Pace

[Vegas Claret]

Not sure that will be the case given the World Economy

Football, especially in the Premier League seems to have it's own economy

[Cooclaret]

I don’t think ‘plenty’ people on here did state that. I can remember one specifically who was convinced and he isn’t posting on here much anymore !!
I also don’t know of anyone at all (who support Burnley) who would rather this go wrong on or off the pitch just to prove they were correct. I honestly think that’s just a bit of a silly comment - but if you know of these fans then apologies in advance.

I think you’re being disingenuous here Vinny. There’s definitely a cohort of fans who are active on this message board who would love to be proved right about their worries about Pace.

They actively down-talked Pace, belittled him, and shouted down those who spoke against their thoughts and views. In my opinion it was a form of oppression.

In reality, Pace was setting about replacing systems of communication and control that he felt was rotten and needed change. This eroded some of the power and control some of those individuals had and has left others in the dark.

The staff turnover at the club shows how deeply rotten the systems were and how they didn’t suit the workings of a premier league club. I have also heard that Kompany has been a part of this change culture.

[Big Vinny K]

Oh there's definitely some who don't want it to work out.
They want to be able to trot out "I told you so"
They're also the same sort of people who'd only appear on here,.when Dyche was the manager, if we went on a bad run because they love a bit of doom and gloom.

Several on here were adamant this wasn't going to work and we were going to be knackered this season, they've made all sorts of allegations that they couldn't support and still can't.

They're a joke quite simply.

You mean trot out ‘told you so’ like a few on this thread ? Ok

Who are these several posters then ?
Like I said I can think of one who was adamant that the strategy of selling our premier league players and buying relatively unknown and unproven talent from abroad was not going to work. And that poster was Dandeclaret. He was entitled to his opinion and based on his previous posting history I would be staggered if he is unhappy that so far he is being proven to be wrong.

[dsr]

I think you’re being disingenuous here Vinny. There’s definitely a cohort of fans who are active on this message board who would love to be proved right about their worries about Pace.

They actively down-talked Pace, belittled him, and shouted down those who spoke against their thoughts and views. In my opinion it was a form of oppression.

In reality, Pace was setting about replacing systems of communication and control that he felt was rotten and needed change. This eroded some of the power and control some of those individuals had and has left others in the dark.

The staff turnover at the club shows how deeply rotten the systems were and how they didn’t suit the workings of a premier league club. I have also heard that Kompany has been a part of this change culture.

I don't know about the staff in general, but I know the Community department used to win all sorts of awards and their staff have all left or been pushed. They should be exempted from any generalisations about rottenness in the club.

[Cooclaret]

I don't know about the staff in general, but I know the Community department used to win all sorts of awards and their staff have all left or been pushed. They should be exempted from any generalisations about rottenness in the club.

That’s a fair point made and taken

[ClaretPete001]

It absolutely does not.

By your rational Messi couldn’t be signed by a Premier League as no Premier League club has ever signed him.

I think this is the first time in history someone's rationale has been questioned by comparing Messi to Brownhill.

Messi did not play in the PL because he earned twice as much elsewhere..

If he had wanted to play for a quarter of the money then he may have ended up at Burnley playing in the Championship.

And then you could say.... Nonsense Pete, your rationale is flawed, look at Messi he could play in the PL but chose to play for us instead.

[Spijed]

Could being the operative word there.

As it is, we haven't, the squad has been rebuilt despite plenty on here stating as fact it wouldn't happen etc.

Some people need this to go wrong, to satisfy their own needs.

I think the pessimism came about because those who really do know their stuff about football finances said it was a very bad move for a small club like Burnley to be involved in a deal like this.

And even at a club like Man U. no-one had anything positive to say about their leveraged takeover, so it was no suprise many were very worried about the situation at Burnley.

[Big Vinny K]

I think you’re being disingenuous here Vinny. There’s definitely a cohort of fans who are active on this message board who would love to be proved right about their worries about Pace.

They actively down-talked Pace, belittled him, and shouted down those who spoke against their thoughts and views. In my opinion it was a form of oppression.

In reality, Pace was setting about replacing systems of communication and control that he felt was rotten and needed change. This eroded some of the power and control some of those individuals had and has left others in the dark.

The staff turnover at the club shows how deeply rotten the systems were and how they didn’t suit the workings of a premier league club. I have also heard that Kompany has been a part of this change culture.

I am not being disingenuous at all.
There were certainly a number of posters who disagreed and still do disagree with the financial model.
But I don’t know any posters who would love to be proved right about their worries about Pace who would as you are intimating rather the club fail on the pitch (inevitably leading to them failing off the pitch)

But if you think there is a cohort of fans who feel this way who post on this board then call them out. If you are correct then they will have nothing to hide.

[ClaretPete001]

I think you’re being disingenuous here Vinny. There’s definitely a cohort of fans who are active on this message board who would love to be proved right about their worries about Pace.

They actively down-talked Pace, belittled him, and shouted down those who spoke against their thoughts and views. In my opinion it was a form of oppression.

In reality, Pace was setting about replacing systems of communication and control that he felt was rotten and needed change. This eroded some of the power and control some of those individuals had and has left others in the dark.

The staff turnover at the club shows how deeply rotten the systems were and how they didn’t suit the workings of a premier league club. I have also heard that Kompany has been a part of this change culture.

I mean I could imagine this being written during the Frank Teasdale era but can anyone actually take this seriously?

Prior to the takeover we were a cash rich community club with £80 million in the bank and 7 years in the PL.

As Vinny says, we can't be proved right because the club would be in big trouble and no-one wants that....! The club is too important to the town.

It was too important for a risky leveraged buyout and it is too important for the buyout to fail.

Once the debt is paid off and we have progressed as a club then rightly Alan Pace will be lauded from the hills and will be tens of millions richer.

[Big Vinny K]

I don't know about the staff in general, but I know the Community department used to win all sorts of awards and their staff have all left or been pushed. They should be exempted from any generalisations about rottenness in the club.

That’s a very good point.
I know of a lot of the employees at the club who were let go pretty ruthlessly and for no clear reason either as they were replaced by others with little or no evidence that they had more experience.

But that said under Garlick and Dyche when we were “settled” in the Premier League I did see a very significant increase in our non playing staff at the club over a period of only 2 or 3 years. I never really understand why we took on the level of new staff we did. To me it felt unnecessary and I do not think as fans we saw any visible benefits of what these additional people brought (I’m excluding the community side here)

I don’t think that the significant reduction we have seen in the staffing numbers was purely down to relegation. The cull started when we were in the Premier League. Whilst I don’t agree whatsoever with the way I have been told that some of the people were let go I don’t disagree that for the most part it was needed.

[ClaretPete001]

That’s a very good point.
I know of a lot of the employees at the club who were let go pretty ruthlessly and for no clear reason either as they were replaced by others with little or no evidence that they had more experience.

But that said under Garlick and Dyche when we were “settled” in the Premier League I did see a very significant increase in our non playing staff at the club over a period of only 2 or 3 years. I never really understand why we took on the level of new staff we did. To me it felt unnecessary and I do not think as fans we saw any visible benefits of what these additional people brought (I’m excluding the community side here)

I don’t think that the significant reduction we have seen in the staffing numbers was purely down to relegation. The cull started when we were in the Premier League. Whilst I don’t agree whatsoever with the way I have been told that some of the people were let go I don’t disagree that for the most part it was needed.

I'd check the accounts - it's quite possible the playing wages dropped and the back office costs increased.

[Big Vinny K]

I'd check the accounts - it's quite possible the playing wages dropped and the back office costs increased.

I check the accounts every year Pete - it’s like Christmas for me when those accounts are published !!

The number of employees almost doubled over a pretty short period of time.
As you know players wages fluctuated quite a bit because of the bonus situation and where we finished in the league etc.
When I see for example the number of people we were employing in our marketing team their lack output and experience compared to the Man City marketing team who I did some work with 10 years ago then I do think that in a few areas of the club we just seem to grow staff without anyone at the top of the club having much of a clue what they were doing.
And I am not comparing Burnley to Man City as in the owners wealth and resources because from a marketing point of view they were doing things digitally and with analytics for their supporters 10 years ago that we are still not doing now.

I also dealt with Man City 20 years ago under the old regime and they were a basket case of a club financially and wasted so much money on things like marketing without having a clue what they were doing but still employing lots of people and spending lots of money.

[Cooclaret]

I am not being disingenuous at all.
There were certainly a number of posters who disagreed and still do disagree with the financial model.
But I don’t know any posters who would love to be proved right about their worries about Pace who would as you are intimating rather the club fail on the pitch (inevitably leading to them failing off the pitch)

But if you think there is a cohort of fans who feel this way who post on this board then call them out. If you are correct then they will have nothing to hide.

And get banned?

[Duffer_]

And get banned?

You won't get banned for quoting other posters. Surely their words speak for themselves?

[Big Vinny K]

And get banned?

Get banned for what ?

[Cooclaret]

Get banned for what ?

Calling out the establishment. They don’t take kindly to being questioned. They also never explain themselves.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

How much money is now borrowed onto the club, I haven’t really followed where we’re at with that.

£60m players sales have all gone to pay dell?

[spt_claret]

I'm never going to be comfortable with the debt or takeover terms, some of the handling of the club's relationship with the community, or the downgrading of the Academy. Still have a lot I dislike and frankly distrust about elements of the deal.
But I will give Pace credit for his hiring of Kompany paying off so far- we're barely a 1/3 through so it's still early days but currently the gamble has worked far better than I ever expected and I'm very glad to have been wrong.
I'll also give him and Kompany credit for managing to begin the rebuild of a young, competitive squad on a pittance of a budget. Again, doesn't make me happy with the extent of the turnover and have my misgivings on some individual retentions/departures but they seem to have pulled a few rabbits out of hats. However the reliance on loans for 3/4 defenders and a key attacker is a concern that leaves us precarious next summer depending on which league we're in. It's another high risk strategy and given the volatility of not just football in general but the world economy I'm still uncomfortable with the level of risk.

But yes, hiring Kompany and the majority of the squad refresh has vastly overperformed on what I thought we would manage given Kompanys record, our budget, and the general track record of all clubs at achieving such drastic changes. So for that I give Pace credit.

[Big Vinny K]

Calling out the establishment. They don’t take kindly to being questioned. They also never explain themselves.

What are you talking about ? This isn’t The Crown !!

Surely all you need to do is find the posts and posters and quote what they have said to prove your allegation that all these people would prefer the club to fail on and off the pitch to prove themselves right than for us to succeed on the pitch.
It will be all there in black and white if you are correct and you are not going to get banned for simply quoting what somebody has already said.

No need to over complicate things by coming up with conspiracy theories that the message board is being run by the Mafia !

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Vinnie appears to be unable to grasp the fact that some people don't like being reminded of stuff.

[ClaretPete001]

I check the accounts every year Pete - it’s like Christmas for me when those accounts are published !!

The number of employees almost doubled over a pretty short period of time.
As you know players wages fluctuated quite a bit because of the bonus situation and where we finished in the league etc.
When I see for example the number of people we were employing in our marketing team their lack output and experience compared to the Man City marketing team who I did some work with 10 years ago then I do think that in a few areas of the club we just seem to grow staff without anyone at the top of the club having much of a clue what they were doing.
And I am not comparing Burnley to Man City as in the owners wealth and resources because from a marketing point of view they were doing things digitally and with analytics for their supporters 10 years ago that we are still not doing now.

I also dealt with Man City 20 years ago under the old regime and they were a basket case of a club financially and wasted so much money on things like marketing without having a clue what they were doing but still employing lots of people and spending lots of money.

It hasn't changed under Pace. Mostly it is staff related to the playing staff that has reduced not the admin and office functions.

[Big Vinny K]

It hasn't changed under Pace. Mostly it is staff related to the playing staff that has reduced not the admin and office functions.

You sure about that ?
I know a lot of people who have been there for years who have left and my understanding was that not a lot of them have been replaced.
The commercial hospitality team is just one area that I had been told had been cut back.

[ClaretPete001]

You sure about that ?
I know a lot of people who have been there for years who have left and my understanding was that not a lot of them have been replaced.
The commercial hospitality team is just one area that I had been told had been cut back.

Staff numbers are cited in the accounts. It may have changed since but the last facts we have it appears that only the playing side of things had reduced.

That's why I suggested looking at the accounts just to make sure I haven't got it wrong.

[NRC]

My take on Pace is that the kudos goes back way before making the brave decision to fire Dyche and then recruit VK. He is clearly business-competent and identified a situation that could generate personal wealth for him and the backers as well as for the entity he bought. That he bought it leveraged, as he did, is not his fault. He was allowed AND FACILITATED in doing that. The previous Board could always have said no, but they didn't.

As for dealing with the above, he's the right guy - the debt will be paid, the operating model succeeds (future value of our young players - rinse and repeat), and "our club" becomes a modern club. The only thing I would say is that I do hope he is working on a succession strategy with VK for when he leaves, even in outline at this stage

[Big Vinny K]

Vinnie appears to be unable to grasp the fact that some people don't like being reminded of stuff.

You and cooclaret seem unable to grasp the fact that it’s a pretty simple request to both of you to evidence what you are have alleged that lots of people on this board would rather the club fail so that they can be proven to be correct.
It’s really not that difficult.
Just name them and provide a quote from them which proves what you are saying.
If they posted what you have said then there is absolutely nothing wrong with them being reminded of stuff.

Firstly cooclaret says he would be banned for quoting posters. Then he said that it’s some kind of establishment type conspiracy. And then you say that these people don’t like to be reminded of stuff.

Some people (not me obviously) might get the impression that you are making this stuff up.

[gandhisflipflop]

You and cooclaret seem unable to grasp the fact that it’s a pretty simple request to both of you to evidence what you are have alleged that lots of people on this board would rather the club fail so that they can be proven to be correct.
It’s really not that difficult.
Just name them and provide a quote from them which proves what you are saying.
If they posted what you have said then there is absolutely nothing wrong with them being reminded of stuff.

Firstly cooclaret says he would be banned for quoting posters. Then he said that it’s some kind of establishment type conspiracy. And then you say that these people don’t like to be reminded of stuff.

Some people (not me obviously) might get the impression that you are making this stuff up.

Here are a few posts in a 2 minute search just by using the favourite buzz words…

[gandhisflipflop]

And a few more

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You and cooclaret seem unable to grasp the fact that it’s a pretty simple request to both of you to evidence what you are have alleged that lots of people on this board would rather the club fail so that they can be proven to be correct.
It’s really not that difficult.
Just name them and provide a quote from them which proves what you are saying.
If they posted what you have said then there is absolutely nothing wrong with them being reminded of stuff.

Firstly cooclaret says he would be banned for quoting posters. Then he said that it’s some kind of establishment type conspiracy. And then you say that these people don’t like to be reminded of stuff.

Some people (not me obviously) might get the impression that you are making this stuff up.

Care to retract your last sentence?

[Big Vinny K]

Of course it is a piece of p*ss to find posts that raise concerns or were vehemently against Pace and the way he took over the club. Nobody is denying that for one minute - there were probably more posters against the takeover than for it so a quick search would bring up hundreds of quotes.

Unfortunately none of the above reference anything about what you and Cooclaret said and what I specifically asked you to evidence. ie that these posters said that they would prefer the club to fail than succeed just so they can be proven correct.

Keep looking though - or maybe the posters might come on and back up what you have said about them.

[Big Vinny K]

Care to retract your last sentence?

Can you actually read ?
Are you one of those people who failed your exams because you never read the question ?

[Jakubclaret]

The mensa master is out in full force tonight the old pointless arguments are sorely missed.

[Big Vinny K]

One of the post you quoted literally says they would be happy to be proven wrong !!!!!

[Big Vinny K]

Our resident fruit loop has turned up.
Brill

[Jakubclaret]

Good company's arrived.

[Darnhill Claret]

Just moving the discussion on a little. From Stan Ternent onwards we have had managers and owners who have improved the club I support. Their personal drive has led us to be a bigger club than we appear from the outside. Now maybe for the first time we have a manager and owner who seem totally aligned in how the club continues to improve and progress. It’s great to be a supporter at this time.
However when there was a recent article about Aston Villa considering VK for their managerial position we learnt that VK couldn’t manage yet in the Premier League as he hasn’t got all the relevant coaching badges.

So my questions are, who would have been our new manager if we hadn’t been relegated?

We also seem to be really grateful that VK still considered taking the position after relegation.

But wouldn’t we have needed relegation in order that V K could indeed take the job?

I’m now thinking that I should have backed VK (again) to be next Burnley manager after we were relegated, whereas I thought that lessened the possibility.

[ClaretPete001]

CoolClaret makes the point that there is an orthodoxy determined to criticise ALK but this thread shows the opposite it is a minority that every time ALK is mentioned negatively start to post ad hominem comments then the straw man arguments and finally it descends into absurdity.

This is how these debates always end. The reality is that ALK bought a PL club and after two years we are 17 games into a championship season playing 5 loanees in the first team.

Those are facts.

My opinion is that we are playing the best football I've ever seen on Turf or at least since the 70s. I hold both views without any contradiction.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Can you actually read ?
Are you one of those people who failed your exams because you never read the question ?

Wind your neck in sunshine.

Go use the search function like the rest of us do and you'll find all the vitriol, false allegations and outright lies that have been spouted.

There are people on here who'll only appear during the bad times because that's what they revel in, others stay on and dismiss anything positive

If you're not seeing that, then I suggest you open your eyes.

[Duffer_]

All these posters that wish us to suffer so they can be proven right but none actually say it. Still, somehow, we know they're thinking it. They sound like the anti-growth coalition. Other fictious bogeymen exist - the history books are littered with them.

[Big Vinny K]

Wind your neck in sunshine.

Go use the search function like the rest of us do and you'll find all the vitriol, false allegations and outright lies that have been spouted.

There are people on here who'll only appear during the bad times because that's what they revel in, others stay on and dismiss anything positive

If you're not seeing that, then I suggest you open your eyes.

“Wind MY neck in” ?

I know that people have been over the top in what they have said about Pace - and I have called them out myself plenty of times.
But for you to say that these posters would rather the club fail just so that they can be proven wrong is no better than their extreme views on Pace.

As Pete has also pointed it’s perfectly normal to have concerns with our financial model and level of debt but yet be delighted with our new players, new manager and exciting style of football. It’s also fine to give Pace the credit for securing Kompany because that was undoubtedly largely down to him.

Most fans and posters on this board just have a fairly balanced view of all of this. And personally I don’t know any fan even those who are vehemently against Pace and the way he took over the club who would like to see the club fail on the pitch. You seemed to think that there are plenty who post on this board who fall into that category.

[Cooclaret]

There’s a 4 page thread called ‘Pace Out’.

There’s 200 plus page takeover thread.

Both are littered with those who belittled Pace, the takeover, the club, Garlick and anyone who supported the sale.

You can tell you’re one of the older members of the board Vinny. To resort to that was just childish and indicative of a past generations behaviour.

[Jakubclaret]

CoolClaret makes the point that there is an orthodoxy determined to criticise ALK but this thread shows the opposite it is a minority that every time ALK is mentioned negatively start to post ad hominem comments then the straw man arguments and finally it descends into absurdity.

This is how these debates always end. The reality is that ALK bought a PL club and after two years we are 17 games into a championship season playing 5 loanees in the first team.

Those are facts.

My opinion is that we are playing the best football I've ever seen on Turf or at least since the 70s. I hold both views without any contradiction.

Subtract the 5 we are screwballed in a results sense.

[Big Vinny K]

There’s a 4 page thread called ‘Pace Out’.

There’s 200 plus page takeover thread.

Both are littered with those who belittled Pace, the takeover, the club, Garlick and anyone who supported the sale.

You can tell you’re one of the older members of the board Vinny. To resort to that was just childish and indicative of a past generations behaviour.

To resort to what ?
You mean calling you out for making stuff up ?
I have said that lots of people criticised Pace and the takeover and I am fully aware that lots were over the top with their criticism. And no I did not agree with a lot of what was said and told a few posters this too (and we all know who they are)
But it’s you (not me) who has said that there are plenty of fans and people on this forum who would rather burnley fail on the pitch so that they can be proven right about Pace.
I am saying that I don’t think these fans exist purely based on a view that firstly I have never seen anyone post that on this board and secondly there is a hell of a lot of burnley fans who have had to endure far far worse owners than Alan Pace and they still wanted us to do well on the pitch.
Because at the end of the day it’s hard to comprehend that fans who love the club and love football can sit and watch their team and want them to get beat.

[Darnhill Claret]

What is the point in ‘subtracting the 5’? We are using the loan market in the best possible way. You either use the loan market as VK is doing, don’t use it at all or use it but for some reason don’t utilise the players.

[CoolClaret]

CoolClaret makes the point that there is an orthodoxy determined to criticise ALK but this thread shows the opposite it is a minority that every time ALK is mentioned negatively start to post ad hominem comments then the straw man arguments and finally it descends into absurdity.

This is how these debates always end. The reality is that ALK bought a PL club and after two years we are 17 games into a championship season playing 5 loanees in the first team.

Those are facts.

My opinion is that we are playing the best football I've ever seen on Turf or at least since the 70s. I hold both views without any contradiction.

CooClaret not me!

Not sure why a new user would pick that username… the skeptical side of me thinks it’s because it looks a lot like mine but maybe I’m just being paranoid…

[Jakubclaret]

What is the point in ‘subtracting the 5’? We are using the loan market in the best possible way. You either use the loan market as VK is doing, don’t use it at all or use it but for some reason don’t utilise the players.

You don't need to subtract the 5 if the plan reaches promotion if it doesn't we need to coffer up the reddies which I think will be problematic in the least because they are well & truly in the shop window & prime for bigger clubs than us. It's good if it takes us where we need to be if it doesn't then it's something else

[Darnhill Claret]

Nothing to worry about then.

[Jakubclaret]

Nothing to worry about then.

We'll see on that score.

[gandhisflipflop]

You don't need to subtract the 5 if the plan reaches promotion if it doesn't we need to coffer up the reddies which I think will be problematic in the least because they are well & truly in the shop window & prime for bigger clubs than us. It's good if it takes us where we need to be if it doesn't then it's something else

Then we get 5 more loans using the scouting system the same way we did this summer.

[Bosscat]

CooClaret not me!

Not sure why a new user would pick that username… the skeptical side of me thinks it’s because it looks a lot like mine but maybe I’m just being paranoid…

Identity theft on UTC whatever next ... Devils Advocaat hope not one DA is enough on here ....

Back to the title subject...

Why can't folk just get behind the revolution we are witnessing at BFC ... the ones complaining are nearly all the ones who's voices were against Garlic and Dyche too....

Whatever the ins and outs of the takeover ... it happened and we have to lump it ... Pace seems to be making a fist of it, and backing the manager he has employed with the players etc ...

We are witnessing the best and most exciting football I have seen played by Burnley Players ... I get more excited now on match days than I have been for years ... Long may it continue

[Jakubclaret]

Then we get 5 more loans using the scouting system the same way we did this summer.

We could it's experimental the next 5 could do the same job as the last 5 maybe better you never know, everything is a gamble we don't own the players & hope the success they bring enables us to own them, you could argue it could be a better strategy buying the players instead of a lucky merry go round.