Trump/Russia Dossier

Uwe Noble · Post by **Uwe Noble** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:50 pm

"But as well as some of it being untrue i'm certain that large portions of it will be found to be accurate." So basically you don't know. Then you've got the cheek to say to Trump, 'prove to me that you did n't do this'.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:54 pm

Uwe Noble wrote:"But as well as some of it being untrue i'm certain that large portions of it will be found to be accurate." So basically you don't know. Then you've got the cheek to say to Trump, 'prove to me that you did n't do this'.

I've not once said or suggested anything like that (that Trump should prove a negative). However you've claimed that the dossier has been discredited therefore it's on you to provide the evidence that it has been discredited. You haven't done that, because you can't do that, because it's not true that it has been discredited.

Uwe Noble · Post by **Uwe Noble** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:55 pm

Tell you what, why don't you tell me one verified allegation about Trump from the dossier?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:07 pm

None of it has been verified, but i'm not claiming it has. Again, you're the one claiming that it has been discredited. Why aren't you providing supporting evidence to your claim that it has been discredited.

Why are you refusing to support your statement? What makes you say that the dossier has been discredited?

Uwe Noble · Post by **Uwe Noble** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:08 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:This right here is why no one respects you. I already addressed this fallacy that all they did was make social media posts and here you are still believing it.

Not only did the Russians hack into the DNC and release documents they stole to help Trump win, they also hacked voting rolls and machines. And if you think that all they did was hack those machines and then do nothing one they were in then you're even dumber than the typical Trump supporter/apologist/appeaser.

Also, please elaborate on your claim that the Russians hacked voting machines and then insinuate that they altered the vote tally. If you can't substantiate this then you need to withdraw it. Thanks.

Uwe Noble · Post by **Uwe Noble** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:16 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:None of it has been verified, but i'm not claiming it has. Again, you're the one claiming that it has been discredited. Why aren't you providing supporting evidence to your claim that it has been discredited.

Why are you refusing to support your statement? What makes you say that the dossier has been discredited?

So an innocent man has to prove that unverified evidence about him is not true before you will accept his innocence. Give it up. You just hate the guy and can't stand the fact that some people voted him President and have a different opinion to you.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:23 pm

https://twitter.com/HuffPostUK/status/1 ... 9477985280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:29 pm

Uwe Noble wrote:Also, please elaborate on your claim that the Russians hacked voting machines and then insinuate that they altered the vote tally. If you can't substantiate this then you need to withdraw it. Thanks.

Here's the archived version of an article:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180727124 ... 1827871206" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here's a follow up to it with corrections becausde the author was somewhat gungho:
https://www.theroot.com/evidence-shows- ... 1827871206" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What you'll notice if you read both is that one thing that isn't corrected is the fact that Russians hacked voting systems and once inside had the ability to change votes. That's already known. HEre's the article by Bloomberg News: https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/13/r ... elections/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, when are you going to show me how the dossier was discredited? Or are you going to just continue to try to distract from the fact that you've made a claim that you cannot support?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:35 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:https://twitter.com/HuffPostUK/status/1 ... 9477985280

This is an "innocent man" confessing his guilt on TV. Again. Uwe noble will still claim that he's innocent.

Uwe Noble · Post by **Uwe Noble** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:38 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Are you suffering from the effects of a serious head injury?

So Trump is innocent of Russian collusion/conspiracy. Thanks for that concession. Now produce the evidence for your claim that the Russians altered the voting rolls. Otherwise, withdraw your claim.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:44 pm

Uwe Noble wrote:So Trump is innocent of Russian collusion/conspiracy. Thanks for that concession. Now produce the evidence for your claim that the Russians altered the voting rolls. Otherwise, withdraw your claim.

Where did i make that claim? Trump isn't innocent. He confessed his guild the other day when he said that those payments were made from him, not the campaign. That's why it was a crime. He made the payment himself and didn't report it as a campaign contribution. He is not innocent.

And you've yet to show me how the Steele Dossier has been discredited. That's a claim you actually did make.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:58 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Where did i make that claim? Trump isn't innocent. He confessed his guild the other day when he said that those payments were made from him, not the campaign. That's why it was a crime. He made the payment himself and didn't report it as a campaign contribution. He is not innocent.

And you've yet to show me how the Steele Dossier has been discredited. That's a claim you actually did make.

According to Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz you are 100% wrong. Not that I know anything about campaign contribution law, but clearly you and Professor Dershowitz do. So it will be interesting to see which of you has correctly interpreted the law and which of you will be proved wrong.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:02 pm

FCBurnley wrote:According to Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz you are 100% wrong. Not that I know anything about campaign contribution law, but clearly you and Professor Dershowitz do. So it will be interesting to see which of you has correctly interpreted the law and which of you will be proved wrong.

I haven't read what Dershowitz has wrote but i'd imagine he's said something along the line of it's perfectly legal for a candidate to donate to his own campaign. And that's true. Trump didn't commit a crime by using his own money. What i said was incomplete. I should have said he committed a crime by using his own money and then not reporting it as a campaign contribution.

But you tell me, did Prof. Dershowitz say that it wasn't a crime to not report his own contribution?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:05 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I haven't read what Dershowitz has wrote but i'd imagine he's said something along the line of it's perfectly legal for a candidate to donate to his own campaign. And that's true. Trump didn't commit a crime by using his own money. What i said was incomplete. I should have said he committed a crime by using his own money and then not reporting it as a campaign contribution.

I suggest you read what Dershowitz said.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:07 pm

So here's how it's a crime. Trump admitted he made the contribution himself. When you look at his campaign's records you see that he didn't report it. It makes sense that he wouldn't want to report it, because the press would ask "what are these payments to a model and a pornstar?" and that would defeat the purpose of paying them off in the first place.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:10 pm

FCBurnley wrote:I suggest you read what Dershowitz said.

"If the president had paid $280,000 to these two women, even if he had done so in order to help his campaign, that would be no problem," Dershowitz told Fox News' "Special Report." "The candidate is entitled to contribute a million dollars to his own campaign, as long as he reports it."

Simple question: Did Trump report it?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:15 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:"If the president had paid $280,000 to these two women, even if he had done so in order to help his campaign, that would be no problem," Dershowitz told Fox News' "Special Report." "The candidate is entitled to contribute a million dollars to his own campaign, as long as he reports it."

Simple question: Did Trump report it?

I dont know but clearly you do ?

Uwe Noble · Post by **Uwe Noble** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:20 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Where did i make that claim? Trump isn't innocent. He confessed his guild the other day when he said that those payments were made from him, not the campaign. That's why it was a crime. He made the payment himself and didn't report it as a campaign contribution. He is not innocent.

And you've yet to show me how the Steele Dossier has been discredited. That's a claim you actually did make.

So, let's get this right. Your original contention that Trump conspired/colluded with Russia has now been replaced with some obscure claim that Trump is now guilty of breaking the law on campaign contributions. Pathetic. By the way, was not Obama's campaign fined for campaign finance violations?

Uwe Noble · Post by **Uwe Noble** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Here's the archived version of an article:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180727124 ... 1827871206" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here's a follow up to it with corrections becausde the author was somewhat gungho:
https://www.theroot.com/evidence-shows- ... 1827871206" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What you'll notice if you read both is that one thing that isn't corrected is the fact that Russians hacked voting systems and once inside had the ability to change votes. That's already known. HEre's the article by Bloomberg News: https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/13/r ... elections/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, when are you going to show me how the dossier was discredited? Or are you going to just continue to try to distract from the fact that you've made a claim that you cannot support?

What a convoluted, disingenuous response to a simple question. You very clearly implied that votes were changed by Russian hacking. Now you seem to be disavowing yourself but don't have the integrity to admit you're wrong. You are now saying that votes were not affected. Make your mind up or is this more fake news from you?

I am going to have my tea now and then settle down to watch the match. I will return to this debate after Trump declassifies the FISA . In the meantime, up the Clarets!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:34 pm

Uwe Noble wrote:So, let's get this right. Your original contention that Trump conspired/colluded with Russia has now been replaced with some obscure claim that Trump is now guilty of breaking the law on campaign contributions. Pathetic. By the way, was not Obama's campaign fined for campaign finance violations?

Innocent people don't act like Trump. If Trump was innocent then he wouldn't have fired James Comey for his Russia investigation, he wouldn't be decrying Jeff Sessions recusing himself because in Trump's mind he was supposed to protect him from being investigated. He wouldn't be threatening to fire Mueller, or even saying anything other than "i will cooperate fully with the investigation". If Trump was innocent he wouldn't be **** scared of this mythical "Perjury Trap" if he was to submit to questioning because it's really easy for an innocent person to simply not tell lies under oath.

Based on all that i've come to the opinion that Trump is up to his eyeballs in a conspiracy to collude with Russia to influence the US election.

Add to that all the other evidence, such as so many people in his campaign being Russian assets and lying about it, Trump's reluctance to enact sanctions on Russia for their interference, Trump's rejection of the IC's findings that Russia influenced the election for Trump's benefit, Trump's complete submission to Putin in Helsinki, Trump leaking codeword classified intelligence to the Russian ambassador that compromised an Israeli intelligence operation, and so on, and so on, and so on.

I don't expect you to answer this question, because you hypocritically expect me to answer yours but you hate answering mine (probably because you can't), but if Trump is as innocent as he claims then why does he not want the Russia investigation to be allowed to find that out?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:38 pm

Uwe Noble wrote:What a convoluted, disingenuous response to a simple question. You very clearly implied that votes were changed by Russian hacking. Now you seem to be disavowing yourself but don't have the integrity to admit you're wrong. You are now saying that votes were not affected. Make your mind up or is this more fake news from you?

I am going to have my tea now and then settle down to watch the match. I will return to this debate after Trump declassifies the FISA . In the meantime, up the Clarets!

I answered your question. It's a perfectly fine answer that backs up what i posted. Russia hacked voting systems. They were then capable of changing votes. I think you have to be a special kind of moron to believe that they successfully hacked the electoral systems but didn't do anything else when in there, including changing votes. I can understand why you're having trouble understanding it because it requires the application of basic logic.

When are you going to support your claim that the dossier has been discredited?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:26 pm

Still waiting for your proof of non reporting by Trump on 567.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:29 pm

Loving this.

Lets ignore all the stuff that Trump and Russia are 100% guilty of

And concentrate on the stuff (getting less and less each day) that its not proved YET that he is.

There is only one thing worse than backing the wrong horse, and that is refusing to admit that you might have made a mistake in the first place by backing it.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:34 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Loving this.

Lets ignore all the stuff that Trump and Russia are 100% guilty of

And concentrate on the stuff (getting less and less each day) that its not proved YET that he is.

There is only one thing worse than backing the wrong horse, and that is refusing to admit that you might have made a mistake in the first place by backing it.

List of 100% guilty stuff please .

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:12 pm

FCBurnley wrote:List of 100% guilty stuff please .

Remember how Clinton's use of a personal email server disqualified her from the presidency even thought the FBI investigated it thoroughly and decided it was nothing worth bringing charges over? But you still thought she was 100% guilty anyway.

It's funny how you lot have a double standard when it comes to the level of proof of wrong-doing you'll require when it comes to the guy you supported enough to vote for.

And do you remember how Clinton conducted herself during that investigation? Like an adult. Trump can't even achieve that.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:08 pm

Astonishing that you actually think there isn't ANYTHING

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:11 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Cohen pleaded guilty to it, you ******* half-wit. If they'd reported it when they'd made the payment then it wouldn't have been a ******* crime.

If Cohen pleaded guilty then Trump cannot be guilty as well. Read Derschowitz very carefully although it might be difficult for you to understand

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:13 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Astonishing that you actually think there isn't ANYTHING

Even more astonishing that you cannot provide any proof of anything.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:17 pm

FCBurnley wrote:If Cohen pleaded guilty then Trump cannot be guilty as well. Read Derschowitz very carefully although it might be difficult for you to understand

I'm afraid you're the one who's slow to understand. Trump is saying that he himself committed a crime. Trump is saying the money came from him. If Trump is to be believed (ha!) then Trump is guilty because he didn't report that campaign donation. I get what Dershowitz is saying, but i'm not talking about Cohen being guilty, i'm talking about Trump being so stupid that he thinks he's defending himself when actually he's confessing to a crime.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:18 pm

FCBurnley wrote:Even more astonishing that you cannot provide any proof of anything.

Tell me again why you chose Trump over Clinton.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:20 pm

You are in complete denial mate.

Just check the news.

I mean, check the "real news" obviously

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:29 pm

Can't believe it... You tossers are barking on about Trump and the lads have gone down 1-3 in Greece. There are more important things in life than bloody Trump you know, BFC should be your priority.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:30 pm

Today Trump blocked bill that would have helped fight hacking of the elections this November. Yet he blames Obama for not doing enough two years ago (while simultaneously denying that the hacking happened)

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:31 pm

I've just stopped watching it!

You don't get extra points for watching the adverts you know!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:33 pm

Top Claret wrote:Can't believe it... You tossers are barking on about Trump and the lads have gone down 1-3 in Greece. There are more important things in life than bloody Trump you know, BFC should be your priority.

Then shouldn't it be your priority too? Instead of going around telling other people what their priorities should be?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:06 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm afraid you're the one who's slow to understand. Trump is saying that he himself committed a crime. Trump is saying the money came from him. If Trump is to be believed (ha!) then Trump is guilty because he didn't report that campaign donation. I get what Dershowitz is saying, but i'm not talking about Cohen being guilty, i'm talking about Trump being so stupid that he thinks he's defending himself when actually he's confessing to a crime.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:22 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm afraid you're the one who's slow to understand. Trump is saying that he himself committed a crime. Trump is saying the money came from him. If Trump is to be believed (ha!) then Trump is guilty because he didn't report that campaign donation. I get what Dershowitz is saying, but i'm not talking about Cohen being guilty, i'm talking about Trump being so stupid that he thinks he's defending himself when actually he's confessing to a crime.

I imagine that Trump's argument is that he was paying them off as a personal matter (didn't want the wife to find out, etc) rather than to avoid damaging his campaign standing. As such, it wasn't a campaign donation.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:06 am

aggi wrote:I imagine that Trump's argument is that he was paying them off as a personal matter (didn't want the wife to find out, etc) rather than to avoid damaging his campaign standing. As such, it wasn't a campaign donation.

If that was true it wouldn't need to be done through a dummy corporation

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:54 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:If that was true it wouldn't need to be done through a dummy corporation

The fact that he did do it through a dummy corporation doesn't automatically mean that it was for campaign purposes though, just that he didn't want people finding out.

What they will have to do is ascertain source of funds and other evidence from those around Trump to make it into a solid case.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:16 pm

aggi wrote:The fact that he did do it through a dummy corporation doesn't automatically mean that it was for campaign purposes though, just that he didn't want people finding out.

What they will have to do is ascertain source of funds and other evidence from those around Trump to make it into a solid case.

No, of course he didn't want people finding out. But if it wasn't done for the campaign then why didn't he make the payment himself and just not report it? There is no rationale behind going out of your way to hide it from campaign finance reporting and then claiming that you didn't need to report it anyway because it wasn't anything to do with the campaign.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:14 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:No, of course he didn't want people finding out. But if it wasn't done for the campaign then why didn't he make the payment himself and just not report it? There is no rationale behind going out of your way to hide it from campaign finance reporting and then claiming that you didn't need to report it anyway because it wasn't anything to do with the campaign.

So if you were making a payment that you didnt want your wife to find out about, you would pay it in your own name rather than through a corporation that she knew nothing about ? Or as clearly happened you get your lawyer to pay the money and pay the invoice he sends you. If the lawyer was stupid enough to pay it from campaign funds he would probably get arrested, plead guilty and go to Jail. Oh wait...........

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:20 pm

FCBurnley wrote:So if you were making a payment that you didnt want your wife to find out about, you would pay it in your own name rather than through a corporation that she knew nothing about ? Or as clearly happened you get your lawyer to pay the money and pay the invoice he sends you. If the lawyer was stupid enough to pay it from campaign funds he would probably get arrested, plead guilty and go to Jail. Oh wait...........

Which is a crime if you don't report it. Trump reimbursed Cohen but didn't report the payment as a campaign contribution. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:31 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Which is a crime if you don't report it. Trump reimbursed Cohen but didn't report the payment as a campaign contribution. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

As Dershowitz clearly explained, it was Cohen who committed the crime not Trump. If Trump was guilty of any crime he would have already been arrested ( with Cohen) and held in solitary confinement ( like Manafort). It is not a crime to pay your Lawyer for `Services rendered`

Anyway we will agree to disagree as usual. If you are correct and Trump is found guilty I will apologize to you, however my money is on Dershowitz as it was on Trump winning the Election.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:07 pm

I'm going to guess Turtle has never cheated on a spouse.

For those of us that have, we will go to some lengths to hide it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:37 pm

FCBurnley wrote:As Dershowitz clearly explained, it was Cohen who committed the crime not Trump.

If you pay a subordinate to commit a crime and they proceed to commit that crime, then you're a criminal too. How the **** is that not clear?

If Trump was guilty of any crime he would have already been arrested ( with Cohen) and held in solitary confinement ( like Manafort). It is not a crime to pay your Lawyer for `Services rendered`

It's illegal to pay your lawyer to commit a crime for you. It's illegal to pay anyone to commit a crime for you. You have to be a special kind of stupid to think it's not. Cohen accused Trump of instructing him to commit a crime, which is a crime. Trump, in trying to defend himself, confessed to another crime. So which ever one of the two you believe, Trump committed a crime. Do you need me to draw you a diagram or something?

Also, no he wouldn't have been arrested already. First he has to be indicted, and it's still unclear if a sitting president can be criminally indicted. From then there's just no way a sitting president gets locked in a cell. If he was then he's be in solitary confinement too btw, for his own safety just like Manafort was put into solitary (very cushy solitary too with his laptop and internet connection) for his own safety. It's also worth adding that Manafort was under house arrest until he tried to tamper with witnesses, so don't expect anyone reasonable to shed a tear for that scumbag.

There's not much i'd love more to see than the Sergeant-at-Arms frog marching that treacherous piece of turd out of the White House tonight, but I expect Trump is guilty of a great many crimes and to investigate them all thoroughly takes time. So i hope Mueller takes all the time he needs to make sure he has him banged to rights on everything he's done that can be proven.

Anyway we will agree to disagree as usual. If you are correct and Trump is found guilty I will apologize to you, however my money is on Dershowitz as it was on Trump winning the Election.

No apology would be necessary. However things seem to be heating up for President Tiny Hands. His CFO has been granted immunity from prosecution
You've got to ask yourself "why has Trump's CFO sought and been granted immunity from prosecution?". I wonder what the treason could be.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/24/longtim ... urces.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:32 pm

Manafort is pleading guilty to a bunch of **** and is now cooperating with the Mueller investigation.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:07 pm

Yep, was just gonna post this. It's even knocked the hurricane off some US news channels.

The net closes....

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:07 pm

The Trump administration are innocent it's just BS..

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:12 pm

More unhinged tweets on the way over the coming days.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Manafort is pleading guilty to a bunch of **** and is now cooperating with the Mueller investigation.

So what. Trump will just deny everything Manafort says.

ElectroClaret wrote:Yep, was just gonna post this. It's even knocked the hurricane off some US news channels.

The net closes....

No one in either house has the balls to challenge Trump. And in any case he will just pardon himself.