Defence v attack

[CoolClaret]

It’s getting rather repetitive

For me -and I’ve been saying it for the past five-seven games or so, we need to be more pragmatic.

Swap Cullen for a striker(or play Tella dedicated striker and Zaroury on the left) with Brownhill dropping into midfield & Chaz to left back with Lowton coming back in at right back.

Lowts-THB-Beyer-Taylor
———Cork-Brownhill

All of a sudden we won’t look small in both boxes and have a bit more know now in now to see off games.

A bit more know how***

[Colburn_Claret]

I got pelters last week for this but this is exactly how I feel.

We might be the best team in the league. Certainly the best squad I think. But I see us as finishing mid table despite that talent because we’re not playing well enough to beat teams, which is frustrating.

These dropped points will certainly cost us.

Sense we’re in the weird position of needing to change & leave some great players on the bench in order to find the best team. Convinced after tonight that we need Taylor LB and at some point a proper 10 (Brownhill dropped or to replace one of Cork/Cullen),

I said Taylor should play left back as soon as Beyer played his debut cameo. It leaves us light down the left, because Charlie isn't going to play like Maatsen or Vitinho, but I'd have Zaroury out there. We could also let Roberts get forward more down the right, as 75% of our attacks, or open play, seems to focus down the left.
Move Tella more central, because he's wasted on the wing.
I'd drop Cullen. He's a useful player, but he can look very dodgy when he's pressed on the halfway line and often plays himself, and others into trouble. He doesn't create anything g going forward.

[BabylonClaret]

I said Taylor should play left back as soon as Beyer played his debut cameo. It leaves us light down the left, because Charlie isn't going to play like Maatsen or Vitinho, but I'd have Zaroury out there. We could also let Roberts get forward more down the right, as 75% of our attacks, or open play, seems to focus down the left.
Move Tella more central, because he's wasted on the wing.
I'd drop Cullen. He's a useful player, but he can look very dodgy when he's pressed on the halfway line and often plays himself, and others into trouble. He doesn't create anything g going forward.

I don't think Taylor would really offer less than Maatsen going forward. He's played that role effectively in a league higher for over 3 seasons. Bar the first couple of games Maatsen has looked average

[KRBFC]

I got pelters last week for this but this is exactly how I feel.

We might be the best team in the league. Certainly the best squad I think. But I see us as finishing mid table despite that talent because we’re not playing well enough to beat teams, which is frustrating.

These dropped points will certainly cost us.

Sense we’re in the weird position of needing to change & leave some great players on the bench in order to find the best team. Convinced after tonight that we need Taylor LB and at some point a proper 10 (Brownhill dropped or to replace one of Cork/Cullen),

I said at the time, selling Brownhill during the summer imo would have been a blessing in disguise for this team because he's too good not to play but the 10 role is negatively affecting the team. We are almost forced to force him into the team. I think selling him to fund that big powerful centre half Kouyate and Obafemi would've been great business for the team.

I like Maatsen, he offers a ton in the system going forwards which is his main role. Vitinho is not the answer at left back.

Imagine a fit Churlinov at 10, running and committing defenders from central areas. Not afraid to turn on the ball in tight areas.

It sounds laughable but I'd put Kevin Long on the bench and use him like Mike Jackson did last season, sub him on for the final 5, 5 at the back, head everything, experienced.

[KRBFC]

I don't think Taylor would really offer less than Maatsen going forward. He's played that role effectively in a league higher for over 3 seasons. Bar the first couple of games Maatsen has looked average

Maatsen has more goals for BFC in his first 45 minutes than Taylor has in his entire Burnley career. They're worlds apart in terms of delivery too.

[BabylonClaret]

How many did he score in the Prem? What was his delivery like there?

[RVclaret]

Brownhill is the issue, he plays in straight lines or the way he’s facing, that’s not what a number 10 needs to do.

Put a young Robbie Blake in that role end we are a completely different kettle of fish.

Good comment this.

Brownhill in that role is a bit of a conundrum.

While he contributes to some of our positive stuff, eg the goal at Cardiff where he moved into space and put in a nice cross, as well as the assist last night, he also limits us when trying to break down these low block teams.

What you need is, as you say, a more technical player capable of playing on the half turn, taking a defender out with a bit of skill and then having the quality to play it forwards. I think both Twine and Churlinov have more of this profile which is why it’s truly gutting they are both missing.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Good comment this.

Brownhill in that role is a bit of a conundrum.

While he contributes to some of our positive stuff, eg the goal at Cardiff where he moved into space and put in a nice cross, as well as the assist last night, he also limits us when trying to break down these low block teams.

What you need is, as you say, a more technical player capable of playing on the half turn, taking a defender out with a bit of skill and then having the quality to play it forwards. I think both Twine and Churlinov have more of this profile which is why it’s truly gutting they are both missing.

Not really sure where fits in tbh. Potentially play him in either cork or cullens position?

But I just can’t see that happening Cork has been our best player this season and cullen is Kompanys favourite.

[RVclaret]

Not really sure where fits in tbh. Potentially play him in either cork or cullens position?

But I just can’t see that happening Cork has been our best player this season and cullen is Kompanys favourite.

I think a mixture of rotation for Cullen / Cork then also in tougher games still where he is (wins a lot of second balls and perhaps is more dynamic with more space to move into). But the problem at the min is not having a 10 to replace him with the two I mentioned both out.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I think a mixture of rotation for Cullen / Cork then also in tougher games still where he is (wins a lot of second balls and perhaps is more dynamic with more space to move into). But the problem at the min is not having a 10 to replace him with the two I mentioned both out.

I would be tempted to give zaroury a go

[Woodleyclaret]

Brownhill is getting his head turned by transfer talk and his performance has dropped off
Perhaps we do cash him in and bring in the guy from Swansea or the Swedish striker from Coventry in January

[Spijed]

Everyone's moaning about our defence , but we've only conceded 12 in 12 games and 3 of those were in one match . Our problem is not creating and scoring more at the other end . We have plenty of the ball without actually hurting teams .

But let's not hide from the fact that despite only conceding 12 in 12 our defence is a big problem and until it gets resolved it will cause big issues.

We simply can't defend basic crosses.

[Colburn_Claret]

I don't think Taylor would really offer less than Maatsen going forward. He's played that role effectively in a league higher for over 3 seasons. Bar the first couple of games Maatsen has looked average

Taylor has it in his locker, as he showed at Leeds, but he's rarely, if ever, played that role for Burnley. There's no way he would get forward as much as M or V, but if he did I wouldn't complain.

[jedi_master]

The problem as far as I can see it is that our defence is too porous, soft and short to not play Cork and Cullen, but playing Cork and Cullen means we lack enough players with the craft and guile in forward areas to open teams up consistently.

It’s essentially the exact same problem that Southgate has with England - a lack of faith and trust in the defence meaning we need a more conservative midfield to protect their inadequacies. Case in point, the one game he dispensed with Cork was in our only defeat when he had to bring him on at half time and said it had been a mistake not to start him.

This negative/reductive midfield means that we are so often finding a goal from nowhere as opposed to being truly incisive (aside from Wigan and Blackpool, the goals seem to come from nowhere as opposed to any semblance of sustained pressure - notice I say ‘pressure’ not possession) and then don’t have the personnel to kill teams off despite dominating the ball.

I’m not sure what the answer is as looking at our squad I don’t see a man (other than Twine who could be a failure at this level yet for all we know - we shouldn’t be putting undue pressure on a young lad who’s never played at such a high level before) who can operate in those central areas and open teams up. We get loads of wide play but barely have anyone in the box as Jay drops deep and our midfield, as said, is largely unambitious to get into those areas aside from Brownhill.

Very frustrating to observe as we have a squad of players that look above this division, but they do not seem to have the correct strategy behind them to do what they should be doing in games where they have 75+% possession - and that’s on Kompany to work out, less so the players fault.

[KRBFC]

The problem as far as I can see it is that our defence is too porous, soft and short to not play Cork and Cullen, but playing Cork and Cullen means we lack enough players with the craft and guile in forward areas to open teams up consistently.

It’s essentially the exact same problem that Southgate has with England - a lack of faith and trust in the defence meaning we need a more conservative midfield to protect their inadequacies. Case in point, the one game he dispensed with Cork was in our only defeat when he had to bring him on at half time and said it had been a mistake not to start him.

This negative/reductive midfield means that we are so often finding a goal from nowhere as opposed to being truly incisive (aside from Wigan and Blackpool, the goals seem to come from nowhere as opposed to any semblance of sustained pressure - notice I say ‘pressure’ not possession) and then don’t have the personnel to kill teams off despite dominating the ball.

I’m not sure what the answer is as looking at our squad I don’t see a man (other than Twine who could be a failure at this level yet for all we know - we shouldn’t be putting undue pressure on a young lad who’s never played at such a high level before) who can operate in those central areas and open teams up. We get loads of wide play but barely have anyone in the box as Jay drops deep and our midfield, as said, is largely unambitious to get into those areas aside from Brownhill.

Very frustrating to observe as we have a squad of players that look above this division, but they do not seem to have the correct strategy behind them to do what they should be doing in games where they have 75+% possession - and that’s on Kompany to work out, less so the players fault.

When Jay drops deep, Brownhill should be making runs beyond and in behind, it's just not his thing though.

I think Brownhill/Cullen is defensive enough and energetic enough to win and press the ball. The one time we played those 2 together, we had Bastien at 10. Watford had 1 chance in that entire half. We had Costelloe and Barnes on the pitch too. Bastien isn't a 10 either, got into some wonderful positions in that half and bolloxed the final pass.

[Herts Clarets]

Too slow getting it out to our pacy wide men
Why only 1 sub used ?

Except our wide men aren't that pacy. They look quick because they are relatively short players, but i noticed last night and again on Saturday v Cardiff that they broke with far more pace than we show. We are physically a small side and particularly in this division it shows against bigger, more physical and quicker players. I keep reading that 'it will come' and 'will be great when it clicks', yet game after game we see the same thing. Team sits deep, we spend most of the game passing ponderously side to side and backwards in front of the opposition and create very little in the way of clear cut chances.

Discussion last night between Phil Bird and Westwood was on how we could hold onto a one goal lead, for me the focus should be on why, when we have 70% possession and 15 corners like last night, we are not working the opposition keeper more. Tippy tappy pass for the sake of passing with no end result will not get us promoted.

[Colburn_Claret]

When Jay drops deep, Brownhill should be making runs beyond and in behind, it's just not his thing though.

I think Brownhill/Cullen is defensive enough and energetic enough to win and press the ball. The one time we played those 2 together, we had Bastien at 10. Watford had 1 chance in that entire half. We had Costelloe and Barnes on the pitch too. Bastien isn't a 10 either, got into some wonderful positions in that half and bolloxed the final pass.

But if Brownhill did make those runs in behind, who is going to pick him out with a pass. The only player we have who does that pass is Brownhill. Cork can but is more often than not too deep to play it.
I've lost count of the number of times this season, we have been in a position to play a ball through the channel for a player to attack the box, and we just don't play it.

[ClaretPete001]

We've only conceded 12 goals and only 1 team has scored more than 1 against us. How can the defence be the problem?

We've scored 18 goals but 8 of them have been in two games. The other ten games we score around 1 a game.

The problem is obvious. Jay Rod is 33 and always more a number 10 than a centre forward. When Tella pushes up it exposes the Left back when he doesn't we don't score. The right side is too orthodox and we aren't breaking quickly enough from the wings or anywhere else.

It's been the same problem since day 1. From the 12th of October to the 10th of December we play the current best sides in the division.

Twine is likely the answer, but VK could do with a plan B....

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Should have gone for knutsen especially as I had a tenner on him. We cannot see a game out it seems and we are incredibly boring to watch. The build up is so slow you can often read whole articles on the net or catch up on news without missing anything!

The first game against Huddersfield should be the template we are aiming for , a bit of blood and thunder not pedestrian passing around the back shite.

[RVclaret]

The first game against Huddersfield should be the template we are aiming for , a bit of blood and thunder not pedestrian passing around the back shite.

Huddersfield let us play that evening, they were dire, left spaces everywhere. That’s without mentioning they had zero games to analyse of us to identify strengths/weaknesses etc, we were a brand new entity. First half yesterday Stoke literally played with a flat back 5 and sat on the edge of their box, completely different to how Huddersfield played.

Not sure how much football you watch but I watch quite a bit of City and even they, with the world class players they have, struggle to break down teams that sit so deep and compact.

Second half yesterday Stoke pushed up (a bit) and suddenly we found a few spaces, eg for the goal. Breaking down teams who set up like in the first half requires more craft / technical ability in the final third than we had on the pitch. This is why it’s disappointing to lose Churlinov and Twine, as well as miss out on O’Hare in the summer. They are the difference makers.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Huddersfield let us play that evening, they were dire, left spaces everywhere. That’s without mentioning they had zero games to analyse of us to identify strengths/weaknesses etc, we were a brand new entity. First half yesterday Stoke literally played with a flat back 5 and sat on the edge of their box, completely different to how Huddersfield played.

Not sure how much football you watch but I watch quite a bit of City and even they, with the world class players they have, struggle to break down teams that sit so deep and compact.

Second half yesterday Stoke pushed up (a bit) and suddenly we found a few spaces, eg for the goal. Breaking down teams who set up like in the first half requires more craft / technical ability in the final third than we had on the pitch. This is why it’s disappointing to lose Churlinov and Twine, as well as miss out on O’Hare in the summer. They are the difference makers.

I’m struggling to watch our matches at moment they are far too boring. I watch a lot of football but this style is turning me right off I’m afraid. Its not as bad as Dyche ball but its not very good either.

[Spijed]

We've only conceded 12 goals and only 1 team has scored more than 1 against us. How can the defence be the problem?

The fact that we generally have over 70% of the ball in matches means the opposing teams see less of the ball, thus are likely to create fewer chances. However, even if they only get one chance in a game they are likely to score from it as we are very weak defensively. I suspect the ratio of conceding goals compared to the number of chances created by the opposition is one of the highest in the league.

[Dark Cloud]

I'm definitely in the "Taylor to left back" camp. It seems obvious to me that THB and Beyer make a very good CB pairing and although Charlie Taylor has definitely done well at CB, he's a left back by trade, has played there dozens of times at the highest level and would surely tighten us up defensively down that side.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Passing for the sake of passing how about a long ball sometime

[ClaretPete001]

The fact that we generally have over 70% of the ball in matches means the opposing teams see less of the ball, thus are likely to create fewer chances. However, even if they only get one chance in a game they are likely to score from it as we are very weak defensively. I suspect the ratio of conceding goals compared to the number of chances created by the opposition is one of the highest in the league.

It's a fair point, but on the other hand having 70 per cent of the ball and only scoring 1 goal a game for the most part is arguably more the issue.

That's how I would look at it. The fact that we are only 1-0 up after 85 minutes invites opposition teams to have a go, If it was 2 or 3 they wouldn't bother.

[RVclaret]

I’m struggling to watch our matches at moment they are far too boring. I watch a lot of football but this style is turning me right off I’m afraid. Its not as bad as Dyche ball but its not very good either.

Fair enough. I’m the complete opposite and enjoying almost every minute. I do enjoy the tactical side of the game though so maybe that is why.

[jrgbfc]

It's a fair point, but on the other hand having 70 per cent of the ball and only scoring 1 goal a game for the most part is arguably more the issue.

That's how I would look at it. The fact that we are only 1-0 up after 85 minutes invites opposition teams to have a go, If it was 2 or 3 they wouldn't bother.

Having possession is all well and good but we barely worked their keeper last night. Teams are happy to sit in and let us have the ball.

[Swizzlestick]

Certainly more frustrating last night, particularly first half, but I can see what we are trying to do, and we show flashes of excellent football, not least the goal.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Fair enough. I’m the complete opposite and enjoying almost every minute. I do enjoy the tactical side of the game though so maybe that is why.

Passing it around the back for 85 minutes isn’t tactical its just boring waiting for an opposition to move out of position they have learned not to give any space. VK’s game plan has been well and truly sussed that’s why we concede near ninety minutes all the time because we are so light at the back, probably needs to revert to a flat back four as three at the back is not working.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Certainly more frustrating last night, particularly first half, but I can see what we are trying to do, and we show flashes of excellent football, not least the goal.

Passing it sideways for 85 minutes is excellent football ?I think you are easily pleased.

[Burnley Ace]

There is a reason that in previous season Tarks and Mee have been at the top of the “headed clearance” table and we had a significant number of shots from outside the area and that’s because we had 11 men behind the ball. How often did you think “they can do that all match”?

What is the point of high crosses into a packed box or shots from 25 yards out through a packed area, are we hoping for a deflection or to get something from the headed clearance?

[Burnley Ace]

Having possession is all well and good but we barely worked their keeper last night. Teams are happy to sit in and let us have the ball.

Like we did for the last 5 years?

[RVclaret]

Passing it around the back for 85 minutes isn’t tactical its just boring waiting for an opposition to move out of position they have learned not to give any space. VK’s game plan has been well and truly sussed that’s why we concede near ninety minutes all the time because we are so light at the back, probably needs to revert to a flat back four as three at the back is not working.

Hilariously bad take.

[Top Claret]

10 points dropped from winning positions and most of the goals conceded in the last 5 minutes says it all, lack of game management by our inexperienced manager.

He had the old heads sat on the bench and defenders at that and he didn't use them, he needs to learn how to run the clock down or we will never get out of this league

[JR1882]

We spent from the 70th minute last night strolling around Asif we were 5 up. Lazy and arrogant and we were punished.

[Swizzlestick]

Passing it sideways for 85 minutes is excellent football ?I think you are easily pleased.

We didn't 'pass it sideways for 85 minutes' - that's a ridiculous comment. We were for large parts of the game frustrated by a team that played five at the back with two DM's in front of them. We were also stymied by the fact our main attacking outlet, Tella, wasn't at the races. We also hit the cross bar, had a huge chance where the keeper somehow clawed the ball away from THB, another big chance where Tella should have squared it and a questionable moment where Tella was pulled back when he was about to race through. There's no point even bothering if you're going to broad brush everything.

[Swizzlestick]

We spent from the 70th minute last night strolling around Asif we were 5 up. Lazy and arrogant and we were punished.

While I wouldn't use such harsh language, I tend to agree with this. We seem to go more cautious and invite teams on.

[Lancasterclaret]

"Passed it sideways for 85 minutes"

"Not as boring as Dycheball but still boring"

Get a new hobby mate, this one clearly hasn't been for you for a number of years!

[vinrogue]

We have lost one game all season. We are not the finished article. We have players challenging in practically every position. I don't know if JBG is better than Benson, I don't know if Taylor is better than the German lad. When Twine and Westwood return I don't know if that will strengthen us. So, all I do know is VK is probably searching for these answers and many more via the training ground. UTC enjoy the journey!!

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Hilariously bad take.

What’s the game plan then?

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

We didn't 'pass it sideways for 85 minutes' - that's a ridiculous comment. We were for large parts of the game frustrated by a team that played five at the back with two DM's in front of them. We were also stymied by the fact our main attacking outlet, Tella, wasn't at the races. We also hit the cross bar, had a huge chance where the keeper somehow clawed the ball away from THB, another big chance where Tella should have squared it and a questionable moment where Tella was pulled back when he was about to race through. There's no point even bothering if you're going to broad brush everything.

Our back three passing stats must be off the charts.

[RVclaret]

What eventually comes with this style of play is more tempo due to knowing where your teammate is instinctively. It then allows for more one / two touch passing. Positional play is relatively complex and takes time. Potter’s Brighton only really came ‘good’ after 2 seasons of him there. Pep’s City finished 4th in season 1 with City fans not convinced.

If you go through Kompany’s Anderlecht game highlights online you’ll see a lot of their goals were scored with low crosses from inside the box leaving tap ins, or through balls to the onrushing strikers/wide players - we haven’t really seen that yet. Though its worth mentioning they also had the very technical duo of Yari and Zirkzee operating between the lines (Yari reminds me of Twine, from what I’ve seen).

If you have watched Amazon’s ‘All or Nothing’ on Arsenal there’s a clip (encourage you to watch) where Arteta is quizzing his players on memorising certain spaces teammates should be in, they were all struggling to get it right. Interestingly when I’ve watched Arsenal this season it looks like they may have mastered it, as they have been playing through teams like they aren’t there.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

What eventually comes with this style of play is more tempo due to knowing where your teammate is instinctively. It then allows for more one / two touch passing. Positional play is relatively complex and takes time. Potter’s Brighton only really came ‘good’ after 2 seasons of him there. Pep’s City finished 4th in season 1 with City fans not convinced.

If you go through Kompany’s Anderlecht game highlights online you’ll see a lot of their goals were scored with low crosses from inside the box leaving tap ins, or through balls to the onrushing strikers/wide players - we haven’t really seen that yet. Though its worth mentioning they also had the very technical duo of Yari and Zirkzee operating between the lines (Yari reminds me of Twine, from what I’ve seen).

If you have watched Amazon’s ‘All or Nothing’ on Arsenal there’s a clip (encourage you to watch) where Arteta is quizzing his players on memorising certain spaces teammates should be in, they were all struggling to get it right. Interestingly when I’ve watched Arsenal this season it looks like they may have mastered it, as they have been playing through teams like they aren’t there.

Sounds better than watching us at the moment

[ElectroClaret]

We simply can't defend basic crosses.

Yes, it's pretty obvious that this is a problem.

[Spijed]

I suppose it raises the question as to whether it's actually possible for a team to be good in attack and good in defence as well?

Even Man City get carved open at times by teams with better strikers (latter stages of CL and teams such as Spurs & Liverpool in Prem). So perhaps we might just have to accept that we'll need to score more goals than the opposition.

Ball playing centre halves, like England have, generally aren't good at defending, so perhaps it's just something we'll have to accept, even in our side.

We couldn't have Tarkowski, Pope & Mee in the team and play the way we currently do, although I wish we'd park the bus for the last ten minutes of every game.

[KRBFC]

But if Brownhill did make those runs in behind, who is going to pick him out with a pass. The only player we have who does that pass is Brownhill. Cork can but is more often than not too deep to play it.
I've lost count of the number of times this season, we have been in a position to play a ball through the channel for a player to attack the box, and we just don't play it.

He doesn't always need to be played through, movement alone drags defenders around and creates space for others.

[ClaretPete001]

Spijed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:24 am

We simply can't defend basic crosses.

Yes, it's pretty obvious that this is a problem.

Yes, it's pretty obvious that this is a problem.

Not necessarily. I keep saying the same thing over and over but ...

The Cardiff goal came from a cross by a full back who was Billy no mates for periods.

The Stoke goal because they had 3 breaking on the right and the crosser of the ball was in the box and allowed to cross the ball from a standing start directly onto the head of the scorer.

Not great from Roberts or Muric but fundamentally how does a team 20th in the division end up with 3 breaking free in our box in the 87th minute with a player stood on his heels able to play the ball either: down the flank to a player free in our box; or onto the head of a forward?

Surely, the defence should expect better...?

[Colburn_Claret]

He doesn't always need to be played through, movement alone drags defenders around and creates space for others.

The same can be said about nearly the whole team. I've been moaning for weeks, that every time Roberts carries the ball forward, Benson runs towards him, dragging the defenders and closing the space, when he should be shaping to run down the line off the last man. Yet, the fans love him!!
There is loads about our game that is excellent, but the little details that we miss, like opportunities to play a ball through the channels, like not playing the quick first time ball across the goalmouth, like turning backwards when the momentum of the team is set up to press onwards. That can't all be blamed on Brownhill, who is having an excellent season. They are all in a learning stage, and culpability is shared equally.

[agreenwood]

What we generally do very well is win the ball back in the opposition’s half. We did it a lot last night.

When you’re facing a side who almost had a back six at times, that’s your opportunity to break the line, whilst they are getting back in their defensive shape. Too often last night, we didn’t transition into attack quickly enough and slowed the play down. Had we taken advantage of our excellent pressing on one or two occasions, we’d be having a different discussion entirely today.

There’s not a lot wrong in my view. Certainly nothing that can’t be fixed with a bit more work.