Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[summitclaret]

FI agreement is about fishing. That is one of many temp. bi-lateral ones needed now in case of no deal. The EU won't allow us to sign the proper trade deals until we leave.

[martin_p]

FI agreement is about fishing. That is one of many temp. bi-lateral ones needed now in case of no deal. The EU won't allow us to sign the proper trade deals until we leave.

Glad we're getting the fishing sorted out, it's the backbone of our economy.

[summitclaret]

Fox is working on it all as would be expected.

[AlargeClaret]

We have a winner!...........I'm willing to bet money, she doesn't give a toss what you think of her 'fanny'!

It simply goes to show how out of touch with the populace the extreme remainers are . In a recent poll ( conducted by myself and 3 other men) an overwhelming majority ( 3 to 1) preferred the shaven or trimmed look as opposed to the luxiourious thatched cottage of yesteryear .

[Lancasterclaret]

No votes for "any holes a goal" then?

[aggi]

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[Lancasterclaret]

He's also left the door ajar though for the UK if we can come up with some "workable proposals"

But I can't see the Brexiteers concentrating on that bit somehow!

[Colburn_Claret]

To take the last point first, the mess that Greece got into was a direct and entirely predictable consequence of the Euro, but to suggest that was the plan is stretching the point somewhat. In fact, it is the lack of effective political and fiscal integration that Is the Euro’s fundamental weakness. You might argue that the EU will inevitably address this, I would say they haven’t in the 20 years of the currency’s existence, even post the crisis, and if they did, it need not involve us, as we are not part of it.

As for the 50-odd EU laws that we’ve voted against, I’ve no more idea than you what they were, which maybe suggests they weren’t particularly important. Where there are major points of principle, there are many examples of where the UK has made a stand or negotiated an opt out (the Euro, Shengen) even when I wished we were bound by EU consensus (Iraq invasion). The idea that we “aren’t allowed an opinion” is just plain wrong. Whatever makes you think that the 2nd/3rd biggest economy in the block doesn’t have a say?

Whether the “federalist dream” is real or imagined (and I think it is mainly the latter) we have plenty enough sovereignty not to be part of it, without surrendering the obvious advantages of being part of the biggest free trade block in the world.

If you get a loan from a bank, they want to know what you plan to do with the money, if they didn't it would be reckless. When Greece got the Euro they took massive loans from Brussels, but they didntvask them what they were planning to do with it, just gave them it anyway. You have to ask yourself why. Why would a body be willing to allow another body waste all that money. The only realistic answer, is because when they called in the debt, they owned them. I don't disagree that Greece wasted the money, but they should never have been allowed to. Spain and Ireland did the same to a lesser extent, wasting millions on houses and new towns that nobody wanted to live in. The money they wasted was ours, or a large part of it, yet we got to see nothing of it it was Brussels that reaped the benefit.

[RingoMcCartney]

Nope Wrongo, bad Brexit things are happening now! It's already raining you fool!

And you're claiming it's evidence of global warming you "evidence" lacking, and just opinion based on short term ism and conjecture, owning fool!

[martin_p]

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/statu ... 2293266435

Capture.JPG

More importantly he reiterated that the withdrawal agreement is not up for negotiation and no time limit on the backstop.

[Colburn_Claret]

That's exactly how democracy works. If the majority votes for something it's "imposed" on everyone, including those that voted against it.

The problem there is we are just a small part of Europe, and as the referendum showed we don't want to walk down the same path as the rest of Europe. We will always be losing these votes, we will always be getting dragged deeper into something we are against. That isn't democracy, that's foolishness. It makes far more sense, if you don't agree with the direction your being taken to leave. Yet when we do that the minority decide that they don't like democracy.........Not unless it suits them

[summitclaret]

The UK has not agreed anything until the HOC does.

It is totally unreasonable to expect the UK to be trapped without a way out.

It is unacceptable to Ireland and the UK to have a hard border in Ireland.

Both the EU and the UK want a deal


Guess what a free trade deal would address all 4 of the above. So get on with it. If necessary extend A50 to sort it.

[Lancasterclaret]

If necessary extend A50 to sort it.

This is something that we can all agree with but its not without risks.

[Tall Paul]

If you get a loan from a bank, they want to know what you plan to do with the money, if they didn't it would be reckless. When Greece got the Euro they took massive loans from Brussels, but they didntvask them what they were planning to do with it, just gave them it anyway. You have to ask yourself why. Why would a body be willing to allow another body waste all that money. The only realistic answer, is because when they called in the debt, they owned them. I don't disagree that Greece wasted the money, but they should never have been allowed to. Spain and Ireland did the same to a lesser extent, wasting millions on houses and new towns that nobody wanted to live in. The money they wasted was ours, or a large part of it, yet we got to see nothing of it it was Brussels that reaped the benefit.

If the EU attached conditions on how to spend the loan you'd no doubt be complaining about them being controlling and taking away Greece's sovreignty.

[Colburn_Claret]

Perhaps you can provide some actual examples. I’m sure there are loads given you’re happy to gamble your kids’ future prosperity on getting out of this oh so oppressive system where we have no say in anything (apart from our votes and our veto).

As an aside “something I voted against, but is being imposed on me anyway” sounds awfully familiar to me at the moment for some reason. Perhaps you need Ringo to point out that democracy (which the EU certainly is) means not always getting your own way.

Anyway, tangible concrete examples of what the nasty EU has imposed on us please.

If democracy means not always getting your own way, then why are remainers having a hissy fit at the prospect of leaving the EU, when that's what the majority voted for.

You keep asserting that Brussels is a democracy, so why can't you accept democracy in this country.

[martin_p]

And you're claiming it's evidence of global warming you "evidence" lacking, and just opinion based on short term ism and conjecture, owning fool!

OK, I'll turn it round. Why do you think these companies are triggering their Brexit emergency plans and relocating operations abroad if it's not because of Brexit?

[TVC15]

And you're claiming it's evidence of global warming you "evidence" lacking, and just opinion based on short term ism and conjecture, owning fool!

Are you saying that there has been no financial impact or loss of jobs in the UK which employers have put down to the uncertainty or anticipation of Brexit ?

A very simple yes or no will do

[Lancasterclaret]

Not many tangible concrete examples of what the nasty EU has imposed on us there Colburn.

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

[summitclaret]

This is something that we can all agree with but its not without risks.

2 years' max and we leave with a managed no deal if we can't agree a deal.

[Lancasterclaret]

Thats not enough time to be honest, but its certainly more than I'd expect Brexiteers to agree to.

Two years is a decent start

[martin_p]

The UK has not agreed anything until the HOC does.

It is totally unreasonable to expect the UK to be trapped without a way out.

It is unacceptable to Ireland and the UK to have a hard border in Ireland.

Both the EU and the UK want a deal


Guess what a free trade deal would address all 4 of the above. So get on with it. If necessary extend A50 to sort it.

No, a free trade deal still needs customes checks at a border, and that's the problem. Free trade just removes tarriffs, quotas, etc, but not customs. That's why we need to be in a Customs Union.

[martin_p]

2 years' max and we leave with a managed no deal if we can't agree a deal.

I'll ask what I asked someone else who suggested this. How does that avoid a hard border in Ireland?

[Colburn_Claret]

Not many tangible concrete examples of what the nasty EU has imposed on us there Colburn.

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

Others have already mentioned the 77 times our veto has been a waste of time.
Why are you trying to impose on us remaining, when the majority voted leave.
You're just a mini version of Brussels that can't accept no for an answer.
You deny our claims that Brussels is undemocratic, whilst acting undemocratic. Oh the irony.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'll answer that one Martin.

He's saying that we postpone Article 50 for two years, so nothing changes.

Its a sensible idea (as long as we use those two years to plan for the future)

[Lancasterclaret]

But you haven't.

Care to tell me which ones that have personally stopped you doing anything?

Its not hard a question is it?

[martin_p]

Others have already mentioned the 77 times our veto has been a waste of time.
Why are you trying to impose on us remaining, when the majority voted leave.
You're just a mini version of Brussels that can't accept no for an answer.
You deny our claims that Brussels is undemocratic, whilst acting undemocratic. Oh the irony.

No one isn't accepting the referendum result, it's there it's a fact. What people are legitamtely saying is that the last two years is such a shambles, leading to what looks like an inevitable 'no deal', that if the politicians can't decide on what deal is best for us maybe it's time to ask the public again. Maybe, with two more years experience of what a shambles UK politics is, the appetite for leaving will have been dimmed. Maybe it won''t and people are happy to leave either with no deal or the current WA. Surely it's worth finding out?

[claretonthecoast1882]

If you took this thread to explain the issues around brexit for the people in this country it is hard to see why there has been so little progress.

2 sides unable to speak or listen to each other just resorting to calling each other side names or telling them how thick they are. In other words pretty much like the build up to the vote.

That worked out well for both sides.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

No one isn't accepting the referendum result, it's there it's a fact. What people are legitamtely saying is that the last two years is such a shambles, leading to what looks like an inevitable 'no deal', that if the politicians can't decide on what deal is best for us maybe it's time to ask the public again. Maybe, with two more years experience of what a shambles UK politics is, the appetite for leaving will have been dimmed. Maybe it won''t and people are happy to leave either with no deal or the current WA. Surely it's worth finding out?

No one isn't accepting the result?
Are you really sure about that?
Continued demands for another vote, or a "People's vote" as it's more commonly called now, since the result was announced.
Yeah, no one isn't accepting it...

[martin_p]

I'll answer that one Martin.

He's saying that we postpone Article 50 for two years, so nothing changes.

Its a sensible idea (as long as we use those two years to plan for the future)

It doesn't change for two years, but then we leave with no deal and a hard border if nothing is sorted. The only way anything is likely to be sorted in those two years is with significantly different ideas on the U.K side which would probably need a change of government.

[Jakubclaret]

No one isn't accepting the referendum result, it's there it's a fact. What people are legitamtely saying is that the last two years is such a shambles, leading to what looks like an inevitable 'no deal', that if the politicians can't decide on what deal is best for us maybe it's time to ask the public again. Maybe, with two more years experience of what a shambles UK politics is, the appetite for leaving will have been dimmed. Maybe it won''t and people are happy to leave either with no deal or the current WA. Surely it's worth finding out?

Why is it a shambles? It's normal course during any relationship breakup for teething problems to be apparent, I think personally you & you've got company on here are making dramas when it really isn't necessary. Everything will sort itself out patience & a composed mindset is required.

[Lancasterclaret]

We've 50 days left Jakub.

I admire your sangfroid but we don't have time left to agree a deal.

[martin_p]

Why is it a shambles? It's normal course during any relationship breakup for teething problems to be apparent, I think personally you & you've got company on here are making dramas when it really isn't necessary. Everything will sort itself out patience & a composed mindset is required.

Just two weeks until the export impact starts, companies relocating abroad, bank transferring assets abroad. Meanwhile a PM who thinks saying 'pretty please' will change the EUs stance on the backstop and a parliament that won't accept her agreement while it's still there. As I said before, it's happening now!

[Lord Beamish]

Why is it a shambles? It's normal course during any relationship breakup for teething problems to be apparent, I think personally you & you've got company on here are making dramas when it really isn't necessary. Everything will sort itself out patience & a composed mindset is required.

[Colburn_Claret]

No one isn't accepting the referendum result, it's there it's a fact. What people are legitamtely saying is that the last two years is such a shambles, leading to what looks like an inevitable 'no deal', that if the politicians can't decide on what deal is best for us maybe it's time to ask the public again. Maybe, with two more years experience of what a shambles UK politics is, the appetite for leaving will have been dimmed. Maybe it won''t and people are happy to leave either with no deal or the current WA. Surely it's worth finding out?

If you think that people aren't accepting the referendum result, then you haven't been reading the 1000s of messages on this board. I completely agree that the last years have been a wasted shambles, but that isn't a reason to revisit the referendum, just a reason to change the people who were in charge of negotiations and the preparations for leaving.
Two wrongs never make a right.

[Jakubclaret]

We've 50 days left Jakub.

I admire your sangfroid but we don't have time left to agree a deal.

Don't be daft & melodramatic, plenty of time left just nobody wants to concede too early, the EU love people like you who panic & over exaggerate. It makes sense for everybody to agree a deal, please can you show some optimism that will happen. You are starting to depress people & I'm not sure you are aware of that.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm sorry for depressing you mate, but we don't have the parliamentary time to pass through all the stuff for a deal.

I thought you were one of the "everything will be fine whatever happens"?

[Lord Beamish]

Don't be daft & melodramatic, plenty of time left just nobody wants to concede too early, the EU love people like you who panic & over exaggerate. It makes sense for everybody to agree a deal, please can you show some optimism that will happen. You are starting to depress people & I'm not sure you are aware of that.

[summitclaret]

It doesn't change for two years, but then we leave with no deal and a hard border if nothing is sorted. The only way anything is likely to be sorted in those two years is with significantly different ideas on the U.K side which would probably need a change of government.

The difference this time would be that we make it quite clear rhat this time we are actually leaving if there is no deal. We won't get one that we like until the EU believe we will leave.

[dsr]

It has been shown on here time and again that the EU is a democratic organisation (28 individual democracies do not make a dictatorship), and the areas in which the EU has overgrown being merely a trading bloc (joined up policing - which many leavers insist we could still have, for example), and while we are the ones leaving you are still banging on about them being unfair because they stick to their core principles?

Brexiters are thrashing around in their own death throes, and brexit is a zombie to be consigned to the grave by a second referendum. Yes we're close to a no deal, but our MPs won't allow that to happen. The only MPs who want a no deal are those who would benefit from the chaos it would bring. The majority of MPs won't have it. Even if Labour were elected, they would only negotiate a deal in which Britain remains within the customs union, and then put it to another referendum (which they'd probably campaign against - because it would never be as good as what we have already).

So shout out as much as you like, but your side has lost, and it just comes down to detail now.

I think I have found someone who isn't accepting the vote.

[martin_p]

The difference this time would be that we make it quite clear rhat this time we are actually leaving if there is no deal. We won't get one that we like until the EU believe we will leave.

Creating the hard border in Ireland. The EU are never going to agree to anything that has the stated intention that that will ahppen after a set period of time. What you're suggesting isn't really any different to time limiting the backstop.

[martin_p]

I think I have found someone who isn't accepting the vote.

Well if you read the post he's actually advocating a second referendum. The language may be more inflammatory, but it's exactly the same point I'm making.

[scouseclaret]

If you get a loan from a bank, they want to know what you plan to do with the money, if they didn't it would be reckless. When Greece got the Euro they took massive loans from Brussels, but they didntvask them what they were planning to do with it, just gave them it anyway. You have to ask yourself why. Why would a body be willing to allow another body waste all that money. The only realistic answer, is because when they called in the debt, they owned them. I don't disagree that Greece wasted the money, but they should never have been allowed to. Spain and Ireland did the same to a lesser extent, wasting millions on houses and new towns that nobody wanted to live in. The money they wasted was ours, or a large part of it, yet we got to see nothing of it it was Brussels that reaped the benefit.

The Euro crisis was the result of a credit bubble stoked up by low Euro interest rates that were suitable for the mature economies of Germany and Francethatvwere recovering from the early 2000s recession, but wholly unsuitable for the booming economies on the periphery - Greece, Spain, Ireland as you say. But that’s alll history- I only mentioned it as one of many examples of when the EU has tried to coerce the UK into doing something it didn’t want to do, and Britain exercised its authority.

What really interests me is the fact that this “lost sovereignty” issue has become such an accepted meme that people never seem to stop and question it, mainly because it’s been rammed down our throats by eurosceptic politicians and the tabloid press for 30 years or more. Why do people believe we “have no say” in what gets decided? It’s just not true.

Where is the evidence?

[Lancasterclaret]

You have to remember that Colburn "makes up his own mind"

The fact that its exactly what has been pedalled to everyone for decades by the media and politicians is just an unfortunate coincidence.

[RingoMcCartney]

OK, I'll turn it round. Why do you think these companies are triggering their Brexit emergency plans and relocating operations abroad if it's not because of Brexit?

They're business contingency plans that may prove to be short term. Are you saying whatever is done today is totally irreversible?

Either way you have no "evidence" that brexit will have a negative on the uk economy.

Just like me, you only have an opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[nil_desperandum]

Others have already mentioned the 77 times our veto has been a waste of time.
.

No they haven't / it hasn't - our veto is an absolute veto, and we can apply it to any of the key areas to which it is applicable. [i.e. major changes that would affect us]. (That's why (e.g) we didn't join the Euro, why we didn't bail out the Greeks, why we can't lose our rebate,and why we could stop the EU army that some people are so obsessed with.)
The 77, (if that's the exact number) is simply the number of times we've lost any vote in the EU in the past 20 years. I can't find the updated link I wanted, but this goes some way to explaining it.

What we do know, though, from official EU voting records is that the British government has voted ‘No’ to EU proposals on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ to legislative proposals 2,466 times since 1999. In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%. Just pointing out how many times the UK government ‘lost’ is hence a misleading picture of what has happened.

Moreover, even saying the UK “lost” on these 56 occasions is misleading. First, EU legislation passes through several ‘readings’ in the Council and the European Parliament, so the fact that the UK voted ‘No’ in one of the readings does not mean that the legislation was not subsequently amended enough for the UK to support it.

Second, the records from the Council only relate to votes on legislative proposals that eventually became law. So we simply do not know how often the UK successfully opposed proposals, as these are not mentioned in the official figures.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/facts-behind-the-c ... in-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

Are you saying that there has been no financial impact or loss of jobs in the UK which employers have put down to the uncertainty or anticipation of Brexit ?

A very simple yes or no will do

No.

[Burnley Ace]

I did say evidence not based on opinions, assumptions, projections, scenarios given varying criteria, predictions, assumptions and forecasts.

1 Less free trade with the EU - assumption, prediction
2. Reduction in investment from EU businesses - assumption, prediction
3. No free movement of Labour - opinion that it's negative. My opinion it's positive.
4. Fall in the value of the £ - prediction, assumption. Could be positive
5. Rise in cost-push inflation prediction assumption
6. Still needing, if wanting to trade with EU, their standards without any input into what they are - only your opinion it's negative. We trade with other countries and meet their standards
7. No access to Social Cohesion Fund - our money coming back
8. No access to Erasmus - opinion that's negative. Alternatives won't be available?
9. No access to EAW - assumption that security will no longer work together. Ridiculous.
10. No access to Galileo - opinion that's negative
11. No access to EU scientific research grants - our money coming back
12. No access to EU arts funding - our money coming back

So no evidence what's so ever. Just your opinion based on assumptions, projections, scenarios given varying criteria, predictions, assumptions and forecasts.

Epic fail!

And finally

For about the fifth time. I HAVE NO EVIDENCE.

JUST AN OPINION. JUST LIKE YOU.

1. It is a FACT that atm there will be no free trade agreement between the U.K. and EU. Can you provide a link to the proposed agreement?

2. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; of payments/articles/ukforeigndirectinvestmentsandanalysis/January2018

Shows that whilst the U.K. is still the highest recipient of FDI the amount coming from EU countries has fallen in comparison to peak years.

3. Until you define negative the facts seem to point to EU migrants having a positive impact on taxation £1.34 in for every £1 out). Losing free movement places a restriction on my ability to move jobs in Europe. (atm)

4. Since the vote to leave the £ has fallen against the dollar and the Euro. On the day after the vote it fell 8% against the $ - are you going to pretend that’s a coincidence?

5. https://www.ft.com/content/cf51e840-714 ... f383b09ff9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

6. You accept that at the moment we have input into EU standards but after Brexit we will have to accept their standards - how is that not placing us in a less advantageous position?

7. It’s a fact we won’t have access to that specific fund you hope that a similar fund will be set up

8. Who sees Erasmus as being a negative???

9. ATM we have no agreement on data sharing for security there is no legal mechanism that allows for it, again you are hoping that an agreement can be reached.

10. We will have spent £2 billion, gained spin off advantages, scientific and engineering progress and now won’t have full access- how is that not a negative?

11 and 12 - you accept we won’t have access to those funds and all you can counter with is “our money coming back” - to be spent on similar projects? I thought it was all going to the NHS?

Have you any evidence that the lost funding will be matched post Brexit?

[dsr]

Well if you read the post he's actually advocating a second referendum. The language may be more inflammatory, but it's exactly the same point I'm making.

If he wants a second referendum, then he doesn't accept the result of the first one.

[martin_p]

They're business contingency plans that may prove to be short term. Are you saying whatever is done today is totally irreversible?

Either way you have no "evidence" that brexit will have a negative on the uk economy.

Just like me, you only have an opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You're in danger of falling into your own trap. I'm giving you actual facts of things that have actually happened because of Brexit. But you dismiss them because you hold an opinion that they might be short term. Where's your evidence? Offices are being moved, jobs relocated, no more tax from those jobs for HMRC. It's costing us money now.

[RingoMcCartney]

1. It is a FACT that atm there will be no free trade agreement between the U.K. and EU. Can you provide a link to the proposed agreement?

2. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; of payments/articles/ukforeigndirectinvestmentsandanalysis/January2018

Shows that whilst the U.K. is still the highest recipient of FDI the amount coming from EU countries has fallen in comparison to peak years.

3. Until you define negative the facts seem to point to EU migrants having a positive impact on taxation £1.34 in for every £1 out). Losing free movement places a restriction on my ability to move jobs in Europe. (atm)

4. Since the vote to leave the £ has fallen against the dollar and the Euro. On the day after the vote it fell 8% against the $ - are you going to pretend that’s a coincidence?

5. https://www.ft.com/content/cf51e840-714 ... f383b09ff9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

6. You accept that at the moment we have input into EU standards but after Brexit we will have to accept their standards - how is that not placing us in a less advantageous position?

7. It’s a fact we won’t have access to that specific fund you hope that a similar fund will be set up

8. Who sees Erasmus as being a negative???

9. ATM we have no agreement on data sharing for security there is no legal mechanism that allows for it, again you are hoping that an agreement can be reached.

10. We will have spent £2 billion, gained spin off advantages, scientific and engineering progress and now won’t have full access- how is that not a negative?

11 and 12 - you accept we won’t have access to those funds and all you can counter with is “our money coming back” - to be spent on similar projects? I thought it was all going to the NHS?

Have you any evidence that the lost funding will be matched post Brexit?

FOR THE 6TH TIME.

I HAVE NO EVIDENCE.

I ONLY HAVE AN OPINION.

YOU HAVE NO, ZERO, NADA OR ZILCH EVIDENCE

YOU ONLY HAVE AN OPINION. ( based on assumptions, projections, scenarios given varying criteria, predictions, assumptions and forecasts.)