Burnley v Manchester City - Player Ratings

[KlyBfc]

Weghorst - 4 - just not a feature on the game and after a lively first few games he seems a bit disillusioned with life leading the line on his own for Burnley. Given he doesn’t run the channels and looks at his best laying the ball up early rather than waiting for support it looks increasingly like he needs a partner going beyond him and without that he’s an ineffective focal point.

I agree with this though I do think he could work as the focal point if we pushed our left and right sided attackers a little higher narrower (well coming much more form out to in) and running beyond him. With McNeil in an advanced centre mid role to receive his lay offs and thread passes to the advancing players it may have a chance. But that would need some bravery and real risk taking from Dyche.

[Rileybobs]

Weghorst needs a strike partner - that much is clear. Cornet isn’t that man so the best we’ve got is Rodriguez, which is far from ideal but gives us the best chance of getting the most out of Weghorst. On current form, that means dropping McNeil.

[claretspice]

I might be tempted to use Lennon centrally, as we did to some effect over Christmas, with Cornet and McNeil wide. I have long wanted to see McNeil at 10 but I think Weghorst effectively occupies that space by preference, and it enables us to get all our best players on the pitch. That said Jay has been effective alongside Weghorst when given chance.

[RVclaret]

Weghorst needs a strike partner - that much is clear. Cornet isn’t that man so the best we’ve got is Rodriguez, which is far from ideal but gives us the best chance of getting the most out of Weghorst. On current form, that means dropping McNeil.

Does it? McNeil is our most talented player. Lennon has been pretty ineffective in the past 3/4. Id start Cornet and McNeil on the wings and allow them to change wings within the match. Jay up front with WW for now.

I actually think WW would enjoy playing alongside Vydra, who is the only striker we have capable of stretching teams, which in effect gives him more space to operate in.

[claretspice]

Does it? McNeil is our most talented player. Lennon has been pretty ineffective in the past 3/4. Id start Cornet and McNeil on the wings and allow them to change wings within the match. Jay up front with WW for now.

I actually think WW would enjoy playing alongside Vydra, who is the only striker we have capable of stretching teams, which in effect gives him more space to operate in.

Agree re Vydra. He frustrates but on paper he compliments Weghorst.

[claretspice]

Does it? McNeil is our most talented player. Lennon has been pretty ineffective in the past 3/4. Id start Cornet and McNeil on the wings and allow them to change wings within the match. Jay up front with WW for now.

I actually think WW would enjoy playing alongside Vydra, who is the only striker we have capable of stretching teams, which in effect gives him more space to operate in.

Agree re Vydra. He frustrates but on paper he compliments Weghorst.

[Vino blanco]

If I were Weghorst and had the likes of Westwood, Cork, Brownhill and McMeil in midfield behind me, I'd be f.ckin demoralised as well.

[KRBFC]

Quite simply you stop McNeil you stop Burnley.

Pope 6
Defence 5
Midfield 5
Weghorst 4

I know Weghorst is the most recent love child of this board but he’s not premier league quality. We have signed a 30 odd year old Peter crouch for 13m.

I don't think I'll ever agree with anything you say about football. After watching that game how on earth is the one player you criticise, the lone striker chasing absolute shadows? Not Premier League quality shows you either don't watch games or you know nothing. When we've played it into his feet, he's looked superb at linking the play, we can't create a chance for him same as we couldn't create a chance for Wood earlier this season.

[KRBFC]

I know Lennon's had a couple of good games this season, he's shite though, just like he was in his first spell here. Not good enough

[Newcastleclaret93]

I don't think I'll ever agree with anything you say about football. After watching that game how on earth is the one player you criticise, the lone striker chasing absolute shadows? Not Premier League quality shows you either don't watch games or you know nothing. When we've played it into his feet, he's looked superb at linking the play, we can't create a chance for him same as we couldn't create a chance for Wood earlier this season.

I don’t know how you can watch him and think he’s anywhere near up to the standard. He so slow it’s painful to watch.

Good technical footballer but as I said after his first appearance for the club he’s going to struggle in this league.

[Stayingup]

I know Lennon's had a couple of good games this season, he's shite though, just like he was in his first spell here. Not good enough

I think Lennons done ok. What summed up yesterday perhaps was them having £100 million left winger- Grealish - and us having a 35 year old free transfer on one wing.

[Vino blanco]

Some on here said Grealish wasn't good enough for Burnley.

[KRBFC]

I think Lennons done ok. What summed up yesterday perhaps was them having £100 million left winger- Grealish - and us having a 35 year old free transfer on one wing.

Lennon wouldn't be a bench player at any other PL side, he wasn't good enough 2 years ago in his first spell here, it's quite frankly a shocking look at how poor our recruitment has been regardless of who's the owner.

[Stayingup]

Lennon wouldn't be a bench player at any other PL side, he wasn't good enough 2 years ago in his first spell here, it's quite frankly a shocking look at how poor our recruitment has been regardless of who's the owner.

Yes you are right about our very poor recruitment for whatever reason(s). No funds from the previous management and/or poor buys by just who I wonder?

[KRBFC]

Yes you are right about our very poor recruitment for whatever reason(s). No funds from the previous management and/or poor buys by just who I wonder?

It's pretty clear Dyche wanted Lennon back, poor poor recruitment, would've been better utilising the free/loan market.

[Rileybobs]

Does it? McNeil is our most talented player. Lennon has been pretty ineffective in the past 3/4. Id start Cornet and McNeil on the wings and allow them to change wings within the match. Jay up front with WW for now.

I actually think WW would enjoy playing alongside Vydra, who is the only striker we have capable of stretching teams, which in effect gives him more space to operate in.

Firstly McNeil is not our most talented player. There is absolutely no substance to that claim.

While I would always choose an in form McNeil ahead of Lennon, as things stand I would choose Lennon ahead of him. Lennon has more pace, looks to get in behind the opposition and offers more protection defensively. McNeil is targeted defensively, yesterday being a prime example, and when he’s not offering anything at the other end of the pitch I think he’ll be making way, as he did at half time.

[claretspice]

City didn't particularly target McNeil yesterday. They more targeted the weakness in our defensive structure when someone stays high and wide and forces the full back to go wide rather than stay narrow. That certainly challenged McNeil (and and as I say he could have done more for both goals) but really it challenged us as a team, a challenge we only properly addressed at half time.

[RVclaret]

Firstly McNeil is not our most talented player. There is absolutely no substance to that claim.

While I would always choose an in form McNeil ahead of Lennon, as things stand I would choose Lennon ahead of him. Lennon has more pace, looks to get in behind the opposition and offers more protection defensively. McNeil is targeted defensively, yesterday being a prime example, and when he’s not offering anything at the other end of the pitch I think he’ll be making way, as he did at half time.

Some substance for you - in the top 5 highest dribbles completed in the league, best crosser of a ball in the club, most dangerous passer from the wide left zone in the league (posted this chart in another thread), only attacking player ever linked with another / bigger club, frequently has the highest pass completion % in matches, one of few players capable of switching the ball with an accurate long pass.

He might be ‘out of form’ assists / goals wise but is still arguably our most creative player / one of the better players we have, so I’d hope he’s given another go against a defence that’s there to be got at.

[Rileybobs]

City didn't particularly target McNeil yesterday. They more targeted the weakness in our defensive structure when someone stays high and wide and forces the full back to go wide rather than stay narrow. That certainly challenged McNeil (and and as I say he could have done more for both goals) but really it challenged us as a team, a challenge we only properly addressed at half time.

I think it’s true that City targeted the system more than the individuals. Obviously their players are far superior 1v1 so they don’t need to focus as much on individual weaknesses as other teams. But DeBruyne in particular was loitering around McNeil for a lot of the first half so I don’t think it’s true to say that he wasn’t targeted. He was taken off at half time as a result and along with City taking their foot off the gas we looked at lot more solid as a result.

I know you’re a big McNeil fan, as am I when he’s on form. But the slack defensive side of his game is targeted by most teams, which I would accept as a weakness when it’s countered with exhilarating wing play and dangerous crosses into the box. But when we don’t see that side of his game then questions need to be asked about his place in the starting eleven. In a straight shoot out between him and Cornet for the wide left position then there’s only one winner for me - and I don’t think he’s playing well enough to justify changing the system just to accommodate him.

[Rileybobs]

Some substance for you - in the top 5 highest dribbles completed in the league, best crosser of a ball in the club, most dangerous passer from the wide left zone in the league (posted this chart in another thread), only attacking player ever linked with another / bigger club, frequently has the highest pass completion % in matches, one of few players capable of switching the ball with an accurate long pass.

He might be ‘out of form’ assists / goals wise but is still arguably our most creative player / one of the better players we have, so I’d hope he’s given another go against a defence that’s there to be got at.

None of that substantiates your claim that McNeil is our most talented player. And I think it’s a ludicrous claim when we have players who are currently being selected for England and the Netherlands and a centre back who will have his pick of most clubs outside the ‘big six’ come the end of the season.

[Scott Arfield's Swag]

Bit difficult to mark as in truth from minute 5 I just sat back and enjoyed watching City play. Thought we did well 2nd half, albeit with City playing in about 16th gear.

Pope 6
Roberts 5
Long 6
Tarkowski 6
Taylor 5
Lennon 6
Brownhill 6
Cork 6
Westwood 6
McNeil 5
Weghorst 5

Cornet 5

[claretspice]

I think it’s true that City targeted the system more than the individuals. Obviously their players are far superior 1v1 so they don’t need to focus as much on individual weaknesses as other teams. But DeBruyne in particular was loitering around McNeil for a lot of the first half so I don’t think it’s true to say that he wasn’t targeted. He was taken off at half time as a result and along with City taking their foot off the gas we looked at lot more solid as a result.

I know you’re a big McNeil fan, as am I when he’s on form. But the slack defensive side of his game is targeted by most teams, which I would accept as a weakness when it’s countered with exhilarating wing play and dangerous crosses into the box. But when we don’t see that side of his game then questions need to be asked about his place in the starting eleven. In a straight shoot out between him and Cornet for the wide left position then there’s only one winner for me - and I don’t think he’s playing well enough to justify changing the system just to accommodate him.

Hes not slack defensively though - he's pretty diligent for a winger, by any measure- and he wasn't targeted yesterday. Kyle Walker would generally be McNeil's man and he rarely got ahead of the ball. KDB played where KDB does - basically as an old fashioned inside right between McNeil and the midfield 3, and between the midfield and defensive line.

As for the rest - not a debate for this thread, because its not a question about the game yesterday, but one about whether he should feature in futures games. You'll know my view on that though. What I would say is that despite an overdue tactical tweak allowing him to play higher than McNeil (ie taking his cue positionally from Walker) and therefore having some opportunities to create excitement, I thought Cornet's execution was pretty ordinary. He's as out of form as McNeil may be.

[Rileybobs]

Hes not slack defensively though - he's pretty diligent for a winger, by any measure- and he wasn't targeted yesterday. Kyle Walker would generally be McNeil's man and he rarely got ahead of the ball. KDB played where KDB does - basically as an old fashioned inside right between McNeil and the midfield 3, and between the midfield and defensive line.

As for the rest - not a debate for this thread, because its not a question about the game yesterday, but one about whether he should feature in futures games. You'll know my view on that. What I would say is that despite an overdue tactical tweak allowing him to play higher than McNeil (ie taking his cue positionally from Walker) and therefore having some opportunities to create excitement, I thought Cornet's execution was pretty ordinary. He's as out of form as McNeil may be.

You don’t think McNeil is slack defensively? Really? I don’t believe you actually think that.

Cornet is out of form too, without a doubt. But he offers a threat in behind the defensive line which we saw on a few occasions yesterday. It came to nothing but they were our liveliest moments of the game - the header cleared off the line which was eventually flagged for offside, and when Rodriguez should have played him in instead of shooting with his left being the most notable.

[claretspice]

You don’t think McNeil is slack defensively? Really? I don’t believe you actually think that.

Cornet is out of form too, without a doubt. But he offers a threat in behind the defensive line which we saw on a few occasions yesterday. It came to nothing but they were our liveliest moments of the game - the header cleared off the line which was eventually flagged for offside, and when Rodriguez should have played him in instead of shooting with his left being the most notable.

No, I don't. I think his statistics for tackles made and yards run bear thar out. He's nit as good defensively as Boys or Arfield were but if you want to compare him to just about any other up and coming winger in the league I don't think he compares unfavourably.

As for Cornet - as you correctly say, the one time he got in behind he was offside by a distance, and he actually made a hash of the "chance" in the first place. The other example you cite is one when he didn't touch the ball, so it's a bit much to use it to demonstrate the value of that player over another.

[Rileybobs]

No, I don't. I think his statistics for tackles made and yards run bear thar out. He's nit as good defensively as Boys or Arfield were but if you want to compare him to just about any other up and coming winger in the league I don't think he compares unfavourably.

As for Cornet - as you correctly say, the one time he got in behind he was offside by a distance, and he actually made a hash of the "chance" in the first place. The other example you cite is one when he didn't touch the ball, so it's a bit much to use it to demonstrate the value of that player over another.

Not sure I’ve seen a tackles made stat, I’ve seen the interceptions stat but that is quite different. Yards run is meaningless. I’m not suggesting that McNeil stands on the halfway line - but he doesn’t defend with any intensity, let’s the cross come in far too easily and has a bad habit of switching off and letting his man run off him. He then chases back after his man, but those are wasted yards.

But as I suggested before, his job is first and foremost to provide creativity. If he was doing this, as we all know he is capable of, then I would forgive these defensive shortcomings. But he isn’t creating.

My comparison with Cornet is to illustrate the desire of the two players. Cornet is always looking to get into goalscoring positions. Another moment has just come to mind - when Barnes crossed along the six yard box but over hit it - Cornet was steaming in at the back post for what should have been a tap-in.

I genuinely can’t believe you can suggest that he isn’t offering more attacking threat than McNeil. As I said, I understand you’re a big fan but it seems pretty clear that you’ve made your mind up about McNeil and nothing you see will change that.

[Bosscat]

Pope 7
Roberts 5
Long 7* MotM
Tarkowski 7
Taylor 6
Lennon 6
Brownhill 7
Cork 7
Westwood 6
McNeil 5
Weghorst 6

Cornet 7

[claretspice]

Not sure I’ve seen a tackles made stat, I’ve seen the interceptions stat but that is quite different. Yards run is meaningless. I’m not suggesting that McNeil stands on the halfway line - but he doesn’t defend with any intensity, let’s the cross come in far too easily and has a bad habit of switching off and letting his man run off him. He then chases back after his man, but those are wasted yards.

But as I suggested before, his job is first and foremost to provide creativity. If he was doing this, as we all know he is capable of, then I would forgive these defensive shortcomings. But he isn’t creating.

My comparison with Cornet is to illustrate the desire of the two players. Cornet is always looking to get into goalscoring positions. Another moment has just come to mind - when Barnes crossed along the six yard box but over hit it - Cornet was steaming in at the back post for what should have been a tap-in.

I genuinely can’t believe you can suggest that he isn’t offering more attacking threat than McNeil. As I said, I understand you’re a big fan but it seems pretty clear that you’ve made your mind up about McNeil and nothing you see will change that.

I'm making no comment on McNeil's attacking threat beyond saying he's out of form. You are correct to say Cornet gets into more goalscoring positions tho. Instinctively he does that better (although the Barnes example was also offside). That doesn't alter the fact that he's as out of form as McNeil and did very little yesterday in 45 minutes. It just reflects that they are different sorts of players. My own view is that to stay up we have to back both of them. And if we're comparing defensive duties, McNeil is miles better than Cornet - think that's generally accepted.

Anyway, good chatting. Enjoy your evening.

[IanMcL]

Just watch our bit of MOTD. McNeil can count himself lucky with my 5 score! Jogging about without any purpose!

[claretspice]

Just watch our bit of MOTD. McNeil can count himself lucky with my 5 score! Jogging about without any purpose!

I have and I think Shearer fails to pick up on the tactic from Pep that caused the problem, or the fact that we fixed it at half time entirely independently of McNeil going off. He didn't know where to be or who to pick up because the problem was the fact Taylor could get nowhere near Sterling and so he was free (in everyone of the clips Shearer showed)

[IanMcL]

Usually, Two players play close to each other down each side. We were miles adrift on the left. Aaron Lennon did his bit on the right.

[claretspice]

Usually, Two players play close to each other down each side. We were miles adrift on the left. Aaron Lennon did his bit on the right.

Why did Cancello have so much time and space so often then, not least for for the first goal?

We were all over the place on the left but I've explained why i think thats the case. It's the same problem we've had against City since Pep has been there.

[Spijed]

Why did Cancello have so much time and space so often then, not least for for the first goal?

We were all over the place on the left but I've explained why i think thats the case. It's the same problem we've had against City since Pep has been there.

I'm surprised Klopp has never used a similar tactic against us considering the amount of problems we've given Liverpool in recent seasons.

[claretspice]

I have thought the same, but in truth city can do it because they are so complete in possession. Not even liverpool are in the sane league for that.

[superdimitri]

Pope 7
Roberts 6
Long 6
Tarkowski 6
Taylor 6
Lennon 6
Brownhill 6
Cork 5
Westwood 5
McNeil 4
Weghorst 5
Cornet 7

[the_magic_rat]

Pope 8 MOM

Roberts 6
Long 7
Tarkowski 6
Taylor

McNeil 5
Cork 5
Westwood 5
Brownhill 7
Lennon 6

Weghorst 6

Rodriguez 6