Benefit system to get a 10.1% pay increase

[evensteadiereddie]

Have you a figure for the "significant" amount of people with, apparently, no intention of working?

[Juan Tanamera]

I'm a bit past the sell by date for full-time employment now, but I'd rather be earning an half decent wage than living off the paltry state pension like some people have to.
Benefits eh, who needs them?

[fatboy47]

Fantastic place FB47 been twice to Tresco 1st time flew into St Marys from Lands End and this year on a Fred Olsen Cruise ... we love it

I always pop over to Tresco when I can in my lads little boat.. Just for the walk round the top end, a pint of lunch in the New Inn and a kip on the beach as I wait for the tide to float me off again. Stunning.. Next stop America when your out there.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Just to fix Lancs’ post earlier, it isn’t 2.5m unable to work, it is 2.5m not working. There is a difference.

That is not to say there isn’t a problem with illness, there is. There is also problems with cost of living, food banks etc.

But some of those 2.5m could do some work, e.g. from home as a call centre worker part time, but the system doesn’t incentivise that accordingly so they choose not to. That can be true simultaneously with the chunk of people who need our sympathy, and it can also be true that those people who could do some work need our sympathy too.

Unless we get our productivity up, get more people working, more skills, less people retiring early or cutting their hours, we’ll continue to decline as a country. Policy / levers should be with that objective in mind.

[Rowls]

Have you a figure for the "significant" amount of people with, apparently, no intention of working?

From this week's Spectator magazine:

"Unemployment, by formal definition, has fallen: a dip of 0.2 percentage points on the quarter, down to 3.6 per cent. Very few people seeking work are struggling to find it. But widen the definition to include everyone not employed and claiming out-of-work benefits (a figure not published by the government but discernible from the DWP database) and you hit a figure closer to 13 per cent nationally – rising to 20 per cent in Liverpool, Birmingham and Glasgow.

The ONS stresses this general point: the fall in employment is mainly because so many people have stopped looking for work altogether. The updated figures for inactivity suggest that the number of people inactive due to long-term sickness has risen by 402,000 since the pandemic started. "

About 390,000 people have joined the definition of "long term sick" since the first covid lockdown. They are, by definition, not officially looking for work.

[Lancasterclaret]

Just to fix Lancs’ post earlier, it isn’t 2.5m unable to work, it is 2.5m not working. There is a difference.

That is not to say there isn’t a problem with illness, there is. There is also problems with cost of living, food banks etc.

But some of those 2.5m could do some work, e.g. from home as a call centre worker part time, but the system doesn’t incentivise that accordingly so they choose not to. That can be true simultaneously with the chunk of people who need our sympathy, and it can also be true that those people who could do some work need our sympathy too.

Unless we get our productivity up, get more people working, more skills, less people retiring early or cutting their hours, we’ll continue to decline as a country. Policy / levers should be with that objective in mind.

Just checking here CC, but you are not advocating forcing people not to early retire, or work when they can't, or anything remotely like that which wouldn't look out of place in an authoritarian dictatorship?

I got the figures from a long twitter thread by Robert Peston, so I'll link it so people can read the whole thing

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1592422258672570369

[warksclaret]

Have you a figure for the "significant" amount of people with, apparently, no intention of working?

No I have no figures , and impossible to quantify. Its a fine line-I have met too many of them in my time, and more recently. Once you talk to them about the possibility of finding work, you don't need to be too bright to know there is no intention of working.There will always be an element of people sick, awaiting hospital treatment and with disabilities. Not including these. Be very surprised if you have never met anyone who does not want to work

[Lancasterclaret]

No I have no figures , and impossible to quantify. Its a fine line-I have met too many of them in my time, and more recently. Once you talk to them about the possibility of finding work, you don't need to be too bright to know there is no intention of working.There will always be an element of people sick, awaiting hospital treatment and with disabilities. Not including these. Be very surprised if you have never met anyone who does not want to work

But you don't have figures, and its what you believe

I get that lived experience is important, but surely you can see you cannot generalise like that for an entire country?

[Big Vinny K]

No I have no figures , and impossible to quantify. Its a fine line-I have met too many of them in my time, and more recently. Once you talk to them about the possibility of finding work, you don't need to be too bright to know there is no intention of working.There will always be an element of people sick, awaiting hospital treatment and with disabilities. Not including these. Be very surprised if you have never met anyone who does not want to work

Be prepared to be very surprised then.
I have never met anyone who does not want to work.

In your sample size of people you know or have ever met how many would you say do not want to work ? You must have during your life met and known lots of people and the vast majority of them do work surely ?
Just wondering what this “significant” number is - in terms of a rough ball park percentage ?

My own view is that the language people use when discussing this kind of debate will often be clouded by an emotive opinion of what they feel about people they may have met or heard about who are using the benefits system instead of looking for a job. Most of us would not disagree with this or find it hard to relate to after working all our lives. But it’s very easy to generalise and exaggerate how big an issue this is - and like I say the language people use can often be clouded by their political views

[aggi]

...

When Romania joined in 2007, this led to a further influx, largely from the criminal fraternity. Between 2008 - 2013, 28,000 different Romanians were arrested in the United Kingdom, at which time only 56,000 Romanians were officially living here.

I was intrigued by this unlikely looking stat. Turns out it isn't correct.

[Lancasterclaret]

I was intrigued by this unlikely looking stat. Turns out it isn't correct.

I'm shocked

Shocked I tell you

[claret2018]

No I have no figures , and impossible to quantify. Its a fine line-I have met too many of them in my time, and more recently. Once you talk to them about the possibility of finding work, you don't need to be too bright to know there is no intention of working.There will always be an element of people sick, awaiting hospital treatment and with disabilities. Not including these. Be very surprised if you have never met anyone who does not want to work

That might say more about the sort of people you hang around with than anything else.

I’ve never met, or heard of anyone (who actually exists rather than a figment of the Daily Mail’s imagination) who didn’t want to work.

[Gaia]

The govt haven't announced the 2023 benefit increases yet.

[Rowls]

But you don't have figures, and its what you believe

I get that lived experience is important, but surely you can see you cannot generalise like that for an entire country?

I’ve posted the figures above actually.

The thing with generalisations is that generally they’re very often true. Anyone who’s ever worked in the benefit system will tell you there is substantially but significant number of people determined to game the welfare system rather than work.

For some it a very conscious and deliberate choice. Many more fall into the trap in the same way others fall into a specific occupation - Through chance and happenstance and because it’s what those around them are doing.

The Sisyphian task of the welfare system is to keep this number as low as is possible. The fact that “long term sick” has swelled by 400,000 in the past year or so shows how quickly and easily these numbers can swell when they’re not being watched.

[Lancasterclaret]

I’ve posted the figures above actually.

The thing with generalisations is that generally they’re very often true. Anyone who’s ever worked in the benefit system will tell you there is substantially but significant number of people determined to game the welfare system rather than work.

For some it a very conscious and deliberate choice. Many more fall into the trap in the same way others fall into a specific occupation - Through chance and happenstance and because it’s what those around them are doing.

The Sisyphian task of the welfare system is to keep this number as low as is possible. The fact that “long term sick” has swelled by 400,000 in the past year or so shows how quickly and easily these numbers can swell when they’re not being watched.

So the long term sick aren't actually sick then?

Good to know

[Rowls]

So the long term sick aren't actually sick then?

Good to know

“So what you’re saying is…”

Never change, Lancs, never change.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So the long term sick aren't actually sick then?

Good to know

Some of the people classed as long term sick aren't actually long term sick, that can surely be acknowledged when there have been people caught out and it's made the news.

There are also people with long term illnesses unable to get help because the system has decided they're not actually ill, despite their doctor having to send a letter into the DWP annually stating that this person's illness isn't going to go away, I know someone who's PIP was taken away because a pen pusher decided to ignore the doctor who did the surgery....

The system is broken, too many pen pushers with no/little medical knowledge who aren't interested in getting/taking medical advice and they're making incorrect decisions based on their lack of medical knowledge.
They're awarding benefits to people who don't deserve it and not giving it to others who do.

Even the Guardian knows there's an issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... in-britain

[basil6345789]

If you think working people don’t claim benefits you’re living on a different planet.

All courtesy of Tony and Gordon's nanny state. As Colonel Abrahams sang - "trapped".

[bfcmik]

The Sisyphian task of the welfare system is to keep this number as low as is possible. The fact that “long term sick” has swelled by 400,000 in the past year or so shows how quickly and easily these numbers can swell when they’re not being watched.

The fact that hospital treatments diminished to almost zero for 18 months during the 'official' pandemic and the loss of trained staff due to Brexit surely has nothing to do with the fact that the numbers of unhealthy people have risen.

Ailments that would have been able to be treated relatively easily have become ailments that need significant interventions, the queue to join a waiting list for treatment is often as long as the waiting list itself. I had a cataract and was told that there was a 12 month waiting list to get a triage appointment which would let you join the waiting list for the operation |(fortunately my GP was able to refer me to a private clinic with the operation being paid for by the NHS in less than 5 weeks from referral)

Government policies that led to the very rich getting richer (the top 5% were almost the only people to become wealthier during the pandemic, the rest were mainly mates of cabinet ministers or party donors) meant that the government had to print more money, tax the wealthy or reduce the amount of money available to middle and lower class citizens, unfortunately the Tories took the latter option.

PS I am one of those who will benefit for the pension increase, though my NHS pension will almost certainly not rise by inflation but my tax charge will should the suggestion that tax thresholds will be frozen.

[Lancasterclaret]

“So what you’re saying is…”

Never change, Lancs, never change.

Why would I change?

You say something patently ridiculous and there isn't anything else to say

Its your problem this mate, not mine

[Nori1958]

That might say more about the sort of people you hang around with than anything else.

I’ve never met, or heard of anyone (who actually exists rather than a figment of the Daily Mail’s imagination) who didn’t want to work.

Really? Wow, what a sheltered life you must lead

[Rowls]

The fact that hospital treatments diminished to almost zero for 18 months during the 'official' pandemic and the loss of trained staff due to Brexit surely has nothing to do with the fact that the numbers of unhealthy people have risen.

There has been no drop in staffing in the NHS due to Brexit.

As somebody who was against the lockdown from the beginning and argued against the tide of opinion at the time (incurring a lot of insults and accusations at the time) I do feel that my position is being vindicated.

We're only barely 12 months since the lockdowns and the economic and health fallout from lockdown (not covid, but specifically lockdown) are already proving to be worse than the ill they were designed to cure.

[Rowls]

Why would I change?

You say something patently ridiculous and there isn't anything else to say

Its your problem this mate, not mine

The point is that I didn't say anything close to your bit of "so what you're saying is..." nonsense.

Thanks for playing today.

[dsr]

Government policies that led to the very rich getting richer (the top 5% were almost the only people to become wealthier during the pandemic, the rest were mainly mates of cabinet ministers or party donors) meant that the government had to print more money, tax the wealthy or reduce the amount of money available to middle and lower class citizens, unfortunately the Tories took the latter option.

I think most people whose job remained open got richer during the pandemic simply because they were on full pay but could not spend anything on holidays or socialising. Unless they found something else to spend it on, or they didn't spend anything on socialising/holidays pre-pandemic, they must have got richer.

[boatshed bill]

This is a very very fair point. However, it seems that for a not insignificant number, what was always supposed to be a safety net , has become a career choice.

There is also an economic strategy, didn't Thatcher work on the basis that 3 million unemployed suited our economy at the time?

[Spijed]

I'll bet none of those moaning about benefit claimants receiving a rise in line with inflation were complaining about the help they themselves received over the last two years.

[RMutt]

The point is that I didn't say anything close to your bit of "so what you're saying is..." nonsense.

Thanks for playing today.

I've seen you do this before. Make a statement that has a definite inference but leaves you enough wriggle room to deny said inference when challenged.

[1882Clarets1882]

There is also an economic strategy, didn't Thatcher work on the basis that 3 million unemployed suited our economy at the time?

Again, this is so so true. Having a large pool of the working population looking for work helped drive wages down. It was simple laws of supply and demand. However, it still doesn't change my opinion that for not an insignificant number, what was meant to be a safety net has become a career choice. Especially given current unemployment levels.

[boatshed bill]

Again, this is so so true. Having a large pool of the working population looking for work helped drive wages down. It was simple laws of supply and demand. However, it still doesn't change my opinion that for not an insignificant number, what was meant to be a safety net has become a career choice. Especially given current unemployment levels.

You are coming over a bit like Sir Keith Joseph with his "Hippies and Drifters" comments on career unemployment.

[Hipper]

The Sisyphian task of the welfare system is to keep this number as low as is possible. The fact that “long term sick” has swelled by 400,000 in the past year or so shows how quickly and easily these numbers can swell when they’re not being watched.

400,000?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... employment

According to this Long Term Covid figures have reached 2 million:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ay-studies

Now I don't know if those 2 million are off work, don't work for various reasons (retired, students, have other ailments etc.) or still work. I do know I have a friend with Long Term Covid who has been off work for four months but is still on his employer's sick pay scheme.

I should add that I never wanted to work, but I did anyway!

[1882Clarets1882]

You are coming over a bit like Sir Keith Joseph with his "Hippies and Drifters" comments on career unemployment.

OK. Not gonna get into a tit for tit . I'll reiterate my original point. Which is that we tax relatively low paid working people ( overall disproportionately compared to wealthier tax payers ) That tax goes to the government. The government then uses that revenue to then give it back to poorly paid workers in the form of in work benefits, effectively subsidising the poor wages paid by exploitative employers who've become reliant on cheap foreign labour. Crazy.

[warksclaret]

Really? Wow, what a sheltered life you must lead

Thanks Nori for that supportive comment-it took the words out of my mouth.Claret2018 will tell us next he has never met anyone who threw a "sicky ".People on this Board love to pre judge people. My own beliefs about certain people not wanting to work comes from my own work ethic. I know I have always possessed it and I owe it to my dad who was a Prisoner Of War , captured and brought to this country in 1941, with injuries and not a penny in his pocket.He remained in this country for another 42 years, when he died and was never unemployed, and never took a penny off the Government until his state pension arrived.It influenced me because at the age of 15 I took on two morning paper rounds, and was working in my school hols at a local canning factory, starting the paper rounds earlier so I could clock in at he factory for 8.00.I would go for every bit of overtime and often finished the day at 10.00pm. I may have been knackered next morning but got up with a smile on my face knowing I had my own money and did not need to sponge of my parents.It meant I could buy my own clothes at an early age, and go to University when I genuinely did not take a pound from my parents. In my 50 year career I rarely missed a day. Had I been out of work I would have done any job to put food on the table for my wife and kids. So Claret 2018 don't insult me by saying I have been influenced by the people I hang around with

[Rowls]

I've seen you do this before. Make a statement that has a definite inference but leaves you enough wriggle room to deny said inference when challenged.

So tell me what I've said which is so "outrageous".

Here's my post again to help you.

I’ve posted the figures above actually.

The thing with generalisations is that generally they’re very often true. Anyone who’s ever worked in the benefit system will tell you there is substantially but significant number of people determined to game the welfare system rather than work.

For some it a very conscious and deliberate choice. Many more fall into the trap in the same way others fall into a specific occupation - Through chance and happenstance and because it’s what those around them are doing.

The Sisyphian task of the welfare system is to keep this number as low as is possible. The fact that “long term sick” has swelled by 400,000 in the past year or so shows how quickly and easily these numbers can swell when they’re not being watched.

[Rowls]

400,000?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... employment

According to this Long Term Covid figures have reached 2 million:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ay-studies

Now I don't know if those 2 million are off work, don't work for various reasons (retired, students, have other ailments etc.) or still work. I do know I have a friend with Long Term Covid who has been off work for four months but is still on his employer's sick pay scheme.

I should add that I never wanted to work, but I did anyway!

You're comparing apples and oranges. I've said where the figures came from.

I got them from a Spectator article and the Spectator got them from the ONS.

[RMutt]

So tell me what I've said which is so "outrageous".

Here's my post again to help you.

I don't need to tell you, you know what you've done.
I've made one of those generalisations, I've seen enough of your posts to make a generalised view of your posting style. And as you pointed out generalisations are often true.

[Big Vinny K]

There has been no drop in staffing in the NHS due to Brexit.

What ?
You sure about that ?
I know for a fact that a number of Italian nurses who were working in our NHS have left since 2016.
Plus since 2016 far less nurses are deciding to join the NHS.
Put these 2 facts together and there has definitely been an impact on front line staffing in the NHS due to Brexit.

The stark reality of the shortages and the impact of this has been felt post COVID in particular but the exodus of nurses (and doctors) started 2016.

Never change Rowls
Never change

[evensteadiereddie]

Thanks Nori for that supportive comment-it took the words out of my mouth.Claret2018 will tell us next he has never met anyone who threw a "sicky ".People on this Board love to pre judge people. My own beliefs about certain people not wanting to work comes from my own work ethic. I know I have always possessed it and I owe it to my dad who was a Prisoner Of War , captured and brought to this country in 1941, with injuries and not a penny in his pocket.He remained in this country for another 42 years, when he died and was never unemployed, and never took a penny off the Government until his state pension arrived.It influenced me because at the age of 15 I took on two morning paper rounds, and was working in my school hols at a local canning factory, starting the paper rounds earlier so I could clock in at he factory for 8.00.I would go for every bit of overtime and often finished the day at 10.00pm. I may have been knackered next morning but got up with a smile on my face knowing I had my own money and did not need to sponge of my parents.It meant I could buy my own clothes at an early age, and go to University when I genuinely did not take a pound from my parents. In my 50 year career I rarely missed a day. Had I been out of work I would have done any job to put food on the table for my wife and kids. So Claret 2018 don't insult me by saying I have been influenced by the people I hang around with

Beyond parody.

[boatshed bill]

OK. Not gonna get into a tit for tit . I'll reiterate my original point. Which is that we tax relatively low paid working people ( overall disproportionately compared to wealthier tax payers ) That tax goes to the government. The government then uses that revenue to then give it back to poorly paid workers in the form of in work benefits, effectively subsidising the poor wages paid by exploitative employers who've become reliant on cheap foreign labour. Crazy.

And I totally agree with you.
i'm faIrly convinced that the harder we working class types work the richer the wealthy become.
Bonkers isn't it?

[claret2018]

Beyond parody.

Funny these people aren’t they. The type that think never having a day off sick is something to be proud of.

[Big Vinny K]

Thanks Nori for that supportive comment-it took the words out of my mouth.Claret2018 will tell us next he has never met anyone who threw a "sicky ".People on this Board love to pre judge people. My own beliefs about certain people not wanting to work comes from my own work ethic. I know I have always possessed it and I owe it to my dad who was a Prisoner Of War , captured and brought to this country in 1941, with injuries and not a penny in his pocket.He remained in this country for another 42 years, when he died and was never unemployed, and never took a penny off the Government until his state pension arrived.It influenced me because at the age of 15 I took on two morning paper rounds, and was working in my school hols at a local canning factory, starting the paper rounds earlier so I could clock in at he factory for 8.00.I would go for every bit of overtime and often finished the day at 10.00pm. I may have been knackered next morning but got up with a smile on my face knowing I had my own money and did not need to sponge of my parents.It meant I could buy my own clothes at an early age, and go to University when I genuinely did not take a pound from my parents. In my 50 year career I rarely missed a day. Had I been out of work I would have done any job to put food on the table for my wife and kids. So Claret 2018 don't insult me by saying I have been influenced by the people I hang around with

You do realise that you can :
- work hard all your life
- had people in your family who have tragically died
- had to struggle at points in your life
- etc etc

And still not making sweeping generalisations about the rest of society with little or no evidence to back this up ?

[fatboy47]

and I owe it to my dad who was a Prisoner Of War , captured and brought to this country in 1941, with injuries and not a penny in his pocket.He remained in this country for another 42 years, when he died and was never unemployed, and never took a penny off the Government until his state pension arrived.It influenced me because at the age of 15 I took on two morning paper rounds, and was working in my school hols at a local canning factory, starting the paper rounds earlier so I could clock in at he factory for 8.00.I would go for every bit of overtime and often finished the day at 10.00pm. I may have been knackered next morning but got up with a smile on my face knowing I had my own money and did not need to sponge of my parents.It meant I could buy my own clothes at an early age, and go to University when I genuinely did not take a pound from my parents. In my 50 year career I rarely missed a day. Had I been out of work I would have done any job to put food on the table for my wife and kids.

You were lucky!!
We lived in an old football sock under the culvert and ate only fag ends and discarded pie crusts.

[Lancasterclaret]

Thanks Nori for that supportive comment-it took the words out of my mouth.Claret2018 will tell us next he has never met anyone who threw a "sicky ".People on this Board love to pre judge people. My own beliefs about certain people not wanting to work comes from my own work ethic. I know I have always possessed it and I owe it to my dad who was a Prisoner Of War , captured and brought to this country in 1941, with injuries and not a penny in his pocket.He remained in this country for another 42 years, when he died and was never unemployed, and never took a penny off the Government until his state pension arrived.It influenced me because at the age of 15 I took on two morning paper rounds, and was working in my school hols at a local canning factory, starting the paper rounds earlier so I could clock in at he factory for 8.00.I would go for every bit of overtime and often finished the day at 10.00pm. I may have been knackered next morning but got up with a smile on my face knowing I had my own money and did not need to sponge of my parents.It meant I could buy my own clothes at an early age, and go to University when I genuinely did not take a pound from my parents. In my 50 year career I rarely missed a day. Had I been out of work I would have done any job to put food on the table for my wife and kids. So Claret 2018 don't insult me by saying I have been influenced by the people I hang around with

Ok Boomer

[evensteadiereddie]

You were lucky!!
We lived in an old football sock under the culvert and ate only fag ends and discarded pie crusts.

Good one, fatboy, I was sorely tempted....

[boatshed bill]

You were lucky!!
We lived in an old football sock under the culvert and ate only fag ends and discarded pie crusts.

There are no culverts on the Isles of Scilly, Fatboy, as well you know.
Beautiful place... if you can afford to live there

[Jakubclaret]

No I have no figures , and impossible to quantify. Its a fine line-I have met too many of them in my time, and more recently. Once you talk to them about the possibility of finding work, you don't need to be too bright to know there is no intention of working.There will always be an element of people sick, awaiting hospital treatment and with disabilities. Not including these. Be very surprised if you have never met anyone who does not want to work

It just goes to show all this nonsense about immigration & brexit that the mass immigration we had pre brexit was affecting unemployment since brexit & the levels falling. I’ve never known such a situation where jobs are so readily available & positions in demand makes a mockery of some peoples insistence that things wouldn’t change.

[Nori1958]

Funny these people aren’t they. The type that think never having a day off sick is something to be proud of.

And there are those, work shy ones, who will do anything they can to avoid work.
We are all different in life, it's how it is.

[Rowls]

I don't need to tell you, you know what you've done.
I've made one of those generalisations, I've seen enough of your posts to make a generalised view of your posting style. And as you pointed out generalisations are often true.

LOLzzzz

What ?
You sure about that ?
I know for a fact that a number of Italian nurses who were working in our NHS have left since 2016.
Plus since 2016 far less nurses are deciding to join the NHS.
Put these 2 facts together and there has definitely been an impact on front line staffing in the NHS due to Brexit.

The stark reality of the shortages and the impact of this has been felt post COVID in particular but the exodus of nurses (and doctors) started 2016.

Never change Rowls
Never change

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/don ... f-workers/

[Big Vinny K]

LOLzzzz



https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/don ... f-workers/

Another of Rowls common tactics.
Post an article that does not even mention the very sector that he alleges has not been impacted by Brexit.

Are you just a bit too busy to actually read what you post or is it some kind of deliberate strategy to make people think you know what you are talking about ?

[CoolClaret]

Funny these people aren’t they. The type that think never having a day off sick is something to be proud of.

These people are the worst and pretty much lie through their teeth.

The common cold, influenza and now friggin covid are just three things that will put someone in a a state of not being fit for work.

You either do the right thing of staying off work to not splutter all over your coworkers whilst being unproductive OR go in because of your own selfish nature, potentially pass on whatever you have but it’s all fine because you won’t lose any pay despite potentially costing the business more by infecting others that will have to take time off.

[Big Vinny K]

https://www.health.org.uk/chart/chart-l ... -in-the-uk

https://www.britishjournalofnursing.com ... in-the-uk/