Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

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NewClaret
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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by NewClaret » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:42 pm

keith1879 wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:33 pm
Even if Cummings was only present to observe and report back does it not strike anyone as being highly likely that his report will be so slanted as to be potentially useless? Take a look at his wikipaedia page....is this the kind of person who should be trusted to carry reports of scientific procedings? The point is that such reports need to be carried by someone who will pass them on even if he/she disagrees with them. Maybe Alastair Campbell was in the equivalent committee 20 years ago....do two wrongs make a right?
Who’s this Warner chap? Maybe that’s why BoJo sent two advisors?

Can’t imagine he’ll be blind to his shortcummings?

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Burnley Ace » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:46 pm

You have to put all these stories into a political context. At the moment Labour have nothing. They have a new leader who hasn’t had any opportunity to make an impact (I would go as far as to say that to the general public he’s unrecognisable), they are behind in the polls by a massive amount, they have no influence in Parliament, they can’t attack the government on the economy or foreign policy etc.

All they can do is try to get their activists and pet journalists to keep any sort of negative story alive in a hope that they can come back to it with the benefit of hindsight- there’s not enough testing, it’s the wrong sort of testing, the wrong people are being tested, they ignored a report from 2016, they didn’t join the EU fund etc etc with the hope that some of it might stick.

They are in the political wilderness desperate to find a route back to some sort of relevance.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Grumps » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:07 pm

bfcmik wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:22 pm
I was an advisor to meetings about the resettlement of people with learning disabilities in the mid/late 1980s and then again, as Chair of Policy on a District Council, discussing future social housing and care needs in the 1990s. I have a couple of acquaintances who have been involved in various advisory committees in the past few years who report that little has changed with regard to the unofficial rules of appointment. (All for Conservative governments despite my Labour Party membership)

I looked at applying to be a lay member of the Care Quality Commission a couple of years ago but the job summary, description and preferred skill set seemed to be practically unchanged in the last 35 years!
So you don't know anything about sage

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by NewClaret » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:09 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:46 pm
You have to put all these stories into a political context. At the moment Labour have nothing. They have a new leader who hasn’t had any opportunity to make an impact (I would go as far as to say that to the general public he’s unrecognisable), they are behind in the polls by a massive amount, they have no influence in Parliament, they can’t attack the government on the economy or foreign policy etc.

All they can do is try to get their activists and pet journalists to keep any sort of negative story alive in a hope that they can come back to it with the benefit of hindsight- there’s not enough testing, it’s the wrong sort of testing, the wrong people are being tested, they ignored a report from 2016, they didn’t join the EU fund etc etc with the hope that some of it might stick.

They are in the political wilderness desperate to find a route back to some sort of relevance.
Entirely agree. All media reports need to put in to context.

“Left-wing paper releases anti-Tory story, citing unnamed sources scant on detail” shocker.

Works both ways though.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:24 pm

bfcmik wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:53 pm
These positions are prestigious to the scientific community. It goes a long way to elevating you to the next level of your career. They are also quite well paid.

Who appoints these 'expert scientists' to these committees? Why, the government of course. If you disagree too vociferously or speak out against the decisions or the government, guess what happens to your place on the advisory committee or any chance of government funded research projects heading your way or your university's way?
Hi bfcmik, all credit to you for your advisory experience. Surely, the scientific advisors on SAGE aren't looking for their next career move, they will already be recognised as having the expertise that the gov't requirements to make meaningful contributions to SAGE.

If you check out the Institute for Government site you will find that the Chief Scientific Advisor appoints/selects members of SAGE, probably working alongside Chief Medical Officer where the subject matter requires medical science knowledge.

I'd hazard a guess that anyone working with SAGE is not scrapping around for funding for their next research project. However, if you can provide some cases where this is exactly what has happened I'm happy to learn.
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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Taffy on the wing » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:45 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:18 pm
Yes, possibly. They announced the were buying 3 million tests. They later announced the tests didn't work/weren't accurate enough. Would we have preferred that they had proof that they worked/were accurate before they bought them and when they were ready to place an order they discovered that another customer had already bought all that was available? In the scheme of things the £X million they spent was worth the gamble that they might work or might not work.

I can't remember now if these tests were to identify whether the person tested had the coronavirus at the time of testing, or whether it was a test to show that you'd previously had it. I think it may have been the latter that they've now determined that there are no tests accurate enough for this purpose. The "100,000 capacity" tests are all now the former, of which I understand current capacity > 50,000.
https://nyti.ms/2KdOMWo
I tried to post a link to the article in the NY Times on April 16th.......They were supposed to test for Anti-bodies. They didn't work! As the article points out, it was a panic buy caused by the initial slow/non response.....so to use a Borisism they 'Spaffed 20 million quid up the wall'!

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by tiger76 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:46 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:50 pm
Sorry 2 Mllionhttps://nyti.ms/2KdOMWo
Testing and Tracing is the only way to get ahead ......see Germany and New Zealand.
The Boris Johnson Government screwed up!.....Thousands are dead as a result.....please stop making excuses for them.
The government have made mistakes,no-one is denying that,but this language isn't helpful,it's easy in hindsight to have all the answers,but this is a once in a generation event,and however was in power at the time would have faced difficult choices.

I do agree testing and tracing is the way forward long-term,and that appears to be what the government are ultimately pursuing.

We'll see how the situation develops in New Zealand,they've successful curtailed the 1st wave,but could be more at risk in the event of a 2nd wave.

Everybody would agree that Germany have showed the template for best practice,but they were massively helped by their bio-tech infrastructure already being in place.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Taffy on the wing » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:51 pm

I stand by what i said!.......This Government is a disgrace.
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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by NewClaret » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:01 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:46 pm
The government have made mistakes,no-one is denying that,but this language isn't helpful,it's easy in hindsight to have all the answers,but this is a once in a generation event,and however was in power at the time would have faced difficult choices.

I do agree testing and tracing is the way forward long-term,and that appears to be what the government are ultimately pursuing.

We'll see how the situation develops in New Zealand,they've successful curtailed the 1st wave,but could be more at risk in the event of a 2nd wave.

Everybody would agree that Germany have showed the template for best practice,but they were massively helped by their bio-tech infrastructure already being in place.
No doubt they’ve screwed up on a few things, done some other things well. Pretty much that simple.

As you say, them pesky Germans seem to be the model of efficiency at the moment. Think we should start recruiting scientists called Hans.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by dsr » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:16 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:02 pm
Yep and this the part that becomes a fair discussion.

I havn't argued that the story is definitely 100% accurate but just that the story itself if true is a big deal and throws a question on this govts integrity and honesty

What people across the board are now calling for is for full disclosure and transparency by making all the attendees and minutes of the Sage meeting public.

For me this needs to happen or something similarly concrete enough to show that Cummings and Warners attendance at the meetings did not influence them and risk the independence of the advice and findings given

I think thats a pretty fair position to take
People "across the board" are wanting full disclosure and transparency? The Guardian has so far reported that somebody or other (they haven't said who) has said that Cummings has said things (they haven't said what) at a meeting or two. And they want the government to make a full rebuttal of these allegations?

How about first of all finding out who had accused Cummings and what is accused of. That will make the government's defence a little easier to prepare; and it might even provide a bit of full disclosure and transparency as requested.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by NewClaret » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:45 pm

dsr wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:16 pm
People "across the board" are wanting full disclosure and transparency? The Guardian has so far reported that somebody or other (they haven't said who) has said that Cummings has said things (they haven't said what) at a meeting or two. And they want the government to make a full rebuttal of these allegations?

How about first of all finding out who had accused Cummings and what is accused of. That will make the government's defence a little easier to prepare; and it might even provide a bit of full disclosure and transparency as requested.
Ended up googling “Cummings”. This report in the Guardian popped up:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... party-call

If you read the last paragraph they basically raise the same question(s) I did: we need to know what he said in the meeting.

Can only deduce from that they don’t know.

In a separate Guardian report, Raab says Sage members are not disclosed so they remain free from possible influence. Seems reasonable. Minutes are embargoed for two weeks, so guess we’ll find out soon enough.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:51 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:45 pm
https://nyti.ms/2KdOMWo
I tried to post a link to the article in the NY Times on April 16th.......They were supposed to test for Anti-bodies. They didn't work! As the article points out, it was a panic buy caused by the initial slow/non response.....so to use a Borisism they 'Spaffed 20 million quid up the wall'!
I've got good news for you Taffy, NYT reports USD 20 million, that's somewhere of the order of GBP 16 million. I don't know why I'd expect you to be familiar with differences between USD and GBP, you living on West Coast and all that.

In case you missed it, UK gov't has also reported that the tests don't work.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:06 am

dsr wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:16 pm
People "across the board" are wanting full disclosure and transparency? The Guardian has so far reported that somebody or other (they haven't said who) has said that Cummings has said things (they haven't said what) at a meeting or two. And they want the government to make a full rebuttal of these allegations?

How about first of all finding out who had accused Cummings and what is accused of. That will make the government's defence a little easier to prepare; and it might even provide a bit of full disclosure and transparency as requested.
Its two members of Sage who want their identity protected as they will be worried what making an enemy of Cummings and the Govt might do to their career and livlihoods

No one in the govt has challenged that the Gaurdian sources are who they say the are and they have confirmed one of their claims that Cummings and Warner have been present at Sage meetings

The main point of dispute is now what role Cummings and Warner played in the meetings. This could be clarified by releasing the sage meetings minutes

There is cross party support for this transparency and even the leading members of Sage have stated they would prefer more openness which would help build trust and confidence

The govt haven't offered any credible reason not disclose the details of the meetings so its quite natural to assume they may have something to hide

What is your problem with wanting more openness and transparency from the govt? If they are acting in a fit and proper way as they say they are then there is nothing to hide

Tory MP David Davis has given examples of similar meetings where there is disclosure and voiced his concerns at these Sage details being hidden

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by dsr » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:45 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:06 am
Its two members of Sage who want their identity protected as they will be worried what making an enemy of Cummings and the Govt might do to their career and livlihoods

No one in the govt has challenged that the Gaurdian sources are who they say the are and they have confirmed one of their claims that Cummings and Warner have been present at Sage meetings

The main point of dispute is now what role Cummings and Warner played in the meetings. This could be clarified by releasing the sage meetings minutes

There is cross party support for this transparency and even the leading members of Sage have stated they would prefer more openness which would help build trust and confidence

The govt haven't offered any credible reason not disclose the details of the meetings so its quite natural to assume they may have something to hide

What is your problem with wanting more openness and transparency from the govt? If they are acting in a fit and proper way as they say they are then there is nothing to hide

Tory MP David Davis has given examples of similar meetings where there is disclosure and voiced his concerns at these Sage details being hidden
Doing it your way, the minutes must be disclosed absolutely in full. There can be no redaction of any part of the minutes, or the Guardian could just claim that that's the bit their anonymous correspondents were talking about.

Perhaps there are parts of the meeting that should be redacted. Even if the anonymous members don't want to say who they are, they could say what it is other than the vaguest generalities that they disagree with. They could also say what the chairman of the meeting thinks and why (if he agrees) he didn't take action. Or she, of course.

I do find it hard to imagine a committee of pre-eminent scientists all changing thei rmind when a non-scientists chimes in with "Boris thinks ...". And it's still hard to get my head round the idea that it's wrong in principle that any sort of subcommittee has an observer from "on high" present. It's normal.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:57 am

The government can't claim it's taking independent scientific advice, because two political advisers are sitting in on the panel discussions. The panel has a route to report to the government so they don't actually need to be there to observe. Their presence politicises the science. If the government feels they need to be there, then the government can't say it's "taking independent scientific advice" because it no longer is.
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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by dsr » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:18 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:57 am
The government can't claim it's taking independent scientific advice, because two political advisers are sitting in on the panel discussions. The panel has a route to report to the government so they don't actually need to be there to observe. Their presence politicises the science. If the government feels they need to be there, then the government can't say it's "taking independent scientific advice" because it no longer is.
If the scientists are as useless as you say they are, then their advice would be worthless anyway.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Taffy on the wing » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:55 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:51 pm
I've got good news for you Taffy, NYT reports USD 20 million, that's somewhere of the order of GBP 16 million. I don't know why I'd expect you to be familiar with differences between USD and GBP, you living on West Coast and all that.

In case you missed it, UK gov't has also reported that the tests don't work.
Hair splitting.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by joey13 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:55 am

Any government defenders prepared to defend the fact they still haven’t brought in checks at airports or 14 day quarantine after entering the country ,anyone ?

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Grumps » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:04 am

joey13 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:55 am
Any government defenders prepared to defend the fact they still haven’t brought in checks at airports or 14 day quarantine after entering the country ,anyone ?
What test would you give them?

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:19 am

Grumps wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:04 am
What test would you give them?
Probably not an IQ test if joey was conducting it

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by joey13 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:11 am

Grumps wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:04 am
What test would you give them?
Maybe read the question

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by joey13 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:11 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:19 am
Probably not an IQ test if joey was conducting it
So that’s a no then

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Grumps » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:31 am

joey13 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:11 am
Maybe read the question
There are several tests, it's a simple question you seem to be struggling with on various threads, which of the tests would you carry out on the passengers?
There's a temperature test, which has been shown not to be entirely accurate, and many with the virus don't show up on temperature tests.
There's the full tests, which the results take hours if not days to come through

Which one would you suggest?

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by joey13 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:33 am

Grumps wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:31 am
There are several tests, it's a simple question you seem to be struggling with on various threads, which of the tests would you carry out on the passengers?
There's a temperature test, which has been shown not to be entirely accurate, and many with the virus don't show up on temperature tests.
There's the full tests, which the results take hours if not days to come through

Which one would you suggest?
Various threads ok then

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Burnley Ace » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:44 am

I will - absolutely pointless testing people who have already been monitored before they get on a flight. There are more people travelling on the Tube untested than using airports. Unless you are going to close down all public transport.

Where do you put all the people when they are waiting for the test results? The only reason to test people is to placate all those looking to attack the government.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by aggi » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:47 am

joey13 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:55 am
Any government defenders prepared to defend the fact they still haven’t brought in checks at airports or 14 day quarantine after entering the country ,anyone ?
There's not much point doing it now whilst the virus is already pretty prevalent in the country. The time to do it would have been a few months ago when the spread was limited here.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:35 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:57 am
The government can't claim it's taking independent scientific advice, because two political advisers are sitting in on the panel discussions. The panel has a route to report to the government so they don't actually need to be there to observe. Their presence politicises the science. If the government feels they need to be there, then the government can't say it's "taking independent scientific advice" because it no longer is.
The trouble is Andrew, some people here don't want that to be true and will attempt to shrug off, underplay and normalize anything the government does even when it flies in the face of the most basic principals such as scientific impartiality.
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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:12 am

Boris speaking in Feb primarily about Brexit but the comments below give you an idea of where his ideology was around the potential threat of Coronavirus that no doubt shaped his early strategy around taking it on the chin and resisting tougher measures around social distancing and lockdown

Remember the scientific advice that provided the reasoning for Johnsons strategy was formed in the presence of Johnsons top political advisor and arguably one of the most influential persons in this country around govt strategy and policy

"World trading volumes are lagging behind global growth.Trade used to grow at roughly double global GDP – from 1987 to 2007.Now it barely keeps pace and global growth is itself anaemic and the decline in global poverty is beginning to slow.

And in that context, we are starting to hear some bizarre autarkic rhetoric, when barriers are going up, and when there is a risk that new diseases such as coronavirus will trigger a panic and a desire for market segregation that go beyond what is medically rational to the point of doing real and unnecessary economic damage, then at that moment humanity needs some government somewhere that is willing at least to make the case powerfully for freedom of exchange, some country ready to take off its Clark Kent spectacles and leap into the phone booth and emerge with its cloak flowing as the supercharged champion, of the right of the populations of the earth to buy and sell freely among each other.

And here in Greenwich in the first week of February 2020, I can tell you in all humility that the UK is ready for that role."

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:38 am

joey13 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:55 am
Any government defenders prepared to defend the fact they still haven’t brought in checks at airports or 14 day quarantine after entering the country ,anyone ?
What would be the benefit of checking people specifically at airports, or quarantining them even?

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:03 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:06 am
Its two members of Sage who want their identity protected as they will be worried what making an enemy of Cummings and the Govt might do to their career and livlihoods

No one in the govt has challenged that the Gaurdian sources are who they say the are and they have confirmed one of their claims that Cummings and Warner have been present at Sage meetings

The main point of dispute is now what role Cummings and Warner played in the meetings. This could be clarified by releasing the sage meetings minutes

There is cross party support for this transparency and even the leading members of Sage have stated they would prefer more openness which would help build trust and confidence

The govt haven't offered any credible reason not disclose the details of the meetings so its quite natural to assume they may have something to hide

What is your problem with wanting more openness and transparency from the govt? If they are acting in a fit and proper way as they say they are then there is nothing to hide

Tory MP David Davis has given examples of similar meetings where there is disclosure and voiced his concerns at these Sage details being hidden
Minutes are revealed eventually, Gov advisors have a history of attending Sage meetings and at yesterdays briefing it was stated the reason members details are usually kept secret is to avoid pressure from outside of government.

What you and others like you want is a chance to attack the government right here and now.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Burnley Ace » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:08 pm

A question to Labour supporters - what sort of people are in your party or ones you work with,that are so weak willed, so pathetic, so unsure of themselves, so concerned about their own careers, that they’d capitulate at the slightest pressure?

You’d have us believe that scientists, at the top of their field, change their advice or position because Cummings is sitting in on a meeting? What it does explain is how Corbyn and his cabal managed to take control of the Labour Party. However bad Johnson is at least we can thank our lucky stars that Labour won’t be anywhere near the leavers of control for 10 years.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:19 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:03 pm
Minutes are revealed eventually, Gov advisors have a history of attending Sage meetings and at yesterdays briefing it was stated the reason members details are usually kept secret is to avoid pressure from outside of government.

What you and others like you want is a chance to attack the government right here and now.
No I dont want a chance to attack the govt. What I want is a govt I can trust to act in a right and proper way with integrity and honesty who are not influenced by their own political and/or financial interests in the decisions they take around this crisis

What I have no qualms about is where I believe this not to be the case I will speak out against the govt, share articles that I think need to be discussed and answered and challenge the govt actions

My stance on this has been to share a news story that I think raises an important issue and look for transparency from the govt to help us understand what has gone on.

Pretty much all my disagreement on here has been about people trying to play down and dismiss the story like it was just some unimportant left wing propaganda

So far the story has exposed the unknown fact that Cummings and Warner have been present at Sage meetings. Given the emphasis the govt has put on their actions and decisions being based on independent scientific advice and the previous roles Cummings has played this to me is somewhat damning of our govt actions

Im not yet convinced that Cummings role has been as influential as claimed by the Gaurdian but this is a very important question and I dont think it is an extreme position to demand some clarity and transparency on this from our govt
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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:34 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A question to Labour supporters - what sort of people are in your party or ones you work with,that are so weak willed, so pathetic, so unsure of themselves, so concerned about their own careers, that they’d capitulate at the slightest pressure?

You’d have us believe that scientists, at the top of their field, change their advice or position because Cummings is sitting in on a meeting? What it does explain is how Corbyn and his cabal managed to take control of the Labour Party. However bad Johnson is at least we can thank our lucky stars that Labour won’t be anywhere near the leavers of control for 10 years.
Why are you just directing that question to labour supporters?

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Burnley Ace » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:50 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:34 pm
Why are you just directing that question to labour supporters?
Because the people trying to promote this agenda seem to be the same ones that have previously posted comments supporting the Labour Party (though Andrew states he’s Green).

Why they are doing it is in a previous post. When any anonymous quote is challenged the response is “they are fearful for their career or they don’t want to challenge etc. Craven behaviour seems to be something that they either recognise or are used to.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by IanMcL » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:12 pm

I continue to despair at the UK inability to organise efficiently. Fortunately, this is not a real war, or we would all be gone by now or fighting with our broom handles.

This morning, the website booking tests melted in a hour.

The chair of the Medics then came on the BBC to criticise the actions of the Gov.

1. 100k capacity (which doesn't yet exist) does not mean 100k tests daily. The right number has to be in the right place.

2. If your demand outstrips availability, then you must prioritise.

3. Hospitals medics and care homes first.

4. Other key workers once there is capacity.

5. If there is a positive test, then that persons contacts should be isolated and tested.

6. As this rolls out, millions of tests will be required, to keep the economy going and get on top of potential spenders.

All in all, we will be in lockdown forever!

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by martin_p » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:22 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:01 pm
Loving this quote from your Independent article, Andrew: "It hardly needs to be said that Thomas Cook is not coronavirus."

The Sunday Times has quietly dropped their article from what I've seen. There's been no "follow up" since it was published on Sunday. No discussion of the Gov't response. No further mention of anyone "skipping" any COBRA meetings. That's enough of an admission that ST got it wrong - and not just opening the article with their "brave" statement "On the 3rd Friday in January..." when the 24th is, of course, always in the 4th week of the month.
Surprised you haven’t picked up on the Sunday Times response to the government’s rebuttal Paul, published yesterday (yes, on a Sunday). They’ve far from dropped it.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by martin_p » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:32 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A question to Labour supporters - what sort of people are in your party or ones you work with,that are so weak willed, so pathetic, so unsure of themselves, so concerned about their own careers, that they’d capitulate at the slightest pressure?

You’d have us believe that scientists, at the top of their field, change their advice or position because Cummings is sitting in on a meeting? What it does explain is how Corbyn and his cabal managed to take control of the Labour Party. However bad Johnson is at least we can thank our lucky stars that Labour won’t be anywhere near the leavers of control for 10 years.
Maybe that’s a question for Michael ‘Boris is not up to the job’ Gove.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by keith1879 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:40 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:38 am
What would be the benefit of checking people specifically at airports, or quarantining them even?
There's no way of being 100% correct ....but a quick temperature test or swab test (which does need time to process) would at least pick up some cases that would otherwise be missed. As things stand at present it's probably not worth doing because we have such a lot of the infection here....but if we get to a point where there are other countries with a significantly worse rate then this might make sense for travellers from them.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:54 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:50 pm
Because the people trying to promote this agenda seem to be the same ones that have previously posted comments supporting the Labour Party (though Andrew states he’s Green).

Why they are doing it is in a previous post. When any anonymous quote is challenged the response is “they are fearful for their career or they don’t want to challenge etc. Craven behaviour seems to be something that they either recognise or are used to.
It seems like you're suggesting that you can only question the government if you are a 'supporter' of the opposition. Should tory voters not also be questioning the government? By posing the question in such a way you've inadvertently suggested that you've nailed your tory colours to the mast and will defend them regardless and that anybody who questions them is a labour supporter.

This isn't like supporting a football team, it's not about taking sides. It's about ensuring that the people responsible for running the country are doing a competent job, regardless of the colour of their neck tie.
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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:59 pm

keith1879 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:40 pm
There's no way of being 100% correct ....but a quick temperature test or swab test (which does need time to process) would at least pick up some cases that would otherwise be missed. As things stand at present it's probably not worth doing because we have such a lot of the infection here....but if we get to a point where there are other countries with a significantly worse rate then this might make sense for travellers from them.
But when people arrive in the country they will be subject to the same lockdown restrictions as the rest of us. So they're no more of a risk than you or I would be when returning home from the supermarket.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:09 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:22 pm
Surprised you haven’t picked up on the Sunday Times response to the government’s rebuttal Paul, published yesterday (yes, on a Sunday). They’ve far from dropped it.
Hi martin, yes, I noticed late Sunday evening that the ST was responding to gov't response and they featured it in a leader. Reading some of the comments there appeared to be a number of subscribers who were cancelling their subscriptions (I'm not going to do that).

The Institute of Government blog I linked further up makes sensible comments, including "not now." What do you think of that blog?

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by martin_p » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:40 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:09 pm
Hi martin, yes, I noticed late Sunday evening that the ST was responding to gov't response and they featured it in a leader. Reading some of the comments there appeared to be a number of subscribers who were cancelling their subscriptions (I'm not going to do that).

The Institute of Government blog I linked further up makes sensible comments, including "not now." What do you think of that blog?
I read the blog. It basically agrees with the Sunday Times that there are questions to be answered. I don’t remember it specifically saying ‘not now’.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by tiger76 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:49 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:54 pm
It seems like you're suggesting that you can only question the government if you are a 'supporter' of the opposition. Should tory voters not also be questioning the government? By posing the question in such a way you've inadvertently suggested that you've nailed your tory colours to the mast and will defend them regardless and that anybody who questions them is a labour supporter.

This isn't like supporting a football team, it's not about taking sides. It's about ensuring that the people responsible for running the country are doing a competent job, regardless of the colour of their neck tie.
Regardless of who you voted for in the GE,it''s perfectly reasonable to be able to hold the government to account,and scrutiny from the public,MP'S and the media all play their roles in this process,if the government have nothing to hide,then why are they being so defensive and nontransparent,reminds me of the Dodgy Dossier episode under Blair.

The government have responded to this crisis fairly well,but there have been failings,communication issues,PPE shortages,and the relatively slow initial reaction to how dangerous this virus could prove to be,chief amongst them,how much input the chief adviser has played in the strategy is a fair :?: to ask in my view.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:16 pm

martin_p wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:40 pm
I read the blog. It basically agrees with the Sunday Times that there are questions to be answered. I don’t remember it specifically saying ‘not now’.
Hi martin, copy/paste all Catherine Haddon's blog - and underlined when she references a future coronavirus inquiry, both in the heading of her 3rd section and in the body of her text in that section. Note also her use of the phrase "in retrospect..."

Questions over the prime minister’s coronavirus COBR absences are not straightforward

Catherine Haddon
23 April 2020
The prime minister's decision to let the health secretary chair the first five coronavirus COBR meetings may have been for good reasons, but questions about Boris Johnson’s role in the early days of the crisis will continue to be asked, says Catherine Haddon

The 19 April Sunday Times Insight report was highly critical of the government’s handling of the early days of the Covid-19 crisis – so much so, and in so much detail, that the government posted a point-by-point rebuttal. In what the paper called the ‘lost 38 days’, the prime minister is reported to have missed five COBR high level crisis management meetings. The piece concluded that this was symbolic of his failure to grip the crisis at an earlier stage.

The government argues to the contrary, that the prime minister was in charge. But the prime minister's non-attendance of COBR is a question worth asking, and the issue of how quickly and how thoroughly he gripped the crisis in those all-important weeks is not a question the government can avoid.

COBR can operate without the Prime Minister

The government is right to say that prime ministers do not automatically chair every COBR meeting. The civil contingency committee, COBR’s formal name, meets in both ministerial and official forms. In the initial stages of a crisis the chair can often be the minister for the department most heavily involved in the nature of that crisis, with the prime minister stepping in when he or she believes it necessary. If the government considered that the Covid-19 response should be led by the health department, then it can legitimately argue that the secretary of state for health was the right person to chair the earliest meetings.

Prime ministers shouldn’t always jump in and take over whenever any crisis first takes hold. Announcing that a prime minister is chairing COBR can sometimes be a way to demonstrate that he or she is on top of an issue and taking action, when a meeting may not have been necessary at that time. Likewise, officials have warned that excessive COBR meetings can be just as unhelpful as a lack of them, as they get in the way of the necessary response. But coronavirus is not any crisis. The importance of those few weeks may become clearer in retrospect, but questions about Johnson’s role were being asked at the time.

The prime minister's absence raises fair questions about his grip on the emerging crisis

The government acknowledges that the prime minister did not chair a COBR meeting until March 2. His first appearance came after a week of growing criticism from opposition politicians and the media.

But the bigger question is over the prime minister's overall level of involvement in the initial response. Does his absence from the chair equate to a lack of personal involvement in the rapidly changing situation? Was it part of a wider failure of government to fully appreciate the growing threat? Or, as the government’s rebuttal implies, was he in charge even while not chairing the meeting?

Responding to the Sunday Times article, the government argues that the health secretary was ‘in constant communication' with Johnson throughout the period and that the prime minister was ‘at the helm of the government response’. Probing what that means is important. Being kept informed of what was discussed at high level crisis response meetings is not the same as being in the room, responding to new information and challenging officials and experts on the decisions they were advocating, or asking questions no one else was yet asking.

A future coronavirus inquiry will need to look at when the prime minister took charge of the response

Johnson’s role in the growing crisis matters because prime ministers can play such an influential role – either politically or in pulling the government together. Tony Blair recalls the moment in the 2000 fuel protest crisis when he realised that ‘no one seemed to have much of an answer’. He convened urgent meetings with the police and with the oil companies, and then chaired COBR himself. During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in 2001, Nick Brown, the minister for agriculture, led the UK response until Blair returned from an overseas trip and realised that ‘he had to step in.’ As Blair put it: ‘The only thing to do at a time like this is to show you are on top of it and give a general appearance of being in charge’. The big question is therefore not just what meetings Johnson chaired, but also what difference he made or could have made.

The government now needs to look ahead to the huge decisions coming down the track, not back at ones that have been made already. Johnson is still recuperating but will be back at the helm eventually. But any future inquiry into this government’s handling of the coronavirus outbreak will look at when the prime minister received early advice, information and discussions, how he reacted, and how that affected the government’s response to the scale of the crisis. And that inquiry will also need to determine how an earlier COBR appearance by Johnson could have helped.
The government is determined to redress what it sees as an unfair, and at times incorrect, account, but questions over how, and when, a prime minister takes charge in a national crisis are fair. COBR doesn’t need to be chaired by prime ministers – but Boris Johnson’s role in the early stages of the coronavirus outbreak is not a question he can avoid.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by Spijed » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:20 pm


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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by martin_p » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:31 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:16 pm
Hi martin, copy/paste all Catherine Haddon's blog - and underlined when she references a future coronavirus inquiry, both in the heading of her 3rd section and in the body of her text in that section. Note also her use of the phrase "in retrospect..."

Questions over the prime minister’s coronavirus COBR absences are not straightforward

Catherine Haddon
23 April 2020
The prime minister's decision to let the health secretary chair the first five coronavirus COBR meetings may have been for good reasons, but questions about Boris Johnson’s role in the early days of the crisis will continue to be asked, says Catherine Haddon

The 19 April Sunday Times Insight report was highly critical of the government’s handling of the early days of the Covid-19 crisis – so much so, and in so much detail, that the government posted a point-by-point rebuttal. In what the paper called the ‘lost 38 days’, the prime minister is reported to have missed five COBR high level crisis management meetings. The piece concluded that this was symbolic of his failure to grip the crisis at an earlier stage.

The government argues to the contrary, that the prime minister was in charge. But the prime minister's non-attendance of COBR is a question worth asking, and the issue of how quickly and how thoroughly he gripped the crisis in those all-important weeks is not a question the government can avoid.

COBR can operate without the Prime Minister

The government is right to say that prime ministers do not automatically chair every COBR meeting. The civil contingency committee, COBR’s formal name, meets in both ministerial and official forms. In the initial stages of a crisis the chair can often be the minister for the department most heavily involved in the nature of that crisis, with the prime minister stepping in when he or she believes it necessary. If the government considered that the Covid-19 response should be led by the health department, then it can legitimately argue that the secretary of state for health was the right person to chair the earliest meetings.

Prime ministers shouldn’t always jump in and take over whenever any crisis first takes hold. Announcing that a prime minister is chairing COBR can sometimes be a way to demonstrate that he or she is on top of an issue and taking action, when a meeting may not have been necessary at that time. Likewise, officials have warned that excessive COBR meetings can be just as unhelpful as a lack of them, as they get in the way of the necessary response. But coronavirus is not any crisis. The importance of those few weeks may become clearer in retrospect, but questions about Johnson’s role were being asked at the time.

The prime minister's absence raises fair questions about his grip on the emerging crisis

The government acknowledges that the prime minister did not chair a COBR meeting until March 2. His first appearance came after a week of growing criticism from opposition politicians and the media.

But the bigger question is over the prime minister's overall level of involvement in the initial response. Does his absence from the chair equate to a lack of personal involvement in the rapidly changing situation? Was it part of a wider failure of government to fully appreciate the growing threat? Or, as the government’s rebuttal implies, was he in charge even while not chairing the meeting?

Responding to the Sunday Times article, the government argues that the health secretary was ‘in constant communication' with Johnson throughout the period and that the prime minister was ‘at the helm of the government response’. Probing what that means is important. Being kept informed of what was discussed at high level crisis response meetings is not the same as being in the room, responding to new information and challenging officials and experts on the decisions they were advocating, or asking questions no one else was yet asking.

A future coronavirus inquiry will need to look at when the prime minister took charge of the response

Johnson’s role in the growing crisis matters because prime ministers can play such an influential role – either politically or in pulling the government together. Tony Blair recalls the moment in the 2000 fuel protest crisis when he realised that ‘no one seemed to have much of an answer’. He convened urgent meetings with the police and with the oil companies, and then chaired COBR himself. During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in 2001, Nick Brown, the minister for agriculture, led the UK response until Blair returned from an overseas trip and realised that ‘he had to step in.’ As Blair put it: ‘The only thing to do at a time like this is to show you are on top of it and give a general appearance of being in charge’. The big question is therefore not just what meetings Johnson chaired, but also what difference he made or could have made.

The government now needs to look ahead to the huge decisions coming down the track, not back at ones that have been made already. Johnson is still recuperating but will be back at the helm eventually. But any future inquiry into this government’s handling of the coronavirus outbreak will look at when the prime minister received early advice, information and discussions, how he reacted, and how that affected the government’s response to the scale of the crisis. And that inquiry will also need to determine how an earlier COBR appearance by Johnson could have helped.
The government is determined to redress what it sees as an unfair, and at times incorrect, account, but questions over how, and when, a prime minister takes charge in a national crisis are fair. COBR doesn’t need to be chaired by prime ministers – but Boris Johnson’s role in the early stages of the coronavirus outbreak is not a question he can avoid.
That doesn’t state when other than in the future, which is tautology to be honest, you can’t hold one in the past. The future has arrived since I started typing this sentence! We’re already able to look ‘in retrospect’ at the early handing of the crisis.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:42 pm

We still talking about Cobra and the presence of a PM?


Screenshot_20200427-154406_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20200427-154406_Samsung Internet.jpg (345.96 KiB) Viewed 2660 times

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:47 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:19 pm
No I dont want a chance to attack the govt. What I want is a govt I can trust to act in a right and proper way with integrity and honesty who are not influenced by their own political and/or financial interests in the decisions they take around this crisis

What I have no qualms about is where I believe this not to be the case I will speak out against the govt, share articles that I think need to be discussed and answered and challenge the govt actions

My stance on this has been to share a news story that I think raises an important issue and look for transparency from the govt to help us understand what has gone on.

Pretty much all my disagreement on here has been about people trying to play down and dismiss the story like it was just some unimportant left wing propaganda

So far the story has exposed the unknown fact that Cummings and Warner have been present at Sage meetings. Given the emphasis the govt has put on their actions and decisions being based on independent scientific advice and the previous roles Cummings has played this to me is somewhat damning of our govt actions

Im not yet convinced that Cummings role has been as influential as claimed by the Gaurdian but this is a very important question and I dont think it is an extreme position to demand some clarity and transparency on this from our govt
You shared a story that's been dismissed, can be proven to be incorrect etc and you're still flogging it.

Advisors attend Sage meetings, they have done for years.
The minutes will be produced when this is all over.

Other Sage members don't have their details leaked to ensure they don't face external pressure whilst making that decision.

Who would you reccomend attend any further sage meetings in the future, that will then be reporting back to the PM?

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by martin_p » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:47 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:42 pm
We still talking about Cobra and the presence of a PM?



Screenshot_20200427-154406_Samsung Internet.jpg
A better comparison would be a direct threat to this country rather than another. PM Theresa May chaired the COBRA meeting after the Manchester bomb.

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Re: Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

Post by martin_p » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:49 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:47 pm
You shared a story that's been dismissed, can be proven to be incorrect etc and you're still flogging it.
Where is the proof?

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