not winning the right way.

We did better than we have ever done in this tournament. EVER.

Our last two tournaments have been semi and losing finalist. You can go on about he quality of players being responsible for this …… but the Golden Generation didn’t get near this level of success. In the 70’s, when English sides ruled Europe, we didn’t even qualify for a tournament.

Sometimes you come up short. That’s life. This mad rush to apportion blame for it is baffling.

Watching the England team made me want the England team to win. Watching the England fans afterwards makes me feel much less sad that they didn't. England fans are the worst fans in the world. No wonder every other country wanted them to lose.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:07 am

PeterWilton wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:02 am
So? I never said his plan to score worked. I was responding to a pig-ignorant piece of criticism which was aimed at the part of the spot-kick which was intended to give Rashford everything he needed to beat the keeper. That part of the spotkick worked perfectly because he sent the ball the opposite way to the keeper.

What is your problem? How is this hard to understand? Are you trolling?

Plan works = goal scored, Plan fails = goal missed. It’s extremely easy to understand I’m suggesting the difficulty is with you!

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:09 am

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:07 am
Plan works = goal scored, Plan fails = goal missed. It’s extremely easy to understand I’m suggesting the difficulty is with you!

Just give up. All those years Roberto Baggio has been remembered for his miss, but he “beat” the goalkeeper

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:11 am

Socrates wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:00 am

Sometimes you come up short. That’s life.

But that attitude is the reason why England have won bugger all for 55 years. Italy failed to qualify for the last World Cup, but did something about it.

We'll just feel sorry for ourselves, like we always do.

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:12 am

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:07 am
Plan works = goal scored, Plan fails = goal missed. It’s extremely easy to understand I’m suggesting the difficulty is with you!

Look. They guy criticised his run up as trying to act "cool", because he doesn't have a clue what he's on about. I pointed out the actual purpose of the run up was to have the keeper reveal which side he was diving.

THAT WORKED. Obviously.

RicardoMontalban · Post by **RicardoMontalban** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:15 am

Dyched wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:53 am
He didn’t just take a penalty. He tried to be smart and got himself off balance before he hit it.

Chiellini isn’t the future for Italy.

Jamie Vardy plays to the strengths of different players in this squad. Grealish, Foden, Mount all cater to him better than Harry Kane. I’m not saying drop Kane, but had Vardy been available last night it’s a different game. Italy can have the ball in our half all they want, their defence will still be working hard to keep Vardy quite.

Comparing Chiellini- the 110+ cap captain of Italy and Jamie, 20 something cap, Vardy is apples and oranges. Totally different and while Chiellini may well be at the end of his career he’s just lifted the European Championship for his country, and even allowing for the fact they play in different positions is a class above Vardy. And it may well have been a different game were Vardy playing. We may have lost before the shout out.

As others have said, Rashford took his penalty, beat the keeper, hit the post. Would you have been happier if he’d leathered it over the bar like Waddle? The constant searching for someone to blame is so weird. We lost, in a final, on pens, to an excellent team.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:15 am

All of Italy's penalty takers had been on the field of play either for the entire 120 minutes of play or at least for the full period of extra time.

Two of England's penalty takers were not bought on until the 120 minute marker had passed and both missed their spot kicks.

Asking players to make their first touch of the ball a winning spot kick is not a tactic that Mancini considered worth using.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:18 am

PeterWilton wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:12 am
Look. They guy criticised his run up as trying to act "cool", because he doesn't have a clue what he's on about. I pointed out the actual purpose of the run up was to have the keeper reveal which side he was diving.

THAT WORKED. Obviously.

Look it’s 50/50 which ever way the Italian keeper went, it’s a left & a right, if you are crediting rashford for having some sort of a success in a missed penalty because the keeper dived the wrong way (50% chance he would have done that anyway) & then failing to hit a gaping goal I don’t know what to say.

PeterWilton · Post by **PeterWilton** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:20 am

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:18 am
Look it’s 50/50 which ever way the Italian keeper went, it’s a left & a right, if you are crediting rashford for having some sort of a success in a missed penalty because the keeper dived the wrong way (50% chance he would have done that anyway) & then failing to hit a gaping goal I don’t know what to say.

I'm not crediting him. I'm debunking a dumb and ignorant criticism of his technique.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:25 am

PeterWilton wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:20 am
I'm not crediting him. I'm debunking a dumb and ignorant criticism of his technique.

The criticism is that a professional footballer with the goal at his absolute mercy as somehow inexplicably failed to score, if you think it’s unfair that people are criticising that technique, again I don’t know what to say, I’ve seen better penalties dispatched in the Saturday Pendle charity league.

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:30 am

I do wonder if there might be something of a player revolt after last night.

He basically threw Rashford, Sancho and Saka under a bus with the penalty debacle. Yes, they probably should do better but chucking them on with one minute to go and expecting them to win it for him is a bit naughty, especially after the bit part tournament they’ve both had. Almost like he was admitting they weren’t good enough to win it for him in normal time (when they most certainly are) and expecting them to pull us out of the **** at the death.

Grealish and Trippier certainly didn’t seem impressed at the end, although that might just have been down to pure deflation.