Weghorst. Never a Claret. Narcissis.

[joey13]

Personally I think the "antipathy towards Weghorst" is mainly because he was largely crap, rather than whatever he said in the press, but OK. Not really any comparison to Collins, who made a couple of big, costly errors but on the whole was one of our better players after coming into the side (due to injury, remember) whereas Weghorst was signed to score the goals to keep us up and didn't. Collins scored as many goals as Weghorst ffs.

There's also chatter Collins has a release clause which would take it out of our - and his - hands if someone triggers it. So not remotely the same.

On the 'how a player leaves' stuff I do think it's interesting how differently Tarkowski and Mee were/are viewed, despite essentially doing the same thing (I am assuming Mee was made an offer to stay). I'm not saying Mee should have played with a broken leg, but Tarkowski did play while not fully fit, played at Watford despite travelling back to see his sick kid etc etc - only difference was he made it clear he was leaving whereas Mee said nothing.

Was Mee offered a new contract ?

[fidelcastro]

Was Mee offered a new contract ?

I'm not sure anyone apart from those closest to Mee truly know.

[ClaretTony]

i don't like this Dyche vs Garlick stuff.
6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other in my opinion.
They both did brilliant things and both made mistakes.

I think it eventually come out that it was more than 6 with one and less than half a dozen with the other

[boatshed bill]

I think it eventually come out that it was more than 6 with one and less than half a dozen with the other

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd believe the truth even if I saw it in writing.
Clearly something went very wrong between the two. i doubt the details will ever be confirmed.

[Jambo]

I definitely saw reports Mee was had held talks over a contract earlier in the season, but I guess talks doesn't necessarily mean an offer was made, and the picture may have changed after Dyche was sacked, then again after relegation.

[Burnley Ace]

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd believe the truth even if I saw it in writing.
Clearly something went very wrong between the two. i doubt the details will ever be confirmed.

Until we get the full picture of how many players we could have signed, but Dyche didn’t want to take the risk as it would damage his “miracle on a shoestring” image, we will never know.

[Ric_C]

What slightly confuses me is that when Garlick was chairman, Dyche kept moaning in the press about the state of affairs with transfers, not a week went by without a subtle (or not) dig at the regime. When Pace took over this all went away and Dyche seemed happier. This seems at odds with the whole "couldn't sign his own players" line.

Or did Dyche see the writing on the wall & sign the 4 year deal knowing that this was only going to end in tears sooner rather than later?

[Paul Waine]

What slightly confuses me is that when Garlick was chairman, Dyche kept moaning in the press about the state of affairs with transfers, not a week went by without a subtle (or not) dig at the regime. When Pace took over this all went away and Dyche seemed happier. This seems at odds with the whole "couldn't sign his own players" line.

Or did Dyche see the writing on the wall & sign the 4 year deal knowing that this was only going to end in tears sooner rather than later?

Don't overlook that Mike Garlick is still a director of BFC and he and Alan Pace were very capable about having a conversation about "all things" BFC. It was significant that one of the first things that Alan Pace did as BFC's new chairman was to speak about how Sean Dyche would be closely involved in transfer decisions, with some form of transfer committee operating. Amongst other things, with this new set up the club started to sign younger players, including Maxwel Cornet and Wout Weghorst. Aaron Lennon was the only experienced over 30 year old who was signed while Alan Pace and Sean Dyche operated together.

[daveisaclaret]

What slightly confuses me is that when Garlick was chairman, Dyche kept moaning in the press about the state of affairs with transfers, not a week went by without a subtle (or not) dig at the regime. When Pace took over this all went away and Dyche seemed happier. This seems at odds with the whole "couldn't sign his own players" line.

Or did Dyche see the writing on the wall & sign the 4 year deal knowing that this was only going to end in tears sooner rather than later?

I think it's simply that Dyche felt unsackable under Garlick and went about his media affairs accordingly. Clearly he had much less reason to feel that way once Pace was in.

[SydneyClaret]

Weghorst has publicly stated he wants to play in a top division to enhance his chances of playing in what will probably be his only opportunity to play in a World Cup. IF we’ve got (and we probably have) other players privately authorising their agents to push for a move, I really see no difference. Being up front about it publicly makes you no less loyal than the player pushing privately.

I used the example of Collins because, like Weghorst, he’s not been with us long. If anything Collins has more cause for patience, because he doesn’t have a World Cup in November and he should have years ahead of him.

Again, I don’t blame any of the players for wanting to leave. It’s natural to want to play at the highest level. I just find Weghorst being singled out for wanting something that half out squad probably want a bit much.

The thing is. There’s arguably only 4 leagues in Europe that are better than the Championship.

[ClaretTony]

Don't overlook that Mike Garlick is still a director of BFC and he and Alan Pace were very capable about having a conversation about "all things" BFC.

I very much doubt that

[timshorts]

Have heard of Narcissus (Narcissi) but not Narcissis

It'll be a narcissus in its dative or ablative plural form.

[Paul Waine]

I very much doubt that

Hi CT, that's a different view. Others on here are claiming that Mike Garlick planned the structure of the acquisition of the club by Alan Pace. I recall seeing video of MG and AP celebrating the win at Watford.

UTC

[forzagranata]

If the club's owners didn't want to have to deal with offloading Weghorst this summer then they shouldn't have made an agreement with him that he could leave the club six months after he was bought for a reported £12 million.

Yes, his comments, no doubt translated from Dutch, did sound dismissive but if Pace offered him a deal where he wouldn't have to play Championship football then he is hardly out of order for asking that the agreement be kept to.

[Woonderbah]

There's also chatter Collins has a release clause which would take it out of our - and his - hands if someone triggers it. So not remotely the same.

Here's one for the barristers on here.. if a bid was made which triggered the release clause, could the player argue that because the management has changed since the contract was signed, he now prefers to stay put.
I'm thinking Collins may wish to progress as a player staying at Burnley and learning from Kompany rather than say, moving to Forest for a probable relegation scrap.
Just wondering...

[daveisaclaret]

Here's one for the barristers on here.. if a bid was made which triggered the release clause, could the player argue that because the management has changed since the contract was signed, he now prefers to stay put.
I'm thinking Collins may wish to progress as a player staying at Burnley and learning from Kompany rather than say, moving to Forest for a probable relegation scrap.
Just wondering...

If Collins doesn't want to leave he can just turn down anyone who meets a (hypothetical) release clause. It doesn't force him to move to any club who offer a certain amount

[warksclaret]

Why are we looking to loan him-lets sell and get as much as the market will pay for him. If we do get promoted, do we really want him playing for us at the expense of a more committed players. Mee and Hendrick got their share of criticism when they left but at least they honoured their contracts (more so Mee)

[clarethomer]

Why are we looking to loan him-lets sell and get as much as the market will pay for him. If we do get promoted, do we really want him playing for us at the expense of a more committed players. Mee and Hendrick got their share of criticism when they left but at least they honoured their contracts (more so Mee)

You need to consider that the contract terms would have been agreed before the benefit of hindsight.

From the player and agents perspective, it makes sense to have these clauses so they can make their chances of getting a move that meets their aspirations more likely.

If someone had come in for the fee for the sale then no doubt the club would have to have accept that and he would be gone - but it hasn't and he and his agent are clearly looking for better offers on loan.

I think a loan agreement with Besiktas is all but agreed but the player is still holding on for a better offer from the German league.

To me it just shows that his short period hasn't impressed many other clubs but his time at Burnley hasn't done him any favours.

[ClaretTony]

Why are we looking to loan him-lets sell and get as much as the market will pay for him. If we do get promoted, do we really want him playing for us at the expense of a more committed players. Mee and Hendrick got their share of criticism when they left but at least they honoured their contracts (more so Mee)

I wonder whether we might have to pay the transfer fee to Wolfsburg in full if we sell him but can continue with the instalments if he goes out on loan.

[FeedTheArf]

I wonder whether we might have to pay the transfer fee to Wolfsburg in full if we sell him but can continue with the instalments if he goes out on loan.

That wouldn’t make sense, as any buying club would be paying us in instalments and we’d be left short. In fact that would go for any club who sells a player.

Unless you’re suggesting we’ve included this in this deal specifically?

I think the thinking behind it was that we loan him out, get promoted and he saunters back in once all the hard work has been done. If that is the case it’s incredibly naive and and they’re in for a big shock if Weghorst ever ends up playing a Turf Moor again.

[ClaretTony]

That wouldn’t make sense, as any buying club would be paying us in instalments and we’d be left short. In fact that would go for any club who sells a player.

Unless you’re suggesting we’ve included this in this deal specifically?

I think the thinking behind it was that we loan him out, get promoted and he saunters back in once all the hard work has been done. If that is the case it’s incredibly naive and and they’re in for a big shock if Weghorst ever ends up playing a Turf Moor again.

I’m suggesting that by taking a loan fee we don’t have to stump up all the money to Wolfsburg.

[ClaretPete001]

I’m suggesting that by taking a loan fee we don’t have to stump up all the money to Wolfsburg.

I would guess the scenario is, as you say, the loan payment could be used to pay the transfer fee thus reducing the payments.

However, as far as I recall the loan fee is a small amount compared to the transfer fee with the bulk of the loan money paid to the player as wages.

[ClaretPete001]

Hi CT, that's a different view. Others on here are claiming that Mike Garlick planned the structure of the acquisition of the club by Alan Pace. I recall seeing video of MG and AP celebrating the win at Watford.

UTC

Without wishing to resurrect other arguments here I don't think anyone thinks AP and MG planned the structure of the acquisition; rather, the explanation that the club was managed in such a way as to facilitate one, and AP was there to take advantage of it, is as good a fit to the evidence as there is.

No doubt the negotiations could be construed as planning of sorts.

[Paul Waine]

Here's one for the barristers on here.. if a bid was made which triggered the release clause, could the player argue that because the management has changed since the contract was signed, he now prefers to stay put.
I'm thinking Collins may wish to progress as a player staying at Burnley and learning from Kompany rather than say, moving to Forest for a probable relegation scrap.
Just wondering...

I'm not sure why anyone would think Nathan Collins has a release clause in his contract: 20 year old, £12m fee, signed from Championship club, no prior Premier League experience, back up to two first team starters, why would he (or his agents) think he requires a release clause?

I'd also hope that £12m fee means that there is no sell-on percentage to Stoke. £12m should be "full and final."

Of course, Nathan Collins has taken his chances when they've come along. Hope he's keen to develop further under Vincent Kompany.

UTC

[Paul Waine]

That wouldn’t make sense, as any buying club would be paying us in instalments and we’d be left short. In fact that would go for any club who sells a player.

Unless you’re suggesting we’ve included this in this deal specifically?

I think the thinking behind it was that we loan him out, get promoted and he saunters back in once all the hard work has been done. If that is the case it’s incredibly naive and and they’re in for a big shock if Weghorst ever ends up playing a Turf Moor again.

From what I've seen, Wout Weghorst is a good footballer. I can guess that he was concerned about joining Burnley and being relegated to the Championship because he has ambitions to play for Netherlands in the World Cup. So, the deal was done that, if Burnley were relegated, he would go out on loan. Weghorst put in some good performances for Burnley and showed that he can do the hard work, but it was also difficult for him to establish himself as the team was often changing around him, Jay Rod, Vyds, Barnes and a midfield that didn't always put in the right ball. The loan deal should be honoured by the club, though I'm not sure Turkey is any better than the Championship to advance his world cup ambitions. If Vincent Kompany wanted to, I'd be happy if WW is loaned out for the first half of the season, with the club having the right to recall him in January. It may be with a team in the mix for promotion WW can prove his worth and - if the clarets are promoted - be ready to go again as an established player back in the Premier League.

So, tot ziens, Wout Weghorst.

UTC