War ethics ....

[Devils_Advocate]

There's an awful lot you've said that is wrong to the point of ridiculousness but that aside I have clearly explained what I deem homophobic about your rant so and its not my responsibility to help educate you and help you understand.

I know very little about Macintyre, Mayne or this incident but I was happily reading the thoughts of those who do and then you came along with your diatribe of hate with its sprinkle of homophobia and I thought I would call you out on it

[Stayingup]

You brought up his sexuality when it had no relevance at all to the conversation to use it in some kind of negative attack on a made up, non existent group of people who you've been brainwashed to hate by whatever gutter you source your news and information from.

Your use of someone's sexuality in this context is a form of homophobia but as said it doesn't surprise me that you are to thick to even realise what you were doing although that in itself that is no excuse.

I haven't joined in this discussion and I dont wish to. But calling people thick, especially when you don't even know the difference between to and too and because they do not agree with you shows a fault line in your mind.

[Spiral]

I haven't joined in this discussion and I dont wish to. But calling people thick, especially when you don't even know the difference between to and too and because they do not agree with you shows a fault line in your mind.

Ooh boy, if insults are your concern you'd better avoid BennyD's posts, then.

[conyoviejo]

I haven't joined in this discussion and I dont wish to. But calling people thick, especially when you don't even know the difference between to and too and because they do not agree with you shows a fault line in your mind.

Have you only just noticed?

[Stayingup]

Ooh boy, if insults are your concern you'd better avoid BennyD's posts, then.

Why has he called someone thick?

Actually I have seen his posts on the McNeil.thread and he's certainly controversial. But from what I recall he didn't insult anyone - perhaps outside of Mr Pace!!!

[BabylonClaret]

To be fair to Benny D I just thi k his post is a bit badly constructed.

It's not meant to be homophobic but he is complaining about Woke folks having a go at a chap who he believes should be held up as a paragon and that those "wokies" don't have a clue because they pick arguments to suit their political viewpoint emphasising his point by saying that he was most lily gay (ie so eone the "wokies" would usually support).

I think his point was against what he perceived was an attack by "wokies" based on their biased viewpoint.

Personally I think his argument is wrong - I don't see any criticism here in the question posed but rather a conversation about what we accept or don't in the context of war - it's an interesting debate and always worth considering albeit in an intellectual way. It's always a grey area.

[Lowbankclaret]

War is war.
If you get the opportunity to kill opposing troops, you take it over equipment every time.
Then take out the equipment.

They would kill you in a heart beat.

[Devils_Advocate]

I haven't joined in this discussion and I dont wish to. But calling people thick, especially when you don't even know the difference between to and too and because they do not agree with you shows a fault line in your mind.

Well Id happily put the posts ive made tonight up against those of BennyD's in a challenge against whose posts display a lack of intelligence and an abundance of hate and name calling as Benny has gone off the scale tonight.

I mean telling the person who runs this website he should be ashamed of himself and calling me a moron whilst being homophobic is no comparison to me calling someone thick

[Devils_Advocate]

It's not meant to be homophobic but he is complaining about Woke folks having a go at a chap who he believes should be held up as a paragon and that those "wokies" don't have a clue because they pick arguments to suit their political viewpoint emphasising his point by saying that he was most lily gay (ie so eone the "wokies" would usually support).

I agree he didn't mean it to be homophobic but this whole idea of "woke" is culture war stuff deliberately used by the right to stoke up division where it is often the minorities who are on the end of the attacks. This clearly comes through in the way he weaponises sexuality to attack the people he doesn't like.

Im sorry but whether he and others realise this or not the fact is it is dangerous and I'll have no hesitation in calling this out even if the demographic on here are more likely to not understand it and more likely to be sucked into this culture war nonsense where im the problem as some imaginary woke lefty

[BabylonClaret]

No I agree totally DA. I think he's wrong to take that view because it wasn't actually what was happening.

I don't even think most people who talk about "woke" could even make a sustainable argument about what it even is

[Spiral]

I don't even think most people who talk about "woke" could even make a sustainable argument about what it even is

I think that's the point.

[BabylonClaret]

I think that's the point.

What's the point? That woke is kind of not a thing? Or that the "right" propaganda (for wantbof a better word - it's actually not that simple) is making a point that "woke" don't know what "woke" means???

[Rileybobs]

Woke is the new snowflake. It’s usually used by stupid people who can’t think for themselves and don’t know the meaning of the word and the correct context to use it in. Culture war b0llocks, and idiots lap it up.

[Spiral]

What's the point? That woke is kind of not a thing? Or that the "right" propaganda (for wantbof a better word - it's actually not that simple) is making a point that "woke" don't know what "woke" means???

What I mean is that you'd sound like a muppet if you started to actually define what it is you're against.

Example:

*person does bad thing, other people react*

"Woke hysteria! Cancel culture! Leftist mob!"

"...but sir, the man has been accused of sexual assault"

If you said "look at this hysterical mob, having it in for a sexual predator," people would think you're mad, and so the word 'woke', which acts as a code word, as an empty semantic vessel into which you pour your own petty grievances, which acts a screen for your prejudices, comes in handy when you find yourself compelled to, but are incapable of, defending the indefensible. Its rhetorical power lies in its nebulosity. It is fundamentally an ad hominem attack. Totally insincere, totally useless to a meaningful discourse, useful for rabble rousing and nothing else.

[BennyD]

To be fair to Benny D I just thi k his post is a bit badly constructed.

It's not meant to be homophobic but he is complaining about Woke folks having a go at a chap who he believes should be held up as a paragon and that those "wokies" don't have a clue because they pick arguments to suit their political viewpoint emphasising his point by saying that he was most lily gay (ie so eone the "wokies" would usually support).

I think his point was against what he perceived was an attack by "wokies" based on their biased viewpoint.

Personally I think his argument is wrong - I don't see any criticism here in the question posed but rather a conversation about what we accept or don't in the context of war - it's an interesting debate and always worth considering albeit in an intellectual way. It's always a grey area.

That is a sensible, well reasoned assessment and, for that, I thank you. 'Paddy' Mayne was an exceptional soldier in exceptional times. He helped to create what the SAS of today has become and that is how he should be remembered. However, In these 'emlightened' times figures such as he are being retrospectively examined, criticised and, occasionally, hung out to dry for something that occurred in very different times and it is usually the (rabid) Left that are pushing that agenda.

After 80 years why is this discussion taking place? Why does MacIntyre think Mayne should have been Court Martialled? Iirc, Mayne was awarded his first Distinguished Service Order (DSO) for this raid, so his Senior Officers obviously thought his actions were worthy of high praise, not censure. It then begs the question; why does MacIntyre think Mayne should have been put on trial for this? In my mind there are 2 possibilities; either MacIntyre is trying to make a name for himself or impugn Mayne's character/reputation in the 'way of today'.

I would loved to have met Blair Mayne, but not after he'd been drinking!

[BennyD]

I agree he didn't mean it to be homophobic but this whole idea of "woke" is culture war stuff deliberately used by the right to stoke up division where it is often the minorities who are on the end of the attacks. This clearly comes through in the way he weaponises sexuality to attack the people he doesn't like.

Im sorry but whether he and others realise this or not the fact is it is dangerous and I'll have no hesitation in calling this out even if the demographic on here are more likely to not understand it and more likely to be sucked into this culture war nonsense where im the problem as some imaginary woke lefty

So, whilst you agree I wasn't being homophobic you pushed this slur on my integrity to justify your own credentials. You then allege that I 'weaponise' sexuality to attack people I don't like. If you agree I wasn't being homophobic how can I 'weaponise' homophobia? Also, I've stated that I regard Blair Mayne (I won't call him 'Paddy' just in case you regard that as racist) as one of my heroes despite his many short-comings.

Whether you like it, there is a revisionist agenda being pushed throughtout society, the Bristol statue riot, Oxford and Cambridge Universities renaming colleges, even the Bob Lord stand debacle, and this certainly isn't being driven by the right against minorities. If you feel this is your j'ust cause' and get on your high horse to push it then crack on. However, if you do, make sure you 'call out' the right people or you will continue to look like a 'Woke Warrior' or, in other words, a rebel without a clue.

[BennyD]

There's an awful lot you've said that is wrong to the point of ridiculousness but that aside I have clearly explained what I deem homophobic about your rant so and its not my responsibility to help educate you and help you understand.

I know very little about Macintyre, Mayne or this incident but I was happily reading the thoughts of those who do and then you came along with your diatribe of hate with its sprinkle of homophobia and I thought I would call you out on it

Like ai said, a rebel without a clue. Sad really.

[BennyD]

Well Id happily put the posts ive made tonight up against those of BennyD's in a challenge against whose posts display a lack of intelligence and an abundance of hate and name calling as Benny has gone off the scale tonight.

I mean telling the person who runs this website he should be ashamed of himself and calling me a moron whilst being homophobic is no comparison to me calling someone thick

There has been no hate from me and, you have agreed, no homophobia either. As for name calling, I was merely lowering myself to your level to aid your understanding. You have already undermined your position to the point of collapse, so pursuing it any further would be total folly on your part.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Not homophobic but not needed either in this discussion, it was really bizarre to be reading a discussion about war ethics and then see someone suggesting he was probably gay ....

[Devils_Advocate]

So, whilst you agree I wasn't being homophobic you pushed this slur on my integrity to justify your own credentials. You then allege that I 'weaponise' sexuality to attack people I don't like. If you agree I wasn't being homophobic how can I 'weaponise' homophobia? Also, I've stated that I regard Blair Mayne (I won't call him 'Paddy' just in case you regard that as racist) as one of my heroes despite his many short-comings.

I didn't say you were not being homophonic, I just accepted that you probably didn't realise you were being homophobic and that being ignorant of the fact is no acceptable excuse. I've stated this clearly in my previous posts but for some reason you aren't able to comprehend this.

To clarify again you weaponised the sexuality of Mayne to attack a set of people who you describe as 'lefties' or 'wokies' and as well as this being absolute culture war nonsense it is also a form of homophobia.

[BennyD]

Perhaps the leftists that will no doubt call for his reputation may eventually realise he was, in all likelihood, gay.

That is my 'homophobic rant' in full. Notice that I haven't used his sexuality to attack anyone, I merely suggested the people trying to sully his reputation may eventually realise he was, quite possibly, gay and that they are trying to destroy the reputation of someone the Left claim to represent. Also, Homophobia implies anti-gay and nowhere have I attacked him for being gay, so I'm not ignorant of being Homophobic. It seems obvious that you are trying to goad a reaction from me but, that won't happen because I generally converse with prople a lot more intelligent than you, who know that I'm not racist or Homophobic. So, in closing Blair Mayne was in all probability the perfect man for the role he assumed and doesnot deserve to be used as a pawn by the Woke left or wannabe historians trying to make their own reputation.

[daveisaclaret]

Are these woke leftists in the room with you right now?

[Lancasterclaret]

Perhaps the leftists that will no doubt call for his reputation may eventually realise he was, in all likelihood, gay.

That is my 'homophobic rant' in full. Notice that I haven't used his sexuality to attack anyone, I merely suggested the people trying to sully his reputation may eventually realise he was, quite possibly, gay and that they are trying to destroy the reputation of someone the Left claim to represent. Also, Homophobia implies anti-gay and nowhere have I attacked him for being gay, so I'm not ignorant of being Homophobic. It seems obvious that you are trying to goad a reaction from me but, that won't happen because I generally converse with prople a lot more intelligent than you, who know that I'm not racist or Homophobic. So, in closing Blair Mayne was in all probability the perfect man for the role he assumed and doesnot deserve to be used as a pawn by the Woke left or wannabe historians trying to make their own reputation.

Why on earth are you bring "woke" and "leftists" into it?

It just doesn't help your argument at all

Just stick to the facts

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Perhaps the leftists that will no doubt call for his reputation may eventually realise he was, in all likelihood, gay.

That is my 'homophobic rant' in full. Notice that I haven't used his sexuality to attack anyone, I merely suggested the people trying to sully his reputation may eventually realise he was, quite possibly, gay and that they are trying to destroy the reputation of someone the Left claim to represent. Also, Homophobia implies anti-gay and nowhere have I attacked him for being gay, so I'm not ignorant of being Homophobic. It seems obvious that you are trying to goad a reaction from me but, that won't happen because I generally converse with prople a lot more intelligent than you, who know that I'm not racist or Homophobic. So, in closing Blair Mayne was in all probability the perfect man for the role he assumed and doesnot deserve to be used as a pawn by the Woke left or wannabe historians trying to make their own reputation.

Just stop....
You went all weird banging on about his sexuality, WHICH NO ONE ON HERE QUERIED and also wittered on about the woke left....which again no one had mentioned.

It was just a simple open question and you just jumped straight off the deep end

[pureclaret]

Just been watching a programe on the Lancaster bomber on sky where real life men who flew them in world war 2 , one who said he went out at dusk flew 5 miles up and to a point dropped several tons of bombs came back for breakfast then went out on the bozze and thought nothing of it and then the day after started again he said now what he did was fundementaly wrong but the circumstances were such that we did it but i cant reconcile with those 2 view points. another i was 20 yrs old no experience of life facing death night after night but you just did it. a pet thing is wht they call retrospective historians , I ask them just 2 questions were you there? and were you personally aware of circumstances and conditions at that time the answer to both of those questions is always no , so keep your bloody mouth shut (the look in this 90+ year guy is enough to make the hardest of men turn and walk away)
I think that this sums up this post,

[Hipper]

That's a sad thing that that bomber aircrew thinks what he did was 'fundamentally wrong'. It wasn't!

As far as I know, every war since WW2, when air power became a mature weapon, attacks from the air that have involved the killing of civilians, even if they weren't directly targeted, has happened. It may not be 'right' but it seems to be necessary.

Furthermore I disagree with your '90+ year guy' - there's no reason why we can't discuss and pronounce on any aspect of war. Effectively we all pay for it and could suffer it. Obviously we have to be informed about it.

[Lancasterclaret]

That's a sad thing that that bomber aircrew thinks what he did was 'fundamentally wrong'. It wasn't!

As far as I know, every war since WW2, when air power became a mature weapon, attacks from the air that have involved the killing of civilians, even if they weren't directly targeted, has happened. It may not be 'right' but it seems to be necessary.

Furthermore I disagree with your '90+ year guy' - there's no reason why we can't discuss and pronounce on any aspect of war. Effectively we all pay for it and could suffer it. Obviously we have to be informed about it.

Indiscriminate bombing of cities was, still is, and always will be a war crime

The vast majority of civilian casualties in WWII happened in 1944-45, when the war was essentially over, both in Japan and Germany

I understand (and largely agree btw) with the reasons that it happened, but it doesn't change the fact that its a war crime