Welsh International men & women's team to earn the same

[CardyTheClaret]

I think any question is allowed. My comment which you’ve quoted was in relation to this particular story which is summarised in the title of the thread, the poster I was replying to claimed that the Welsh FA’s decision was ‘MADNESS’.

As for would equal pay apply at club level too, that would be a decision for the individual club to make. In most cases, but probably not all, I would suggest that it shouldn’t apply as football clubs are commercially driven entities and the men’s team generates more revenue. Football clubs also pay their players differently according to a number of factors such as ability and commercial worth.

But the Welsh FA aren’t a football club, and this thread is about the Welsh FA. So I don’t see how your question about whether clubs should have equal pay for players is relevant to whether the Welsh FA should pay their male and female players equally.

It became relevant when you said earlier in thread ‘ Well, the simple justification for this is that they’re doing the same job, so deserve the same pay.’

So, to clarify, it only applies to international Football and your principals go out of the window once commerce becomes involved?

[Somethingfishy]

International football..albeit to a lesser/lower extent...still generates a commercial income.

If the Lionesses attract similar attendances to the men then of course there is a compelling argument for equal pay.

I really don't think this applies with the Welsh FA which is why the declaration of equal pay is just....well...not equality or rational. It's purely being done to be "seen" to be doing the right thing.

[dsr]

If the Lionesses attract similar attendances to the men then of course there is a compelling argument for equal pay.

Allowing for ticket prices, of course. England Women v Brazil are £15-£50, England Men v Ukraine are £30-£75, so the disparity isn't massive, but it's there. I have no idea about the TV income or the cost of Twix.

FA Cup Final tickets, on the other hand - £15-£30 for the women's final, £75 - £225 for the men's. Ouch.

[Rileybobs]

It became relevant when you said earlier in thread ‘ Well, the simple justification for this is that they’re doing the same job, so deserve the same pay.’

So, to clarify, it only applies to international Football and your principals go out of the window once commerce becomes involved?

No, of course I don’t think that equal pay rights should go out of the window once commerce becomes involved. I just think that men who represent their country at football should be paid equally to women who represent their country at football.

My reason is that they are all playing at the pinnacle of their sport and being paid by a national football association who’s goals aren’t financially driven.

There is an argument about skill level, but effectively the male and female games are different sports with the same rules. In many cases, such as England, the female team are more successful in their field than the men’s team.

[Somethingfishy]

This really shouldn't be an argument anyway. Why are professional footballers (male or female) being paid to represent their country in the first place? It should be an honour not another cashcow. Not as if they need the extra money. Certainly in the mens case.

Or is it just me?

[CardyTheClaret]

This really shouldn't be an argument anyway. Why are professional footballers (male or female) being paid to represent their country in the first place? It should be an honour not another cashcow. Not as if they need the extra money. Certainly in the mens case.

Or is it just me?

Don’t the men give all theirs to charity?

[Colburn_Claret]

Well, the simple justification for this is that they’re doing the same job, so deserve the same pay. And I wouldn’t call half of Welsh international footballers ‘the few’.

They aren't doing the same job though. They are playing the same sport in completely different environments.
I enjoyed the Lionesses success, as much as anybody. I also follow the Burnley women's team, because anything Claret and Blue. They all have their worth, and some time in the future, they may well merit equal pay. I hope they do, but it isn't today.
Using your argument non league footballers are doing the same job as Premier league players........there is a reason they get less money, because they generate less income. Giving this money to the Welsh women isn't justified, other than placating a few.

[claretandy]

If Women's football is so popular, then why don't Sky Sports have a Women's football channel and charge for it ? put your money where your woke idea's are.

[pushpinpussy]

This is not equality

[arise_sir_charge]

The biggest issue for women’s football at the highest level at the moment is that it’s not sustainable in its own right. The time will come when it is sustainable or at least it has to stand on its own two feet, but with that will come appropriate salaries and other rewards relative to the commercial success of the offering.

[gandhisflipflop]

The mens game should charge the same prices as the womens game does for tickets, you know, for equally and all that!

[Lancasterclaret]

*This is not equality*

Says a man

Can we stick to sensible arguments about this, rather than looking like a bunch of incel men?

Cheers!

[NottsClaret]

The biggest issue for women’s football at the highest level at the moment is that it’s not sustainable in its own right.

Who’s sustaining it at the moment? Salaries are about £30k a year in the top flight for women, not £60k a week.

Which is fine, it reflects the money the sport attracts but it doesn’t seem less sustainable than the men’s game, currently drowning in an ocean of debt or oil cash, needed to bail it out from one month to the next.

[Rileybobs]

They aren't doing the same job though. They are playing the same sport in completely different environments.
I enjoyed the Lionesses success, as much as anybody. I also follow the Burnley women's team, because anything Claret and Blue. They all have their worth, and some time in the future, they may well merit equal pay. I hope they do, but it isn't today.
Using your argument non league footballers are doing the same job as Premier league players........there is a reason they get less money, because they generate less income. Giving this money to the Welsh women isn't justified, other than placating a few.

The argument about non-league footballers isn't valid. I've already explained my position on this, by all means disagree with it but if you choose to ignore it and keep going back to comparisons with club football, which is completely different, then this is a pointless discussion.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The Welsh women are likely to qualify for more tournaments than their hapless male counterparts so perhaps they should earn more rather than the same.

[KRBFC]

The WSL is averaging 6k a game this season.

In comparison league 2 is averaging about 4.5k a game this season.

The lionesses winning the Euros has obviously helped create a surge of interest and it's a good thing.

The pay parity for Welsh International footballers is a good thing, I'd expect the English FA to follow suit, especially as the lionesses have actually won something recently....

I thought the English mens sides donated their pay to charity, although I'm not sure how much they're paid to represent England. This is a charitable act from the Wales mens side.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Do you think it should come in at club level too?

When the attendances/ticket prices are comparable then yes.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I thought the English mens sides donated their pay to charity, although I'm not sure how much they're paid to represent England. This is a charitable act from the Wales mens side.

Yes the English men's team do tend to donate to charity, because they don't really need money.

Charitable by the Welsh men's team isn't really the same thing

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The biggest issue for women’s football at the highest level at the moment is that it’s not sustainable in its own right. The time will come when it is sustainable or at least it has to stand on its own two feet, but with that will come appropriate salaries and other rewards relative to the commercial success of the offering.

The combined net debt of English Premier League clubs in 2021 was £4 billion.
Tell me more about sustainable football...

[Lancasterclaret]

I think what everyone is missing is the spectacular growth in interest in the womens game

This might be too early a move, but its certainly something that might well come into being sooner than you think

[tiger76]

The women’s game is growing - not sure why you guys can’t get your head around this

It is growing, and the Lionesses success can only help the women's game develop, Yes presently tickets are relatively cheap, certainly compared to the men's prices, however I suspect if interest continues to increase in the coming years then prices will gradually rise as will earnings particularly at WSL level.

[Big Vinny K]

£4b you say.
That’s less than the likely purchase price of just one of the clubs in Man United !!

In all seriousness football finances and debt has gone crazy. In normal business terms it looks like an industry that is on the precipice of going bust. But football has never been “normal”. For example how much of that £4b debt is down to billionaire owners pumping bottomless pits of cash in ? These guys will only ever be repaid when they decide to sell the club. A few years ago you would think for some owners that would mean they could never be repaid but now look at some of the astronomical valuations of the clubs being sold !!

Back to the OP though i don’t see this as anything but a positive move forward for the women’s game - albeit it’s a lot easier to make this change given the relatively small amount of money involved

[BurnleyFC]

Most men’s teams in the Welsh leagues are semi pro so probably yeah.

I was talking specifically about the international teams.

I would hazard a guess that Rob Page earns considerably more than his female counterpart.

[bobinho]

If they really cared about this so much - I mean REALLY cared, then their footballers at ALL levels would be paid the same.

[AlargeClaret]

Don’t really see an issue here , most “ home nations “ international footballers are multi millionaires and donate their match fees to charity anyway . If say GB Olympic athletes received a stipend it would of course be equal men / women . The correct decision IMO.

Though let’s not distract from womens league football being little more than a parlour game, and the money the bbc chuck at it , is embarrassing as it is disproportionate.

[KRBFC]

The combined net debt of English Premier League clubs in 2021 was £4 billion.
Tell me more about sustainable football...

You're right but there will always be willing buyers out there for PL clubs.

[SalisburyClaret]

The popularity of Women’s football is mainly down to the BBC having the rights to show it and therefore giving it blanket coverage which in turn gets picked up by other media. Otherwise it would have similar popularity to hockey or netball.

[claret2018]

The usual suspects getting wound up about something that benefits others, and makes absolutely no difference to their own lives.

Who’d have thought.

[RMutt]

There is a difference between being "seen" to do the right thing and actually doing the rational common sense thing.

Just an example. Male solicitor/Female solicitor - equally capable of representing their clients/dealing with workloads yet male solicitors are likely to be paid more than their female counterparts. This is clearly wrong and it is the same across many professions. The gender inequality in pay where a female is equally capable as a male. It needs sorting and strides are being made..albeit slowly to change this.

However when it comes to a physical sport such as football. This really can't be applied. Men and women do not compete in the same sphere at the same level. Men generate a vastly bigger amount financially into the game. In a situation like this they need to be treated as separate entities and be rewarded depending on how much they generate.
Womens football is growing at a rapid rate (and about time)but it is light years behind the mens game in a financial sense. It stands to reason that at a club level equal pay just can't happen. Not for the forseeable anyway.Now surely the Welsh FA generates most of its money from the mens team. I'm not 100% but I don't think the womens team fill the Cardiff stadium.
The Lionesses have recently filled Wembley..and if they continue to do so then there would be a good case for equal pay based on the money they generate.
Lets not pretend that the Welsh FA and the mens team are doing this out of equality. It is not wrong to say they just aren't equal in standard or more importantly in revenue. They are doing it to be "seen" to be doing the right thing and this is why they are being called out on it.
As in a lot of what is happening in this "Culture War". The PC side of it are that desperate for equality they are creating more inequality....and the really sad thing is they are completely blind to it.

Your first point might be relevant if women played against men, but they play against other women so strength etc. doesn’t come into the argument.
I get the second bit because football,as part of the entertainment industry, is about balancing pay against income generated, a bit like film stars and so on. Football obviously gets this wrong sometimes but so does the film industry I suppose. Actual footfall in the stadiums I’m not sure about because so much income comes from advertising and broadcasting rights.
The last bit I don’t agree with at all. The Welsh FA can do this because they are more than just a commercial entity or at least don’t have to make commercial decisions in the way football league clubs do.
Good on the Welsh FA and Welsh players I say.

[1882Clarets1882]

League 2 players to be paid the same as Premier League for doing "the same job". What could possibly go wrong!?

[basil6345789]

No comparison - silly decision financially

[Vincent'sCap]

Women's football is fantastic,apart from the keeper's some of them are even worse than Muric

[Somethingfishy]

*This is not equality*

Says a man

Can we stick to sensible arguments about this, rather than looking like a bunch of incel men?

Cheers!

Oh ok then...so a man can't say it's not equality but a woman can?
Where is the equality in that?

[Lancasterclaret]

Oh ok then...so a man can't say it's not equality but a woman can?
Where is the equality in that?

Thing is, and this is the depressing bit, a fair number of posters on here would use that argument without the smiley!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

League 2 players to be paid the same as Premier League for doing "the same job". What could possibly go wrong!?

Bizarre comparison but not unexpected from you

[Falcon]

Weird how many old blokes care so much about this.

I think it's a great gesture. The chaps already get plenty of dosh at their clubs so won't miss it, and the girls get a nice supplement.

I fail to see how the differences in physical attributes / footballing skill have any relevance other than in forming the incoherent ramblings of someone upset that the world is moving on without them.

[Big Vinny K]

The popularity of Women’s football is mainly down to the BBC having the rights to show it and therefore giving it blanket coverage which in turn gets picked up by other media. Otherwise it would have similar popularity to hockey or netball.

How do you work that one out ?

Football across the world (other than the rare exception) is more popular than netball or hockey irrespective of TV coverage or not and across both the mens and womens game.
Do you not think that this is the reason TV are increasing their coverage ? Or do you think that they just picked womens football out of a hat as the one to start covering ?

[SalisburyClaret]

How do you work that one out ?

Football across the world (other than the rare exception) is more popular than netball or hockey irrespective of TV coverage or not and across both the mens and womens game.
Do you not think that this is the reason TV are increasing their coverage ? Or do you think that they just picked womens football out of a hat as the one to start covering ?

It’s obvious why they chose Women’s Football - the BBC can’t compete financially with other broadcasters and this was a comparatively dirt cheap way of associating with major brands, filling in hours of airtime and reaching loads of kids.

[redcloud203]

well done the Welsh FA

[TheFamilyCat]

I'm going to boo Connor Roberts vociferously tomorrow night. Traitor to men.

[timshorts]

Can't see this ever happening in club football so no worries there.

Lewes have been doing this for about 3 years - and it was posted on here previously.

[Spiral]

Some of you would make shite administrators, I tell you that. Your scope isn't wide enough and you'd run any large organisation you're put in charge of into the ground with such small mindedness.

What is the economic function of an appearance fee? Players are paid per appearance which differs based on a playing appearance or a bench appearance, and I believe there's also an additional fee paid to the squad during tournaments. This is not as such a wage that reflects the performance level to which the job is done, but rather an appearance fee that makes a call-up economically viable for the player. There are romantic notions of the pride in representing one's country, and this is the force that drives the desire and demand to see international football happen, but it needs to be economically viable to happen at all. An appearance fee is not so much a capital input made by a capitalist done with the intention of producing an economic output, but rather about providing a level of remuneration to incentivise the selected player to accept the call-up. Of course, this seems meaningless if the scope of your imagination is limited to the men's football you watch, such as in the case of England and Wales, but there are smaller countries where even the best players work full time jobs, and by considering the function of an appearance fee through the lens of those countries the principle becomes evident: the principle of appearance fees is to enable the selected players to commit their time to representing their country.

This is something altogether different from club wages. What is the function of a wage? It is a capital input. Welsh players, English players, any player of any nationality can't up and represent another nation when a better contract offer comes along, notwithstanding the technicalities around representation criteria that might allow an uncapped player to choose who to represent among their particular individual options. International football by its nature is not economically competitive as such, it is not structured as a marketplace, it is sport in a very pure sense not necessarily beholden to market forces. Club football, existing within the unique structure of a sports league, has a ruthlessly competitive economic model baked into its very foundation. It's a quasi-free-market, regulated, but clubs are beholden to market forces, where players CAN up and represent other clubs and negotiate contracts. This is the reason for the division between club and international football, and any argument against equalising the appearance fees of men and women made by comparing the two models, club football and international football, without recognising the factors that make them both distinct in practical terms is thoughtless and ridiculous.

Football Associations do not make choices based on economic imperatives in the way football clubs do. Associations are beholden to market forces in a much reduced way (limited to competing for managers, sponsorship etc); they do not compete for players, and with this in mind there needs to be a distinction between a wage and an appearance fee. Each serves a different function to two very different and distinct (though superficially similar) entities operating in two very different and distinct economic environments. From this vantage point, it becomes clear that any disparity between the men's game and the women's game is not a consequence of economic forces, but of political will, and in modern times, aspiring to stamp out inequalities which are unjust in a very bare-faced way and which arose based on economic notions that are confused and flatly ridiculous to sustain in modern times, it makes sense that Football Associations which, remember, as single organisations govern the game for both men and women, take action to redress imbalances which were set in times when women's participation in football was an afterthought. If an association is serious in its belief that football is a sport that belongs to women every bit as much it does men, it needs to lead by example and institute policies which remove inequalities whose existence contradicts the professed commitment to equality.

[Stayingup]

Well, the simple justification for this is that they’re doing the same job, so deserve the same pay. And I wouldn’t call half of Welsh international footballers ‘the few’.

The few? Yes its aways the few. They make the loudest noise.

[1882Clarets1882]

Bizarre comparison but not unexpected from you

Really !? Why!? Given that several posters have used the "doing the same" arguement to show their support for equalising pay. I've simply taken it and applied it to league 2 and the Premier league. Not a "bizarre comparison" by any stretch but, coming from you, to claim it is, isn't unexpected.

[dsr]

Lewes have been doing this for about 3 years - and it was posted on here previously.

I take it that any jokes about the Lewes Women and their opponents last night, would be a little out of place?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Really !? Why!? Given that several posters have used the "doing the same" arguement to show their support for equalising pay. I've simply taken it and applied it to league 2 and the Premier league. Not a "bizarre comparison" by any stretch but, coming from you, to claim it is, isn't unexpected.

The wsl is pulling in crowds similar to league 2, so it would make sense for them to be earning similar money as that league.

It doesn't make sense for league 2 players to earn PL money, you already know that but you decided to say they should because you don't want women's football to carry on growing and getting attention, probably because.....well we all know why

[dsr]

The wsl is pulling in crowds similar to league 2, so it would make sense for them to be earning similar money as that league.

It doesn't make sense for league 2 players to earn PL money, you already know that but you decided to say they should because you don't want women's football to carry on growing and getting attention, probably because.....well we all know why

They're doing it on half or less admission price, though. But perhaps their TV money is higher?

[1882Clarets1882]

The wsl is pulling in crowds similar to league 2, so it would make sense for them to be earning similar money as that league.

It doesn't make sense for league 2 players to earn PL money, you already know that but you decided to say they should because you don't want women's football to carry on growing and getting attention, probably because.....well we all know why

I have to say some Derrin Brown levels of mind reading right there !! Lol

The reason I said league 2 players should be paid the same as Premier league players was ( instead of what youve chosen to imagine) that I was simply using the "They're doing the same job" argument that had been used to support equal pay in Welsh football. Nothing more complicated than that.

If you cannot manage to get your head around that simple concept , instead of making up paranoid nonsense about why I said it, then that's your problem not mine and there's very little I can do about that and there's nothing more to be said about it. Thank you.

[1882Clarets1882]

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[Spiral]

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