Benefit system to get a 10.1% pay increase

[JohnMcGreal]

Pensions account for around about 40 per cent of the welfare budget.

Yep. You're right. My post was poorly worded and should have said pensions account for the largest item of the welfare budget.

[Jakubclaret]

So these ‘high earners’ you referenced in your original post are going to university, getting a good class of degree then spending years working in Sainsbury’s before their degree finally gets them the high paid job the degree merits. Yeah ok.

I don't think I'm making myself clear enough or you are misunderstanding me, I'm saying after university the students are necessarily going to get a high end job, even with the right qualifications some will some won't, it's not guaranteed that's why the 26k is really an unachievable trigger point for some because some won't be earning that much unless lucky breaks occur or the job targeted isn't in demand free from competition.

[Nori1958]

Christ almighty, stop being a parody for a second and get in the real world

So I didn't pay 18% and survived?
I haven't a clue what a parody is, I can only tell the truth, we cut our cloth accordingly, something people seem to struggle with now

[taio]

I don't think I'm making myself clear

No sh1t.

[boatshed bill]

So these ‘high earners’ you referenced in your original post are going to university, getting a good class of degree then spending years working in Sainsbury’s before their degree finally gets them the high paid job the degree merits. Yeah ok.

I think they are sending a ridiculous number of students to what they now call universities.
They need a degree just to get a reasonable job these days.

[Nori1958]

Nori have you had a state pension forecast lately. I know some pensioners who retire early find out they need a few post 2016 qualifying years to get full SP, especially if they contracted out

I get a full state pension in a couple of years

Had a lovely government pension for 14 years, plus a lump sum 14 yrs ago

[martin_p]

I don't think I'm making myself clear enough or you are misunderstanding me, I'm saying after university the students are necessarily going to get a high end job, even with the right qualifications some will some won't, it's not guaranteed that's why the 26k is really an unachievable trigger point for some because some won't be earning that much unless lucky breaks occur or the job targeted isn't in demand free from competition.

If by ‘not making myself clear’ you mean ‘this point was totally absent from my original post but I’m struggling a bit so I’m having to change my argument’ then you’re right.

[CoolClaret]

So I didn't pay 18% and survived?
I haven't a clue what a parody is, I can only tell the truth, we cut our cloth accordingly, something people seem to struggle with now

Paying 18% mortgage on something 2-4 x a yearly salary is vastly different than paying 10% on something over x the yearly salary mate

[Jakubclaret]

If by ‘not making myself clear’ you mean ‘this point was totally absent from my original post but I’m struggling a bit so I’m having to change my argument’ then you’re right.

I'm pointing out that all the students are guaranteed decent jobs despite passing, BB probably explains better than I did or could of.

[boatshed bill]

I'm pointing out that all the students are guaranteed decent jobs despite passing, BB probably explains better than I did or could of.

I think you have made a slight error there. Not all students are guaranteed decent jobs.
And have you seen some of the degree courses?

[martin_p]

I'm pointing out that all the students are guaranteed decent jobs despite passing, BB probably explains better than I did or could of.

Perhaps you can ask him to run circles round me.

[Jakubclaret]

Perhaps you can ask him to run circles round me.

I think the only thing that's going around in circles right now is the debate between us & on that note I'll wish you goodnight.. I will maintain my original view as you probably will so it's futile we will never clearly agree.

[Nori1958]

Paying 18% mortgage on something 2-4 x a yearly salary is vastly different than paying 10% on something over x the yearly salary mate

Not sure what you meant to say.... Sounds like gooblegook to me.... Anyone I know are not paying 10%, more 6 or 7...we paid 18 on 1 salary... Does that make sense to you

[boatshed bill]

Perhaps you can ask him to run circles round me.

With these clapped out knees? No chance

[CoolClaret]

Not sure what you meant to say.... Sounds like gooblegook to me.... Anyone I know are not paying 10%, more 6 or 7...we paid 18 on 1 salary... Does that make sense to you

House prices have risen relative to wages by a stupid amount.

18% in ‘81 is a lot more manageable than what will happen if house prices continue to rise whilst wages stagnate (relatively).

There’s nothing else to be said- things are getting worse/harder when they should (in theory) be getting easier and people like you just can’t seem to accept it and revert to type (like a parody) and come up with the ‘it was hard back in my day’ guff.

After the Second World War the country rightfully headed in an upward trajectory but it’s reverting now and we’re going the other way, if we keep continuing then the consequences will be disastrous

[Nori1958]

House prices have risen relative to wages by a stupid amount.

18% in ‘81 is a lot more manageable than what will happen if house prices continue to rise whilst wages stagnate (relatively).

There’s nothing else to be said- things are getting worse/harder when they should (in theory) be getting easier and people like you just can’t seem to accept it and revert to type (like a parody) and come up with the ‘it was hard back in my day’ guff.

After the Second World War the country rightfully headed in an upward trajectory but it’s reverting now and we’re going the other way, if we keep continuing then the consequences will be disastrous

Absolute rubbish..... 18% in 1981 was bloody difficult, but we managed, it's not guff as you suggest, perhaps as you grow up, you'll realise some generations had it worse than it is now.... But we got through it... Didn't moan like you soft arses nowadays

[CoolClaret]

Absolute rubbish..... 18% in 1981 was bloody difficult, but we managed, it's not guff as you suggest, perhaps as you grow up, you'll realise some generations had it worse than it is now.... But we got through it... Didn't moan like you soft arses nowadays

Of course it’s guff.

House ownership is decreasing and the price relative to wages is increasing.

In 1981 house prices weren’t as high as they are now relative to wages.

Get in the real world

[Swizzlestick]

Absolute rubbish..... 18% in 1981 was bloody difficult, but we managed, it's not guff as you suggest, perhaps as you grow up, you'll realise some generations had it worse than it is now.... But we got through it... Didn't moan like you soft arses nowadays

You ‘got through it’ because you paid a relative pittance for your house. I see you’ve liked to big yourself up a bit in this thread, put yourself on a pedestal while sneering at this generation. The reality is you had it handed on a plate to you and your attitude toward future generations is, frankly, immensely selfish.

[CoolClaret]

You ‘got through it’ because you paid a relative pittance for your house. I see you’ve liked to big yourself up a bit in this thread, put yourself on a pedestal while sneering at this generation. The reality is you had it handed on a plate to you and your attitude toward future generations is, frankly, immensely selfish.

Bingo

[Nori1958]

Of course it’s guff.

House ownership is decreasing and the price relative to wages is increasing.

In 1981 house prices weren’t as high as they are now relative to wages.

Get in the real world

Guff..... We really really struggled to meet those monthly payments.... Long before paying for sky, amazon, broadband or whatever your monthly outgoings are now

[clarethomer]

Average 1980 house price was £25k house with a £18750 mortgage (25% deposit) - Assuming 95% mortgages werent a thing back then as those were the days you had to be nice to your bank manager and prove you could save before you would get a loan.

The average salary was around £6k back then from a 30 second google and the loan rate was 18%. Assume people took it for 25 years as the norm as they do today.

The cost of the repayment amount based on the above figures would have been £265 a month roughly. £6k a year is £400 a month after you deduct tax/NI.

You can see that the cost of the loan in comparison to take home pay is going to be about 2/3rds of take home.

Average salary in UK today is £29,600 from a quick google. A take home pay of £1950 a month and whilst it would be impossible to borrow this on this salary - a 95% mortgage on the average house price of £295k works out about £1300 a month on a 2.5% interest rate.

This is about 2/3rds of take home.

So the reality of the situation is that lower interest rates and higher house prices have broadly seen a similar relationship of a mortgage payment, in the comparison above, to take home pay on the average house and average salary.

The difference of now is that rates are going up rather than being at the peak of their costs.

Worrying times for people that have overstretched, or had a change in circumstances and are at the limits financially before all this other crap comes their way.

It's not a discussion that I think adds any value to say which generation has benefitted because both have had challenges. More recently a more relaxed approach to lending and lower deposits v previous lower cost houses in comparison to average salary (4 x average single person salary in the example above to 10 x single salary today).

[Nori1958]

You ‘got through it’ because you paid a relative pittance for your house. I see you’ve liked to big yourself up a bit in this thread, put yourself on a pedestal while sneering at this generation. The reality is you had it handed on a plate to you and your attitude toward future generations is, frankly, immensely selfish.

Pittance
most of my posts are sarcastic, but it takes brains to see that

Absolutely nothing has been handed to me on a plate, that is so offensive you wouldn't believe

You've no idea how much I've helped people struggling now.... Do me a favour....... Off

[CoolClaret]

Guff..... We really really struggled to meet those monthly payments.... Long before paying for sky, amazon, broadband or whatever your monthly outgoings are now

Heaven forbid the average Joe has an internet connection in 2022 right?

Taking away these absolute peak boomer takes, is exactly why (current) ‘conservative’ economics is dead in the water.

They blame people for spending instead of saving, yet are the supposed saviours of the economy (that they tanked).

How can one have an economy if everyone is saving? Do you like having restaurants and pubs/bars?… cause they’ll be the first to go

[boatshed bill]

Around 1981 the mortgage rate was indeed around 18%
The average house price was around £21,000.
It was possible to buy a house for under £10,000

[Nori1958]

Average 1980 house price was £25k house with a £18750 mortgage (25% deposit) - Assuming 95% mortgages werent a thing back then as those were the days you had to be nice to your bank manager and prove you could save before you would get a loan.

The average salary was around £6k back then from a 30 second google and the loan rate was 18%. Assume people took it for 25 years as the norm as they do today.

The cost of the repayment amount based on the above figures would have been £265 a month roughly. £6k a year is £400 a month after you deduct tax/NI.

You can see that the cost of the loan in comparison to take home pay is going to be about 2/3rds of take home.

Average salary in UK today is £29,600 from a quick google. A take home pay of £1950 a month and whilst it would be impossible to borrow this on this salary - a 95% mortgage on the average house price of £295k works out about £1300 a month on a 2.5% interest rate.

This is about 2/3rds of take home.

So the reality of the situation is that lower interest rates and higher house prices have broadly seen a similar relationship of a mortgage payment, in the comparison above, to take home pay on the average house and average salary.

The difference of now is that rates are going up rather than being at the peak of their costs.

Worrying times for people that have overstretched, or had a change in circumstances and are at the limits financially before all this other crap comes their way.

It's not a discussion that I think adds any value to say which generation has benefitted because both have had challenges. More recently a more relaxed approach to lending and lower deposits v previous lower cost houses in comparison to average salary (4 x average single person salary in the example above to 10 x single salary today).

Our house price in 81 was below the average..... But still struggled..... My point is we didn't moan about it.....

[Nori1958]

Around 1981 the mortgage rate was indeed around 18%
The average house price was around £21,000.
It was possible to buy a house for under £10,000

I know what it was..... Ours was £20,000

[CoolClaret]

Our house price in 81 was below the average..... But still struggled..... My point is we didn't moan about it.....

The point is that they’re going to continue to rise (amongst other assets) over time and the wealthy will buy them over the next year or so at discounted prices because they can and wealth inequality will get worse.

But you won’t care because you’ve got yours so **** everyone else right?

Over 10% Inflation is killing peoples ability to save money, unless they seriously batten down the hatches, work 50+ hour weeks and do nothing in their leisure.

If you just admit you don’t care about the worlds 6th largest economy providing a greater future for its people then fair enough. It’s a **** attitude but you have a right to it

[clarethomer]

Our house price in 81 was below the average..... But still struggled..... My point is we didn't moan about it.....

Not read the whole thread but when it comes to money, it shouldn't be about someone moaning.

It's however important to understand that the challenges of home ownership are just different from the 80s and before to today- not better or worse because it's not comparable in reality.

The challenges historically to name but a few in obtaining finance.

- Higher interest rates
- Less competition in the mortgage market place.
- The need to get your loan through demonstrating good money management where someone would review how you handled money
- Only men could typically borrow money until the law was changed.

However back then you didn't live in the world that was 24/7 on and in your home.

You couldn't get car finance or your takeaways on buy now pay later (yes that's a thing) like today. You wouldnt have had 20 DD's going out of your account each month that could be set up with a click of a button etc.

You didn't have all the full on marketing and promotion which has the sole aim of separating you from your money - coming to you through your phones and tv and computer etc.

You couldn't get something within a matter of minutes or hours just because you fancied something - The friction for spending money and world at that time is not comparable to today.

That isn't to say you couldn't be rubbish with money back then because you could quite easily but what we have to deal with today is just different and it's important that the conversation shouldn't be about blaming the generations or comparing the generations but understanding that everyone has had challenges - even if they are different ones.

[clarethomer]

The point is that they’re going to continue to rise (amongst other assets) over time and the wealthy will buy them over the next year or so at discounted prices because they can and wealth inequality will get worse.

But you won’t care because you’ve got yours so **** everyone else right?

Over 10% Inflation is killing peoples ability to save money, unless they seriously batten down the hatches, work 50+ hour weeks and do nothing in their leisure.

If you just admit you don’t care about the worlds 6th largest economy providing a greater future for its people then fair enough. It’s a **** attitude but you have a right to it

Whilst you are right to be concerned with inflation and the ability to save.

Today's priorities are different and the challenges to retain the money you have is different but don't be so easily dismissive of this being an equal challenge to those who bought when house prices were much lower.

Inflation rates have a direct correlation to interest rates so the 10% you are seeing today is still lower than the peaks seen in the late 70's and early 80's.

Its going to be **** for a while for most people but I think for those i speak to who went through the late 70's and 80's and the winter of discontent, they have perspective that we will come through it.

[Nori1958]

Not read the whole thread but when it comes to money, it shouldn't be about someone moaning.

It's however important to understand that the challenges of home ownership are just different from the 80s and before to today- not better or worse because it's not comparable in reality.

The challenges historically to name but a few in obtaining finance.

- Higher interest rates
- Less competition in the mortgage market place.
- The need to get your loan through demonstrating good money management where someone would review how you handled money
- Only men could typically borrow money until the law was changed.

However back then you didn't live in the world that was 24/7 on and in your home.

You couldn't get car finance or your takeaways on buy now pay later (yes that's a thing) like today. You wouldnt have had 20 DD's going out of your account each month that could be set up with a click of a button etc.

You didn't have all the full on marketing and promotion which has the sole aim of separating you from your money - coming to you through your phones and tv and computer etc.

You couldn't get something within a matter of minutes or hours just because you fancied something - The friction for spending money and world at that time is not comparable to today.

That isn't to say you couldn't be rubbish with money back then because you could quite easily but what we have to deal with today is just different and it's important that the conversation shouldn't be about blaming the generations or comparing the generations but understanding that everyone has had challenges - even if they are different ones.

I agree with most of what you say... We didn't take into account my wife's salary ( more than mine) because she finished work to bring up our children, something that seems strange to parents today
As things eased we bought cars on finance, but made sure we could pay for it... Eventually rates came down, not as low as they are now... But hey
I've spent thousands of pounds helping others through the current crisis yet people on here, who know eff all about me want to have a go...... Go on... Give it your best, you won't win... The self confessed expert.. Lancasterclaret.... Refuses to engage because he uses fancy words but doesn't actually know what they mean

[Jakubclaret]

Absolute rubbish..... 18% in 1981 was bloody difficult, but we managed, it's not guff as you suggest, perhaps as you grow up, you'll realise some generations had it worse than it is now.... But we got through it... Didn't moan like you soft arses nowadays

I completely agree with lots you say & I think alot of negative comments stem from jealousy ******** to different circumstances in different era's just perhaps 1 generation had their head screwed on & another didn't plain & simple, the resentment is 1 generation was far more advanced in terms of common sense.

[Nori1958]

I completely agree with lots you say & I think alot of negative comments stem from jealousy ******** to different circumstances in different era's just perhaps 1 generation had their head screwed on & another didn't plain & simple, the resentment is 1 generation was far more advanced in terms of common sense.

It might be jealousy, and in 40 yrs time those moaning now will probably be in the same position I am now

They just haven't the brains to see past next wek

[clarethomer]

It might be jealousy, and in 40 yrs time those moaning now will probably be in the same position I am now

They just haven't the brains to see past next wek

That is the crux of it.

Perspective and experience.

However if you don't have either of these things because you can't see the wood from the trees, I can understand why it can be difficult to appreciate that with the benefit of time, things will get better.

You shouldn't have to explain what you have done for others but its why when on a plane you put your own mask on first - so you can help others afterwards.

[Swizzlestick]

Won’t speak for anybody else, but for me, I take people as I find them, so I’ll judge you how you present yourself on here - as a self satisfied, quite bitter, rude, moaner (ironically, for somebody who rails against such a trait). You may have helped people, who knows, but you have an obnoxiousness that presents itself frequently on this forum and it doesn’t do you any favours, whatever your grand gestures may be.

EDIT - this is for Grum…sorry, “Nori”, just to clarify.

[Swizzlestick]

I completely agree with lots you say & I think alot of negative comments stem from jealousy ******** to different circumstances in different era's just perhaps 1 generation had their head screwed on & another didn't plain & simple, the resentment is 1 generation was far more advanced in terms of common sense.

I rest my case. The court jester has just confirmed my suspicions. This is the arrogance we’re dealing with.

[Big Vinny K]

They just haven't the brains to see past next wek

What about next munth ?

[dsr]

Because the rich will buy all the assets in the country (because they are the only ones that can) and in 20 years the middle class will be eroded and there will be rich and poor.

On our current trajectory, the average house price will probably be 10-20x the yearly salary.

It’s not sustainable, this neo-liberal end game is like frigginf feudalism

The reason house prices are increasing is because people can afford to pay the higher prices. If people can no longer afford to pay higher prices, then prices will drop, not rise.

And the rich won't want to buy all the houses if they can't sell them on. The prime reason for buy-to-let is generally so that the rent received will cover the mortgage, and the profit is on the increase in the value of the property.

[CoolClaret]

The reason house prices are increasing is because people can afford to pay the higher prices. If people can no longer afford to pay higher prices, then prices will drop, not rise.

And the rich won't want to buy all the houses if they can't sell them on. The prime reason for buy-to-let is generally so that the rent received will cover the mortgage, and the profit is on the increase in the value of the property.

That’s the theory but it’s not happening, they continue to rise and rise.

By ‘rich’ I don’t just mean wealthy individuals- it’s more than that. Capital funds etc

Look at the link I shared with Zlatan, read about Gary Stevenson’s history - he made money as a Citigroup trader hedging betting on growing inequality

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... a-disaster

Best advice he has been given “Throw your textbooks in the bin if you want to really learn about economics.”

The same textbooks that have us taught that trickle down economics and austerity works - it just doesn’t. We’ve had 12 years of empirical real data on this and it just flat out does not work

[CombatClaret]

Guff..... We really really struggled to meet those monthly payments.... Long before paying for sky, amazon, broadband or whatever your monthly outgoings are now

The truth is people like Nori did work hard, they played by the rules at the time.
BUT the rules have changed and the game is harder now, but if you tell them that they feel like it cheapens their hard work.

Both things can be true. You did work hard and were thrifty, well done, but it's also true it's harder for people today to do what you did then with current circumstances.

[dsr]

That’s the theory but it’s not happening, they continue to rise and rise.

By ‘rich’ I don’t just mean wealthy individuals- it’s more than that. Capital funds etc

Look at the link I shared with Zlatan, read about Gary Stevenson’s history - he made money as a Citigroup trader hedging betting on growing inequality

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... a-disaster

Best advice he has been given “Throw your textbooks in the bin if you want to really learn about economics.”

The same textbooks that have us taught that trickle down economics and austerity works - it just doesn’t. We’ve had 12 years of empirical real data on this and it just flat out does not work

And yet the predictions are that living standards are going to drop to what they were 8 years ago. Which obviously means that living standards have risen over the past 8 years.

We are all (or virtually all) vastly richer than any time in history. Something is clearly working.

[CoolClaret]

And yet the predictions are that living standards are going to drop to what they were 8 years ago. Which obviously means that living standards have risen over the past 8 years.

We are all (or virtually all) vastly richer than any time in history. Something is clearly working.

House ownership has dropped since the mid 2000s.

The pound has dropped significantly.

Things are going backwards, a staggering amount of the population are in debt.

I don’t know how you can’t see that

[CombatClaret]

Won’t speak for anybody else, but for me, I take people as I find them, so I’ll judge you how you present yourself on here - as a self satisfied, quite bitter, rude, moaner (ironically, for somebody who rails against such a trait). You may have helped people, who knows, but you have an obnoxiousness that presents itself frequently on this forum and it doesn’t do you any favours, whatever your grand gestures may be.

I think at this point it's deliberate trolling, given the complete lack of insightful conversation or debate and the now constant stream of antagonising and comments designed to goad.

[dsr]

House ownership has dropped since the mid 2000s.

The pound has dropped significantly.

Things are going backwards, a staggering amount of the population are in debt.

I don’t know how you can’t see that

I agree debt's a problem. Could it be made harder for people who can't afford debt, to get it? Credit cards for example have a good use if they're paid off each month, but quickly become a nightmare if they aren't.

The fall in the pound isn't a big deal IMO. Certainly it can be ignored in comparing living standards over the years, because it's already factored in.

I wonder how much of the fall in percentage of home ownership is because of demographics? The population has gone up close to 20% in the last 20 years or so, and in pure numbers there are more homeowners now than there were then. At least some of the fall in the percentage figure, I dare say, might be because transient workers and new immigrants have different house ownership patterns from people who were born here.

[Zlatan]

Not sure what you meant to say.... Sounds like gooblegook to me.... Anyone I know are not paying 10%, more 6 or 7...we paid 18 on 1 salary... Does that make sense to you

The point is that the if the interest rate of 18% on a house only worth 4x your salary increases by 2% that increase as a proportion of your income is vastly smaller compared to a 2% increase on a rate of 3% where the house is 20x your salary. It’s not a fair comparison.

For example my house is worth £400k, I have mortgage remaining of £200k and a current mortgage rate of 2.02%. I have been lucky and managed to get a fixed rate for 10 years at 2.99% (4months ago) which does increase my outgoings by about £100/month. If I try to get a fixed rate for 10 years now the rates are closer to 4.5% - and I calculated for me that an increase of 0.5% in interest rate equates to about an extra £50/month outgoings - so that’s about £250/month additional outgoings (350/month compared to previous rate of 2.02%). So these days an increase of just 1% on the rates can massively impact on household finances.

I’ll happily do a spreadsheet for your 18% rate if you like, but I’d need to know the accurate house value and your wage to be fair. I can guarantee that the impact on your monthly finances would be lower than it is now

[Zlatan]

Absolute rubbish..... 18% in 1981 was bloody difficult, but we managed, it's not guff as you suggest, perhaps as you grow up, you'll realise some generations had it worse than it is now.... But we got through it... Didn't moan like you soft arses nowadays

I bet you did moan, like my parents did, but we didn’t have the internet to share the moans back then so people didn’t know you were moaning

[fatboy47]

We are all (or virtually all) vastly richer than any time in history. Something is clearly working.

Have we a food-bank queue denier here?


Some of us, thank heaven, can see beyond looking purely at the contents of our wallets to formulate a view as to the strength and moral justification of our society.

[Zlatan]

Around 1981 the mortgage rate was indeed around 18%
The average house price was around £21,000.
It was possible to buy a house for under £10,000

I recall when I first moved to Burnley that I could buy a house on my credit card for about £5k - that was in 1990’s - we ended up spending a fortune on a house for about £50k because the lady wanted somewhere nice to live

[Nori1958]

The point is that the if the interest rate of 18% on a house only worth 4x your salary increases by 2% that increase as a proportion of your income is vastly smaller compared to a 2% increase on a rate of 3% where the house is 20x your salary. It’s not a fair comparison.

For example my house is worth £400k, I have mortgage remaining of £200k and a current mortgage rate of 2.02%. I have been lucky and managed to get a fixed rate for 10 years at 2.99% (4months ago) which does increase my outgoings by about £100/month. If I try to get a fixed rate for 10 years now the rates are closer to 4.5% - and I calculated for me that an increase of 0.5% in interest rate equates to about an extra £50/month outgoings - so that’s about £250/month additional outgoings (350/month compared to previous rate of 2.02%). So these days an increase of just 1% on the rates can massively impact on household finances.

I’ll happily do a spreadsheet for your 18% rate if you like, but I’d need to know the accurate house value and your wage to be fair. I can guarantee that the impact on your monthly finances would be lower than it is now

To be fair, I couldn't tell you the exact wage... The bottom line is we had very little, if any, disposable income left after paying the bills, same as people are complaining a out now, the figures might be different, but the outcome is the same

[taio]

I recall when I first moved to Burnley that I could buy a house on my credit card for about £5k - that was in 1990’s - we ended up spending a fortune on a house for about £50k because the lady wanted somewhere nice to live

£5k in the 90s would have bought you an inhabitable and derelict house.

[Nori1958]

I bet you did moan, like my parents did, but we didn’t have the internet to share the moans back then so people didn’t know you were moaning

I might be looking back through Rose tinted glasses, but I don't remember my parents moaning.. Unless the outside loo froze over