David Davis resigns

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:40 am

Even Donald Trump has us at the back of the queue for Trade Deals.

AMERICA FIRST, ALWAYS,

RUSSIA AND PUTIN A CLOSE SECOND.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:43 am

As for the Trade deals.. Firstly I agree it would be great to use collective bargaining, but unfortunately with the EU, that comes with a lot of political baggage.

Also people playing down the strength and ability of the UK really annoys me. Yes we won't have the might of the EU, but on the flip side we won't have to be pulled into deals that are forced into a one-size-fits-all criteria that we are now. We will be able to create bespoke deals with countries that help both us and them, without the huge tarriff barriers and protectionism that comes with the EU.

We will be able to strike deals with 3rd worlds nations, helping them and us, especially our poor as we could reduce the costs of the essentials. We could make deals that suit our specific, economy, industries, businesses and services, rather than try and find a deal to try and suit the needs of 27 other very different economies, businesses, industry and service needs.

Our biggest problem is that the government have failed to prepare any of this, through utter contempt IMO.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:44 am

Twenty posts

One on rain, one on nasal sprays and 18 on Brexit and antifa, including a big massive picture as your second ever post, and a few attacks on IT as well.

Yeah, you are definitely a brand new poster!

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:45 am

kentonclaret wrote:Even Donald Trump has us at the back of the queue for Trade Deals.

AMERICA FIRST, ALWAYS,

RUSSIA AND PUTIN A CLOSE SECOND.

I don;t think there is anything wrong with putting your own country first, do you?

Trump has stated that as long as he can deal with us and not the Eu, he will strike a trade deal with us that will quadruple our business with them right now. Not exactly back of the queue is it?

Also remember the context of the Obama intervention, it was right in the middle of the referendum campaign. It was not only a threat, but a deliberate intention to sway the vote. Clear foreign interference, but once again it's okay if it's done in favor of the remain camp. Hypocrisy.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:46 am

Who is stonewalling it?

Mudding the waters to try to get away with blatant electoral fraud.

Again, straight out of the play book of those who want to hide dodgy stuff

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:47 am

You think that an America first trade deal will be good for the UK?

I'm not sure there is anybody on here who would agree with you, especially after Trumps performance over the past week.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:47 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Twenty posts

One on rain, one on nasal sprays and 18 on Brexit and antifa, including a big massive picture as your second ever post, and a few attacks on IT as well.

Yeah, you are definitely a brand new poster!

Your point is?

Look, I came here mainly for football, expecting football, but there is lots of political debates and I don't mind a political debate. Does it upset you that I offer an alternative view from your usual political echo-chamber?

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:48 am

nil_desperandum wrote:I'm sorry but that's exactly where your argument falls down. We're no longer a big Empire capable of bullying weaker nations into submission.
Whatever deals we try to make, and whatever treaties we try to negotiate once we'have torn up the old ones will have to be negotiated, and if we end up with "no deal" then we'll be in an impossibly weak position.
As an example India, will exploit our weakness to demand Free Movement of people in exchange for a free trade deal.

Who feeds you this crap.
You don't need an empire to create trade deals. Countries a lot, lot smaller than us trade with the rest of the world successfully, and they have none of our infrastructure or experience.
As for India demanding free movement................

The paranoia that some people have, about the inability of this country to survive outside the EU, when we've managed to stand for a thousand years is sad. If you think you are weak, you are. Conversely if you believe you are strong , you are. I would hate to have some of the people on this board behind me in a fight, they'd run a mile at the first sign of trouble.
I have faith, that this country can overcome any conflict , any situation, any economic fall, by it's ability to stand strong, tighten it's belt, and do whatever hard graft, or take whatever hard decisions are necessary. Your fears are based on the doom laden premonitions of self interested bodies that couldn't give a **** about this country.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Who is stonewalling it?

Mudding the waters to try to get away with blatant electoral fraud.

Again, straight out of the play book of those who want to hide dodgy stuff

The Select Committee. If you want to really make the point of dodgy stuff, then why do remain just not let an investigation happen? Nothing to hide, nothing to fear, right?

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:48 am

Not just the government, those that campaigned so vigorously and vehemently to leave the EU had no idea in reality what Brexit would like but just campaigned solely on an ideology.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:51 am

kentonclaret wrote:Not just the government, those that campaigned so vigorously and vehemently to leave the EU had no idea in reality what Brexit would like but just campaigned solely on an ideology.

Of course no-one can predict what a brexit would look like, but 2 years have been wasted instead of planning properly for it and allowing business to adapt ready for the changes. That is outside of Brexiteers control. that is the failure of Theresa May and her quisling civil servants. This is why it is quite funny to see how confident the remainers are that we would fail because in reality they have no idea either.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:51 am

It took two years of denials from "Vote Leave" that anything remotely dodgy happened.

Two years.

And what do you do now you've been found out.

In true Brexiteer style, "well, okay that is terrible, really bad but it had absolutely zero effect on the referendum and what about the overspending from Remain, that must have been just as big, if not bigger"

Quick lesson new poster, just repeating stuff that you believe does not make it anymore true.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:51 am

martin_p wrote:Again, if you could tell us what this ‘vision’ was it’d be helpful. People who voted for Brexit bang on about ‘everyone knowing what they voted for’, ‘the vision’, etc, but every time they are challenged on it don’t seem to be able to point out where I can see it.

There is no single ‘vision’ in Brexit and that’s the problem. Both before and after the referendum the people who got us to vote for Brexit haven’t managed to offer up what a deal may look like. Nothing to do with ‘remain’ politicians or voters.

Edit - Snap Lancaster!

I voted to be an independent nation, not one that was tethered to the EU, and therefore subject to Brussels. Simples.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:52 am

Of course no-one can predict what a brexit would look like,

What they do is do lots of studies using the available evidence, collated by people who know far more about this than me and you.

How many of those reports came out going "Oh, Brexit will be a breeze"

Not one

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:54 am

Simples.

Yup, that a Brexiteer reply in a nutshell.

I'm out I'm afraid, there are only so many times I can tell people who don't want to see that the light at the end of the tunnel is an approaching train.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:56 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It took two years of denials from "Vote Leave" that anything remotely dodgy happened.

Two years.

And what do you do now you've been found out.

In true Brexiteer style, "well, okay that is terrible, really bad but it had absolutely zero effect on the referendum and what about the overspending from Remain, that must have been just as big, if not bigger"

Quick lesson new poster, just repeating stuff that you believe does not make it anymore true.

I am wondering if you are short in stature because you have an incessant need to try and belittle my position, based on the fact I am new poster, which is frankly ridiculous. Maybe it's to compensate for other things, who knows.

Also, you are using quote marks, but you are not quoting me because I have said nothing of the sort. I will say it again, but I am sure you will still refuse to see it. Both sides need equal scrutiny, in the interest of fairness and right now that clearly is not happening.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:57 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Simples.

Yup, that a Brexiteer reply in a nutshell.

I'm out I'm afraid, there are only so many times I can tell people who don't want to see that the light at the end of the tunnel is an approaching train.

Another Bigot. Completely intolerant of other peoples views. This type attitude played a helpful role in getting Brexit the win in the first place.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:00 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:What they do is do lots of studies using the available evidence, collated by people who know far more about this than me and you.

How many of those reports came out going "Oh, Brexit will be a breeze"

Not one

I don't remember anyone saying Brexit would be a breeze, it clearly would not, but as I saw many times in the campaign, short term pain, long term gain.

Remember the same people predicting Brexit would be a disaster are those same people who said the economy would crash if we didn't join the Euro and that we would not vote to leave the EU. Putting blind faith in people who proven to be wrong time after time is the definition of insanity.

Even people like Mark Carney are softening their stance...

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:01 am

Just out of curiosity Lancs, why does the longevity of Miks tenure on the board command such derision? He appears to be making reasoned arguments to support his position, attack them if you must but you really appear to be reaching if the best you manage is 'your new, your opinion doesn't count'.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:04 am

Reality check for burnleymik

Theresa May is not running the government that is sadly left to the fruit cake Rees Mogg and his barmy band of eurosceptic MP's.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:06 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:no deal would have to do (the impact would be a shudder that we would recover from

lol @ "we".

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:12 am

burnleymik wrote:I don't remember anyone saying Brexit would be a breeze, .

Both David Davis and Liam Fox did, though they didn't actually use the term " a breeze".

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/b ... was-simple" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There were others on the leave side, who also said it would be "very easy" or similar.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:13 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Quick lesson new poster, just repeating stuff that you believe does not make it anymore true.

If you're dishing out lessons...

Old poster, just repeating stuff that you believe does not make it anymore true.

Listen to to your own advice......

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:17 am

Priti Patel: Refusal to probe Remain campaign shows Electoral Commission’s ‘double standards’

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/priti ... standards/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexit: Priti Patel urges Electoral Commission to investigate Remain campaign's Keira Knightley video

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/priti ... standards/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 72021.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:22 am

to be fair, anyone who listens to anything priti patel says is ****** in the head.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:27 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:I voted to be an independent nation, not one that was tethered to the EU, and therefore subject to Brussels. Simples.

So you'd be happy to risk losing your home, job, basically everything just for that?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:28 am

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:43 am

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:08 am

Caballo wrote:Just out of curiosity Lancs, why does the longevity of Miks tenure on the board command such derision? He appears to be making reasoned arguments to support his position, attack them if you must but you really appear to be reaching if the best you manage is 'your new, your opinion doesn't count'.

I dont think the issue is with him being new but that he bares all the traits of an existing banned poster or one using multiple profiles.

Based on his immediate nature of posting id be inclined to agree with Lancaster. If we are correct he's just a bit pathetic really

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:46 am

Spijed wrote:So you'd be happy to risk losing your home, job, basically everything just for that?

But I'm not risking my job, my home, my anything.
My kids are the ones if any that need to be confident, and I wouldn't dream of jeopardizing their future, but I really don't believe all the doom and gloom proficies of those that want to stay. Life will go on pretty much as usual. There are always winners and losers in any change of this magnitude, so there can be no promise that no one will suffer, but for the vast majority I doubt they'll be aware, especially in their day to day lives. Going abroad will probably be the main difference, but that doesn't affect a lot of the country anyway.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:59 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Both David Davis and Liam Fox did, though they didn't actually use the term " a breeze".

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/b ... was-simple" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There were others on the leave side, who also said it would be "very easy" or similar.

fair enough , I concede that. For me personally and a lot of the people I converse with, none of us thought it would be easy, but better for the UK long term.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:01 pm

ah the good old 'i'm alright, jack' attitude of the brexiteer.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:05 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I dont think the issue is with him being new but that he bares all the traits of an existing banned poster or one using multiple profiles.

Based on his immediate nature of posting id be inclined to agree with Lancaster. If we are correct he's just a bit pathetic really

I assure you I have never been on these boards before or banned. My son is really into football and although I have always been an armchair fan of the Clarets and we have been on odd matches here and there, we have decided this year that we will get season tickets. I joined these boards to get a feel for what is going on at the club and behind the scenes, especially with the new signings. I always enjoy political debate and I was a bit surprised to see how one-sided the conversations were and decided to try and add a little balance.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:11 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:ah the good old 'i'm alright, jack' attitude of the brexiteer.

You are misrepresenting us. It's exactly the opposite, nothing to do with it being about us, we want want we feel is the best for the UK and we feel being tethered to the EU is not a good thing for this country. The difference is we want to be the kings of our own destiny and not leave it in the hands of the EU who have to satisfy 27 other countries (for now until they expand again) and all the bureaucracy they come with. The worst of it being the protectionism. I mean there are 30,000+ lobbyists based full time in Brussels and that speaks volumes.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:12 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:There are always winners and losers in any change of this magnitude, so there can be no promise that no one will suffer, but for the vast majority I doubt they'll be aware, especially in their day to day lives. Going abroad will probably be the main difference, but that doesn't affect a lot of the country anyway.

So what happens to those who do lose out, especially those who rely on the EU for trade?

How can they be helped going forward, or is it just a case of "Sod them"?

That seems to be the utterly selfish attitude of those who just want to be out of the EU.

The attitude of JRM, Boris, Liam Fox has been exactly that!

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:16 pm

Maybe this can explain why only one side is receiving any scrutiny...

: electoral.jpg (75.17 KiB) Viewed 2600 times

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:17 pm

Spijed wrote:So what happens to those who do lose out, especially those who rely on the EU for trade?

How can they be helped going forward, or is it just a case of "Sod them"?

That seems to be the utterly selfish attitude of those who just want to be out of the EU.

The attitude of JRM, Boris, Liam Fox has been exactly that!

Okay on the flip side, what about the people who don't trade with the EU, but are forced to adhere to their standards and legislation and all the extra money and time that costs them? Is that just a case of "sod them" for you?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:33 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Course to be perfectly honest, Brexit plus what is going on with President Pee Tape is potentially an utter disaster for this country.

But hey, blue passports and all that jazz

Still the only person I have seen mention Blue passports on here. Calm down dear.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:36 pm

The way I simply see it is - we all had our say in the ballot box & at the time we couldn't be sure of the outcome. Surely democracy means respecting the outcome & not complaining about it afterwards when some of us didn't get our own way, to me that's just a childish attitude, kids sulk when they don't get they own way.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:39 pm

burnleymik wrote:You are misrepresenting us.

i'm not misrepresenting anything. two posts above mine was someone who supports brexit saying they aren't risking anything. its a pretty typical attitude you tend to find with brexiteers. you only need to look at the people in government who support it. lots of 'normal' people are risking things. people's livelihoods and businesses are at stake. especially in places like burnley which will be hit hardest, whatever type of brexit we end up with.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:40 pm

burnleymik wrote:Okay on the flip side, what about the people who don't trade with the EU, but are forced to adhere to their standards and legislation and all the extra money and time that costs them? Is that just a case of "sod them" for you?

But we already know how it works for them. They have been operating in that business environment for years.

Their costs and pricing reflect the current rules and regulations.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:57 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:he bares all the traits of an existing banned poster or one using multiple profiles.

Does he? Who? I can't see the similarities in the structure of his sentences and phraseology that leads me to believe he's a regular contributor to the brexit/political threads.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:01 pm

burnleymik wrote:Maybe this can explain why only one side is receiving any scrutiny...

electoral.jpg

So by my reckoning that’s five pro-EU and five not (I assume they’re not as they’ve not been marked pro-EU). Seems pretty balanced to me.

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 pm

The real question is: how long until basil6345789 suggests Tim Martin should be the next PM?

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:18 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You been consulting your golf club again to judge the mood of the country on Brexit again?

Lancs, being disingenuous is halfway to losing the argument. You know full well that the golf club Tory types that you mock, the “Singapore-On-Sea” aspirants like Dan Hannan, don’t care a jot about freedom of movement. They would be very happy with the EEA option and would still get their cheap labour.

The mood I referred to is the working class (mainly) northern, rural and coastal areas where they are desparate for an end to mass migration, have had it promised, and now see backtracking. Plenty of these had switched to Tory from UKIP or Labour (there are some core Tories too I agree). I’d be happy with EEA myself on a selfish level (though the CU is madness, which may get voted back in tonight) but feel we need to give these communities what they voted for and what has since been promised.

(To be fair though, the EEA is a ragtag group of small countries needing to mainly protect their fishing rights. We are huge by comparison, have much broader issues, thus need a bespoke arrangement if we were to get into the specifics).

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:19 pm

Spijed wrote:So you'd be happy to risk losing your home, job, basically everything just for that?

If we stayed in the EU would it mean that no-one loses their home or their job? That's a big claim.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:21 pm

1fatclaret wrote:1.9% (that's the difference between a winning and a losing result). Hardly a conclusive and empowering mandate.

It's a novel approach, and quite useful to make the majority seem less than it was. In a general election, if one candidate gets 25,000 votes and the other gets 24,000, has he got a majority of 500?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:22 pm

dsr wrote:If we stayed in the EU would it mean that no-one loses their home or their job? That's a big claim.

I suppose it's better the Devil you know!

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:24 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:i'm not misrepresenting anything. two posts above mine was someone who supports brexit saying they aren't risking anything. its a pretty typical attitude you tend to find with brexiteers. you only need to look at the people in government who support it. lots of 'normal' people are risking things. people's livelihoods and businesses are at stake. especially in places like burnley which will be hit hardest, whatever type of brexit we end up with.

If you really believe it is a risk for ordinary people you need to look more closely at stagnating GDP per capita (or real terms wages / disposable income after housing costs) over the last 10 years since mass migration started. Looking at it more closely broken down by sector is even more revealing. Then look at equivalent figures for other major world nations during this (supposed) boom.

Some people are change averse / risk averse, I accept that, and wouldn’t mock it. But others are more entrepreneurial in mindset, that shouldn’t be mocked either. It is all about risk / reward, cost / benefit. There are trade offs whichever option is taken, including remaining.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:34 pm

dsr wrote:It's a novel approach, and quite useful to make the majority seem less than it was. In a general election, if one candidate gets 25,000 votes and the other gets 24,000, has he got a majority of 500?

It's also a disingenuous approach from the remain side, vote leave won by over 1.25million votes, that is an extremely significant number, even though they try to portray it as otherwise.