HS2

[Lancasterclaret]

Before anyone else is thinking of posting on the subject may I suggest you set aside 30 minutes to listen to this chap who seems to know what he's talking about.

I found him very well informed on the subject of HS2 indeed.

Scroll down to the bottom for the interview:

https://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/ ... eth-dennis

The expert I was on about at the start is the editor of that magazine I think

[joey13]

Wasn’t there a conference last week extolling the virtues of cleaner travel

[KateR]

an improvement and revamp is long overdue, it's going to be very expensive, which ever way you do it or, which ever party kicks it off, it's long term and as mentioned over numerous governments There are so many benefits to doing it though and the actual time cut off a journey is probably the least important.

I think the long term ramifications to not doing will be much worse overall.

[Billy Balfour]

Interestingly a tory MP has pointed out that it wasn't a case of HS2 OR the massive investment in the northern powerhouse rail project, it was supposed to be both. So the £96 billion still leaves the North way short of where it would have been.

Yes, it was both. HS2 AND massive investment in new and existing rail infrastructure. It's another election manifesto betrayal. We've had over 10 years of this Northern Powerhouse BS. More like the Northern Poorhouse when compared to South East spending per-head. Basically, this is what Ringo said upthread.

[RingoMcCartney]

You voted for a Tory government, you got a Tory government.



So what was your "thinking" when you voted for a party that has a history of shitting on the northern working classes?

No need to answer btw, let's not make this thread about you. I should have known better than to reply to you in the first place.

I'll tell you what I was thinking.

That I'd avoid voting for a party that has a history of shitting on the northern working classes?









The Labour Party......

[Lancasterclaret]

Small print of the new Integrated Rail Plan doesn't look good

https://twitter.com/StephenJoseph7/stat ... 5518532609

[Billy Balfour]

Small print of the new Integrated Rail Plan doesn't look good

https://twitter.com/StephenJoseph7/stat ... 5518532609

It's a 'get out clause'. This is all about saving face in the short term after a couple of tumultuous weeks.

[Burnley1989]

Whilst I did think it’s was a ridiculous amount of money, I can’t see the Tories doing to well next time around…

[Stayingup]

I think the idea of a huge national infrastructure revamp connecting the major cities is massively over due (France TGVs have been running for over 40 years)

But just building it between London, Birmingham and then to a village outside Leicester is a complete waste of time

And we desperately need investment in the infrastructure in the north, and I fear that we are going to be let down again on that one

TGV is good - when its running properly - I have used it on it many occasion. I think.though that in France it being more than twice the size of UK it will be more useful. Many of the TGV stations in France are actually located outside the cities. How that would work I'm not sure.

[Stayingup]

My MP is in charge of the Northern Powerhouse. He must be embarrased that he is MP.for the biggest borough in England without a commercial railway line. There was one via Bury to Manchester but Dr Beeching put paid to that. Northern working place you see.

[Billy Balfour]

The best way to get major infrastructure projects off the ground (here in the UK) and to see them through to fruition, is to get cross-party agreement and then enshrine this in law. It can be done. Parties work together all the time in the committees stages, and this is where most of the hard work is done regarding legislation - not the circus of PMQs. We once built an empire and were at the heart of the industrial revolution - now we are ruled by short-termism (see the get out clause above for the new, watered-down proposals).

[Lancasterclaret]

TGV is good - when its running properly - I have used it on it many occasion. I think.though that in France it being more than twice the size of UK it will be more useful. Many of the TGV stations in France are actually located outside the cities. How that would work I'm not sure.

I was using TGV as an example because it was set up 40 years ago. Thats 40 years ago!

In that time we've effectively gone nowhere

[Lancasterclaret]

It's a 'get out clause'. This is all about saving face in the short term after a couple of tumultuous weeks.

It looks like that potentially nothing that is being announced today is guaranteed

If I was a Red Wall Con MP I'd wouldn't be making long term employment plans

[elwaclaret]

I had no view as to HS2 as a stand alone project. The need to update the rail system is appear et to anyone north of Birmingham. However, the change in care fees and the cancellation of HS2 demonstrates that the Conservatives will always take the easy option of pulling back to their southern heartland when money becomes tight… which is always a couple of years away due to constant short termism. In the meantime billions of pounds of taxpayers money is once again written off like spare change, not to mention the destroyed pre Roman roads that have already been destroyed… roads that have completely altered our understanding of pre- Roman Britain and required years of careful investigation destroyed for a great white elephant.

I never imagined a way Starmer could wrestle power at the next election, over the last week I have to say it is difficult to see how Labour cannot mop up the North at levels not seen since the mid 1970’s

[martin_p]

It looks like that potentially nothing that is being announced today is guaranteed

If I was a Red Wall Con MP I'd wouldn't be making long term employment plans

It’s fairly standard for big government projects to be honest, especially when they span multiple spending periods.

[Lancasterclaret]

It’s fairly standard for big government projects to be honest, especially when they span multiple spending periods.

It is, but normally that is because the government changes.

Its been the same lot in power now for over a decade.

[elwaclaret]

If I was a gambling man I might of had a fiver on Boris not making it to Christmas.

[TheFamilyCat]

If I was a gambling man I might of had a fiver on Boris not making it to Christmas.

He's proving himself to be the liability that a lot of people knew him to be.

[jrgbfc]

They made sure they found the money for crossrail first obviously. What the North could do with is a really good line running East to West. You could connect Liverpool-Manchester-Bradford-Leeds-Hull properly with a good, modern service and take some of the strain off the M62, which just wasn't designed for the volume of traffic it has to deal with now.

[Devils_Advocate]

As useless as he his and as much as a liability he is Johnson is still (for some unknown reason) a vote winner for a lot of people. There are vast amounts of people who pay no attention to whats really happening politically and Johnson is great for these people.

Im not sure how long Johnson will survive but its a tough one for the Tories whilst on one hand he's useless and making a complete mess of everything and started to divide the Westminster party and probably local conservative who are politically active but on the other hand he's like Teflon when it comes to a lot of the public who the Tories want to get votes from.

Its a bit like Trump in America. Trumps been shown to be a complete crook and charlatan and a useless President but thousands of Americans still love him and are desperate to have him back and he would probably be the republican candidate who would trouble the Dems the most at the next election

[bfcjg]

To quote Game of Thrones "The North remembers" .

[Billy Balfour]

A better bet is that he won't lead them into the next GE. His Tory Party leadership victory was always a Faustian pact. He wasn't well liked (in the CPP) and many deplored his numerous flaws and outright opportunism, but they knew he would do a job for them. They'll ditch him as soon as he becomes a liability. The Tories are successful because they always ditch leaders when their best-before-date is up.

[TheFamilyCat]

To quote Game of Thrones "The North remembers" .

They forgot the miners.

[Lancasterclaret]

To quote Game of Thrones "The North remembers" .

Except they clearly didn't

[Stayingup]

That's what you voted for.

Aye and imagine having voted for a terrorist supporting Jew hating communist instead

[Stayingup]

As useless as he his and as much as a liability he is Johnson is still (for some unknown reason) a vote winner for a lot of people. There are vast amounts of people who pay no attention to whats really happening politically and Johnson is great for these people.

Im not sure how long Johnson will survive but its a tough one for the Tories whilst on one hand he's useless and making a complete mess of everything and started to divide the Westminster party and probably local conservative who are politically active but on the other hand he's like Teflon when it comes to a lot of the public who the Tories want to get votes from.

Its a bit like Trump in America. Trumps been shown to be a complete crook and charlatan and a useless President but thousands of Americans still love him and are desperate to have him back and he would probably be the republican candidate who would trouble the Dems the most at the next election

Maybe we might see the Leeds lady in charge. She certainly has more about her than most of her colleagues. The reason Bunter is still popular is, I would have thought obvious, just look at the useless oppostion tearing themsleves apart over what to many are not major issues. The northen houswife wants to know if she has enough money to put food on the table and these 'side' issues are not a priority.

[Stayingup]

I was using TGV as an example because it was set up 40 years ago. Thats 40 years ago!

In that time we've effectively gone nowhere

We mainly meaning the North I presume? Although the lines from the west country to the capital are apparently awful. You watch Michael Portillo in small villages in the south, in his programmes. They have a railway lines and stations, but some post industrial large towns and boroughs. Leigh is a fine example, Rossendale another, don't have a commercial line.

[elwaclaret]

I think the best thing all round is for the Kingdom of Northumbria should be returned to Scotland, then we can all vote with the Jocks and leave Angle-land to the South and east as it was originally.

[JohnDearyMe]

Why does rail travel cost so much in this country. A sleeper train across half of Australia is cheaper than a train from Leeds to London. How is that right?

Why is rail travel so expensive in the UK compared to other countries?

Because we were sold the fallacy that privatisation would somehow inject competition into the rail system and drive down prices whilst infrastructure was improved.

Still at least Richard Branson and a few others have done well from it all.

[Spijed]

By the time HS2 is built you'll probably be looking at the best part of £100 if not more for a single ticket.

[conyoviejo]

By the time HS2 is built you'll probably be looking at the best part of £100 if not more for a single ticket.

If it's anything like it is now that will be £101 return then.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I’ve just read the document, not one mention of Burnley or East Lancs. 45 mentions of Sheffield but we’ve been shafted too, it was all about extra capacity so we’re not packed cheek to jowl on the slow rumbler to Manchester. Now that’s gone.

This has Treasury fingerprints all over it - wouldn’t matter which politicians were in charge, the Treasury run on a strict business case basis and there is no way the North is VFM on a short term view, too many geographical complexities and packed communities. It needed overruling but I suspect Covid has done for that, used all the money up.

People like Burnham aren’t off the hook either - e.g. trying to expand Metrolink to Marple is one of the things that has made the Sheffield improvements to Manchester harder, same track. Joining the cities is of pivotal importance, these mayors just think of their own patch.

Just generally dispiriting. Can’t see anything changing if Labour get in, we’ll still struggle to get about by train and get everyone to dispose of their cars.

[Lancasterclaret]

I’ve just read the document, not one mention of Burnley or East Lancs. 45 mentions of Sheffield but we’ve been shafted too, it was all about extra capacity so we’re not packed cheek to jowl on the slow rumbler to Manchester. Now that’s gone.

This has Treasury fingerprints all over it - wouldn’t matter which politicians were in charge, the Treasury run on a strict business case basis and there is no way the North is VFM on a short term view, too many geographical complexities and packed communities. It needed overruling but I suspect Covid has done for that, used all the money up.

People like Burnham aren’t off the hook either - e.g. trying to expand Metrolink to Marple is one of the things that has made the Sheffield improvements to Manchester harder, same track. Joining the cities is of pivotal importance, these mayors just think of their own patch.

Just generally dispiriting. Can’t see anything changing if Labour get in, we’ll still struggle to get about by train and get everyone to dispose of their cars.

Thing is, its pretty clear that this lot don't have a plan for the north, so to vote for them again would be expecting more of the same

[TheFamilyCat]

I’ve just read the document, not one mention of Burnley or East Lancs. 45 mentions of Sheffield but we’ve been shafted too, it was all about extra capacity so we’re not packed cheek to jowl on the slow rumbler to Manchester. Now that’s gone.

This has Treasury fingerprints all over it - wouldn’t matter which politicians were in charge, the Treasury run on a strict business case basis and there is no way the North is VFM on a short term view, too many geographical complexities and packed communities. It needed overruling but I suspect Covid has done for that, used all the money up.

People like Burnham aren’t off the hook either - e.g. trying to expand Metrolink to Marple is one of the things that has made the Sheffield improvements to Manchester harder, same track. Joining the cities is of pivotal importance, these mayors just think of their own patch.

Just generally dispiriting. Can’t see anything changing if Labour get in, we’ll still struggle to get about by train and get everyone to dispose of their cars.

Connecting Sheffield and Manchester was never part of the plan was it? Unless you mean via the originally planned Leeds - Manchester route.

[ClaretFelix]

In my view it isnt needed. We don't half know how to waste money.
If people want to get to London a bit sooner, get out of bed a bit earlier and get the earlier train. Spend the money filling the coffers that have been hit with furlough payments or divert to NHS services to get them back on track.

WFH is being encouraged more and more so the journey to the city with streets paved with Gold won't be needed, especially by 2040.
Updating local infrastructure for the electric vehicle would be far more beneficial, as would research and development of a viable alternative to fossil fuels without blighting the beautiful landscapes of Britain with the ever expanding windfarms, which have largely shown not to be worth the investment.

[bfcjg]

Except they clearly didn't

We were blatantly lied to about HS2 that is what will be recalled at the next election.

[Lancasterclaret]

We were blatantly lied to about HS2 that is what will be recalled at the next election.

Again, my point is that you said "The North remembers" and by voting for them last time (for whatever reason) does rather suggest that the north did not in fact remember

[KateR]

The Leeds/Manchester H2S was at least 20 years away, it's a major infrastructure project and costs would have more than doubled well before then and probably canceled watered down before it started. From what I understand the funds from canceling will be allocated to improving the rail travel in the north and much earlier, it's not as though they've said canceled and we're doing nothing.

I'm not saying it's a good thing but perhaps there will be more benefit and sooner to northern rail users in the East West direction, it's a huge undertaking and if certain groups have identified better use of funds and over a shorter period then those things need to be looked at and if correct changed.

[Lancasterclaret]

The Leeds/Manchester H2S was at least 20 years away, it's a major infrastructure project and costs would have more than doubled well before then and probably canceled watered down before it started. From what I understand the funds from canceling will be allocated to improving the rail travel in the north and much earlier, it's not as though they've said canceled and we're doing nothing.

I'm not saying it's a good thing but perhaps there will be more benefit and sooner to northern rail users in the East West direction, it's a huge undertaking and if certain groups have identified better use of funds and over a shorter period then those things need to be looked at and if correct changed.

I think I'd prefer some long term decision making for the better to be honest

Its not just rail infrastructure btw, if we are serious about a green revolution then we need to be starting a lot of stuff right now, and explaining to people the costs but also the benefits

[BabylonClaret]

Infrastructure projects are well spent. There are huge ongoing benefits for the economy and communities. Back "in the day" capitalist engineers and landowners funded them on the back of exploitation of cheap labour etc.

These days only really Governments can afford the investment so thats why all this stuff should be nationally owned and deiven/managed.

It's simply saving money so they can drop feed some of it back to those towns they won in the North in a few years. Mark my words we will see some local islands of money going to places like the North East, east coast and yes east lancs too so they can keep those seats in the next election. But getting the investment int he infrastructure would have been better long term

[KateR]

I think I'd prefer some long term decision making for the better to be honest

Its not just rail infrastructure btw, if we are serious about a green revolution then we need to be starting a lot of stuff right now, and explaining to people the costs but also the benefits

no disagreements from me on any of that, these large projects need a lot of planning and I know from experience that a lot of them change part of the way through, you saw the costs for the Elizabeth line spiral, this is absolutely typical. Schedule and cost control is essential or it will quickly get away from you, with severe consequences.

This green revolution is going to be a nightmare for planning and control, worse than H2S in my mind because it will be lots of independent projects but with overlapping interfaces.

[Damo]

Screenshot_20211118-164131_Twitter.jpg (514.39 KiB) Viewed 2507 times

[CrosspoolClarets]

Connecting Sheffield and Manchester was never part of the plan was it? Unless you mean via the originally planned Leeds - Manchester route.

There were two options considered, both rejected, one was for a new line (I think this involved a tunnel under the Peaks) and one was a branch onto the HS2 eastern bit. The original NPR vision was joining up all the major cities. These schemes obviously cost money when you have a spine of mountains up the country.

In the end they have rejected both options and are just upgrading the current line, which is just a sticking plaster. The bit I mentioned about Burnham wanting to expand Metrolink limits the potential future capacity on this existing line, to say the trains are rammed now doesn’t do it justice. It isn’t just standing room only, you can’t even get your coffee to your lips a lot of the time without elbowing somebody in the guts.

Saying that though, living in a major city is miles away from living in East Lancs, rail wise. My heart goes out to everyone there. The occasional quickish route to somewhere major but quite rare.

[bfcjg]

Again, my point is that you said "The North remembers" and by voting for them last time (for whatever reason) does rather suggest that the north did not in fact remember

A lot of the North has always voted Tory, Cheshire North Yorkshire, Ribble Valley, West Lancs etc, nextvtime I should imagine a lot of the true blues will remember and turn against them.

[CombatClaret]

One of the best explainer channels on Youtube for all things aviation, logistics, economics, geopolitics etc.

"The UK's Failed Experiment in Rail Privatization"
'https://youtu.be/DlTq8DbRs4k

Lays out very simply how we got here, why the franchise system is so poor and perpetually leads to over-promicing and under-delivering.

[RingoMcCartney]

Again, my point is that you said "The North remembers" and by voting for them last time (for whatever reason) does rather suggest that the north did not in fact remember

Actually , The North does unequivocally remember.

It remembered that it voted in a referendum.

It remembered Labour's ( keir Starmer's) policy at the 2019 General Election was to ignore that referendum result, negotiate a BRINO with Brussels , then return back to the UK , where it would campaign against its own newly brokered deal , in a second referendum without enacting the first one!

Evidenced by the collapse of its former heartlands and places like Burnley voting Tory for the first time in decades to ensure the referendum result was enacted

Which does rather suggest that's something you did not , in fact , remember.

[TommyPicks]

Actually , The North does unequivocally remember.

It remembered that it voted in a referendum.

It remembered Labour's ( keir Starmer's) policy at the 2019 General Election was to ignore that referendum result, negotiate a BRINO with Brussels , then return back to the UK , where it would campaign against its own newly brokered deal , in a second referendum without enacting the first one!

Evidenced by the collapse of its former heartlands and places like Burnley voting Tory for the first time in decades to ensure the referendum result was enacted

Which does rather suggest that's something you did not , in fact , remember.

Oh yeah and look how well Brexit has turned out to be!

Bet there’s a few more people and industries up and down the country who’d take that second referendum now, if they had the foresight to know how much of a complete balls up the whole thing has been.

[RingoMcCartney]

Oh yeah and look how well Brexit has turned out to be!

Bet there’s a few more people and industries up and down the country who’d take that second referendum now, if they had the foresight to know how much of a complete balls up the whole thing has been.

That's your opinion.

[TommyPicks]

That's your opinion.

Name 5 benefits to Brexit that has put us in a stronger position than we were pre referendum.

[nil_desperandum]

Name 5 benefits to Brexit that has put us in a stronger position than we were pre referendum.

Name just one or two.