Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:37 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:I'll be voting "Leave" next time.

The UK is an embarrassment.

Well if you want to blame anyone for that then I suggest you blame the people who voted for them.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:41 am

Damo wrote:Haven't most polls consistently shown that remain would have won the referendum?

No.

Again, the poll that made Cameron bow down to public opinion, was the amount of votes UKIP gained at the GE. It had nothing to do with yougov

1) That's still polling. But much more importantly 2) If you don't think Conservatives did polling to see how many of those Kippers would vote for them if they supported a referendum then you're dumb as ****.

This kind of nonsense, along with calling everyone you disagree with an "alt-right nazi" just highlights what an petulant little child you are.

It's not nonsense, and i don't think everyone who disagrees with me is an "alt-right nazi". That's just a lie you like to spread because you're a liar who can't handle it when someone else ruins your arguments

How do you expect "Brextremists" to be bothered to take part in opinion polls. You and people like you have driven a couple of nails into democracy, with your hysterical reaction to not getting your own way. Should the establishment find a way to work it's way out of leaving the EU, many people like me will feel so apathetic about voting, that they will probably never bother to go out of their way to vote again.
That might sound good to you, being such a short sighted, bubble dweller. But to politicians, its terrifying.

Dismiss people like me all you want. That's exactly what got you into a situation where you in particular, looked really stupid following every major vote in the last 5 or so years

Cry more.

Even if Leave voters were less likely to participate in polling that can still be accounted for in the polling by weighting the results appropriately. For example, if 10000 people surveyed yields 60% Remain voters and 40% Leave voters, you can use that knowledge to weight the results because you know that the overall population split was 52/48, and because one of your questions was "How did you vote in the EU Referendum?" you can even show the rate at which Remain and Leave voters are changing their mind.

So, as the playbook calls you, you're an "ignorant dipshit". But at least you didn't just post a "short, quippy, and wrong" post, you also actually attempted to explain your thinking which is the only reason you're getting this detailed response.

Stop making dumb assumptions of how polling works. Or don't and continue to be "fiercely anti-intellectual".

I just wish you put as much effort into understanding the facts as you do in trying to defend your factually incorrect assumptions. But I suppose if you did you'd be at risk of finding out just how many of them are bullshit.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:43 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:There are a number of Peers/MP's who own chunks of land with farms on them.
Said farms receive EU subsidies.

Pretty sure Peers get a pension pot via the EU, but I'll need to double check that one.

I'm sure with some more digging other stuff would appear out of the woodwork so to speak.

Most of the landowners you refer to are peers rather than MPs and the question was about MPs. A quick google of MP landowners throws up the names Richard Drax and Matt Ridley, both Tory MPs. Drax has been loyal to the government across all the Brexit votes, meaning he’s happy to leave the EU under May’s deal and Ridley is a ‘no deal’ Brexiteer, supporting leaving without a deal in an article in the Times. Neither of these seem to be the democracy usurping traitors protecting their EU subsidies.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:49 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Prior to the referendum the polls suggested remain would win, that worked out well.

Here’s a link showing that during the campaign various polls showed both Leave and Remain in the lead.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion ... referendum

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:58 am

summitclaret wrote:JRM now saying he will reluctantly back May's deal. However the DUP still saying no. In order to avoid getting blamed for losing brexit (CU/SM is not brexit) The ERG are going to have to back her deal. Even if the DUP vote against or abstain, there might be enough Labour leave votes to just get the deal through.

If her deal passes without DUP support they may pull the c and s agreement. My guess is that they won't until May goes in a few weeks as avoiding Corbyn in charge will be important to them.

There’s a hard core ERG element of about 20-30 MPs who won’t support May’s deal even if JRM does switch. That’s about the number of Tory MPs who revolted last night and the government lost even with DUP and some a Labour support.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:14 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:How do those major decisions affect the pound in the pocket of our basic rate taxpayers? Specifically?

As pointed about above, much of our infrastructure and business is now overseas owned, so money must flow overseas by definition and decisions are being made by those without the interests of the U.K. foremost. We have flatlining wages below inflation (until this year). House prices are unaffordable. Many jobs are unattractive, especially zero hours ones.

So, pray tell, how has being involved in those major decisions for the last 10 years helped us?

You ask how being in control of decisions is important, and how it affects the pound in the pocket of the ordinary person, and then provide examples of how not taking control and making decisions negatively affects us.

The UK government created the climate whereby huge chunks of our economy is foreign owned. We privatised our own railways and utilities, which now overcharge UK customers, provide poor service, and arguably don't work in the interests of the country. Other EU countries didn't do this. The UK government provided the labour climate in which zero hours contracts are tolerated. Germany doesn't allow them, and nor does France, Hungary, Italy, and most of the rest of the EU. It is our government that has allowed major industry such as steel to become foreign owned, and then closed down. Do you think the French, Swedes or Germans would be so relaxed about this? The same goes for property ownership. We have a housing crisis in this country, and yet £100 Billion of property is owned by people overseas. These things are as they are because we have a government unwilling to take control and make a decision to interfere in a market when it's not working very well.

As for making decisions at an EU level - if we're not there at the top table, who else is going to ensure our interests are considered when the EU makes decisions?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:16 am

AndrewJB wrote:As for making decisions at an EU level - if we're not there at the top table, who else is going to ensure our interests are considered when the EU makes decisions?

Which is why May's deal is so abysmal.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:21 am

I think May's strategy is still working toward the 'my deal or no deal or no Brexit' option. If this was the case on April 11th then imo she would get her deal through.

This scenario might seem unlikely at the moment, but, if the indicative votes process doesn't result in a clear way forward then maybe this is still her best chance of 'success'.

I'm not saying that I support this strategy I'm just trying to predict what might happen.

TonbridgeClaret · Post by **TonbridgeClaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:24 am

martin_p wrote:Here’s a link showing that during the campaign various polls showed both Leave and Remain in the lead.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion ... referendum

The 'poll of polls' section in your link shows results from 7 different organisations. One shows polling level at 44% the other six all show remain as winning, with leads varying from 0.5% to 4%. So the post saying
'Prior to the referendum the polls suggested remain would win, that worked out well.' Is fairly accurate.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:27 am

TonbridgeClaret wrote:The 'poll of polls' section in your link shows results from 7 different organisations. One shows polling level at 44% the other six all show remain as winning, with leads varying from 0.5% to 4%. So the post saying
'Prior to the referendum the polls suggested remain would win, that worked out well.' Is fairly accurate.

All the polls were prior to the referendum, you can’t pick and choose the ones you want to include.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:29 am

Unless the tories whip the indicative votes it will end up in a very soft brexit and one that would be pointless. What would be the point in still paying a fortune in for bugger all change?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:34 am

It'll be interesting to see what the upshot of these indicative votes will be.

I suspect that there'll be nothing conclusive. No deal and second referendum (depending on phrasing) will probably come fairly low but I can't see there being any outright favourite.

The question will be how they then use those votes to give them a way forward. I wouldn't be at all surprised if May pressed forward with her deal and the ERG go for it realising that No Deal is never going to happen. I'm not sure if that will be enough to push it through without the DUP though (although there may be a few more million on the magic money tree plus a seat at the negotiation for them which is viewed as too good to turn down).

If that doesn't go through then it's hard to see which way to go. If Parliament is deadlocked then I'd say there's an argument for it going back to the people as someone has to make a decision and Parliament isn't capable of it.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:35 am

summitclaret wrote:What would be the point in still paying a fortune in for bugger all change?

I asked this question about two and a half years ago.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:35 am

martin_p wrote:Whether you take part in polls or not Damo, pollsters such as YouGov will make sure they have a representative sample of people who voted Leave, Remain or didn’t vote at all. So no need to be worried about it being skewed. If you look across polling organisations the trend has been for a Remain majority since about September 2017.

No, they ask anyone who is signed up to yougov and publish any answer they get. With no way of establishing if the person answering is telling the truth or not

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:37 am

Damo wrote:No, they ask anyone who is signed up to yougov and publish any answer they get. With no way of establishing if the person answering is telling the truth or not

Well clearly polls are predicated on people telling the truth. Are you saying Leavers are too embarrassed to tell the truth?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:38 am

TonbridgeClaret wrote:The 'poll of polls' section in your link shows results from 7 different organisations. One shows polling level at 44% the other six all show remain as winning, with leads varying from 0.5% to 4%. So the post saying
'Prior to the referendum the polls suggested remain would win, that worked out well.' Is fairly accurate.

The history of the polling shows that there are periods where there are strings of poll showing us leaning Remain, and before that a string of polls showing us as leaving Leave. There's absolutely no reason to believe that the referendum result didn't occur at a point where we because to lean Leave again. And when you look at the polling immediately after the referendum showing a string of polling that says we lean Leave in the months after the referendum then that would support the idea that the polling methodology is adequately measuring public opening within an acceptable margin of error.

The people who look at a small number of poll results in such a narrowly divided and smugly say "that worked out well" when the result is not exactly what the poll "predicted".

It is especially stupid when you consider that polling informed Farage's mates accurately enough that Leave was going to win to allow them to earn millions. And not only that by i remember pundits on the BBC talking very early on about how the results in Sunderland spelled bad news for Remain, and they knew this because polling told them that places such as Sunderland were bellwethers.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:39 am

martin_p wrote:Well clearly polls are predicated on people telling the truth. Are you saying Leavers are too embarrassed to tell the truth?

Maybe he's saying that Leavers are more likely to tell lies.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:49 am

martin_p wrote:Well clearly polls are predicated on people telling the truth. Are you saying Leavers are too embarrassed to tell the truth?

Yes. When the self-appointed "elite" are continually telling the world that voting Remain is the moral and clever thing to do and voting Leave is a sign of degeneracy, stupidity, and racism, people are embarrassed to tell pollsters what they really think. It's the same reason as why the US presidential polls consistently showed Trump losing - because telling people that they are thick and racist may stop them from telling strangers that they are voting Brexit or Trump, but it won't stop them from voting for Brexit or Trump.

You try it sometime. When talking to someone you don't know, or possibly someone you know quite well, and at some point tell them or imply to them that only a fool could believe a certain something. Quite a few people, even if they disagree, will not say so because they don't think it's worth the argument.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:53 am

A polite enquiry..

I asked a similar question about 6-8 weeks ago, and got an anodyne half-sentence response from one poster.

I will have another go.

It's going to be an interesting week, and at some point in the future we may end up having a second referendum.

These are some of the possible, in fact 'very likely' results if a second count takes place.

All numbers are percentages -

OUT: 52 51 50 49 48.5 48 47.5

IN: 48 49 50 51 51.5 52 52.5

Few would disagree that these are among the most likely outcomes..[in my opinion]

What would/should happen next if any of these results come out, particularly any result around 50:50?

- best of 3..best of 7?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:54 am

I know lots of Brexit supporters very well. They’re more than happy to discuss Brexit and admit they support it.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:55 am

hampsteadclaret wrote:A polite enquiry..

I asked a similar question about 6-8 weeks ago, and got an anodyne half-sentence response from one poster.

I will have another go.

It's going to be an interesting week, and at some point in the future we may end up having a second referendum.

These are some of the possible, in fact 'very likely' results if a second count takes place.

All numbers are percentages -

OUT: 52 51 50 49 48.5 48 47.5

IN: 48 49 50 51 51.5 52 52.5

Few would disagree that these are among the most likely outcomes..[in my opinion]

What would/should happen next if any of these results come out, particularly any result around 50:50?

- best of 3..best of 7?

If Leave win with a defined option then we leave with the defined option. If Remain wins we revoke article 50.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:03 pm

martin_p wrote:Well clearly polls are predicated on people telling the truth. Are you saying Leavers are too embarrassed to tell the truth?

Projecting my argument... straight out of the alt-right handbook.
My point is that it doesn't matter if leavers lie, if they dont bother to answer the questions.
What does matter is how leavers vote in a referendum etc.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:06 pm

Damo wrote:Projecting my argument... straight out of the alt-right handbook.
My point is that it doesn't matter if leavers lie, if they dont bother to answer the questions.
What does matter is how leavers vote in a referendum etc.

Bring on the referendum then!

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:08 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:No.

1) That's still polling. But much more importantly 2) If you don't think Conservatives did polling to see how many of those Kippers would vote for them if they supported a referendum then you're dumb as ****.

It's not nonsense, and i don't think everyone who disagrees with me is an "alt-right nazi". That's just a lie you like to spread because you're a liar who can't handle it when someone else ruins your arguments

Cry more.

Even if Leave voters were less likely to participate in polling that can still be accounted for in the polling by weighting the results appropriately. For example, if 10000 people surveyed yields 60% Remain voters and 40% Leave voters, you can use that knowledge to weight the results because you know that the overall population split was 52/48, and because one of your questions was "How did you vote in the EU Referendum?" you can even show the rate at which Remain and Leave voters are changing their mind.

So, as the playbook calls you, you're an "ignorant dipshit". But at least you didn't just post a "short, quippy, and wrong" post, you also actually attempted to explain your thinking which is the only reason you're getting this detailed response.

Stop making dumb assumptions of how polling works. Or don't and continue to be "fiercely anti-intellectual".

I just wish you put as much effort into understanding the facts as you do in trying to defend your factually incorrect assumptions. But I suppose if you did you'd be at risk of finding out just how many of them are bullshit.

A response straight out of the alt-right handbook.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:08 pm

martin_p wrote:Bring on the referendum then!

There has been one. You must of missed it

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:12 pm

Damo wrote:A response straight out of the alt-right handbook.

Short, quippy and wrong.
Ignoring the argument.
Changing the subject.

And yet you claim to not be "alt-right".

What you're going now by using rhetoric used against you, is literally explained as an alt-right tactic here https://youtu.be/5Luu1Beb8ng?list=PLJA_ ... FtQ&t=1137" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:15 pm

Latest rumours are that May will offer up a date for her resignation in an address to the 1922 committee tomorrow in order to get her deal through (laying bare the lie that it’s the backstop that’s the problem).

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:17 pm

martin_p wrote:Latest rumours are that May will offer up a date for her resignation in an address to the 1922 committee tomorrow in order to get her deal through (laying bare the lie that it’s the backstop that’s the problem).

The party is all that matters.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:18 pm

martin_p wrote:If Leave win with a defined option then we leave with the defined option. If Remain wins we revoke article 50.

I was hoping for a more detailed answer than you have given, bearing in mind the numerical possibilities I outlined above.

So I will have to interpret your comment.

So you are saying that a Leave win in a second referendum with say OUT 49%...REMAIN 51% that the 2% differential would be enough to carry the day?

- that would be enough to WIN ?

In the 2016 Referendum the winning margin was 3.8%.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:21 pm

martin_p wrote:Latest rumours are that May will offer up a date for her resignation in an address to the 1922 committee tomorrow in order to get her deal through (laying bare the lie that it’s the backstop that’s the problem).

You mean Jacob and the rest of the Grand Wizards have no principles and are just career politicians?

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:23 pm

martin_p wrote:Latest rumours are that May will offer up a date for her resignation in an address to the 1922 committee tomorrow in order to get her deal through (laying bare the lie that it’s the backstop that’s the problem).

Rubbish. The backstop is a big problem but not leaving or not leaving in any meaningful way is worse. Anyone that wants to leave properly will not want may and robbins etc in charge of the trade discussions.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:25 pm

Wait a sec?

How come they are allowed to change their minds?

Hampers - make the referendum non-advisory, problem solved.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:27 pm

summitclaret wrote:Rubbish. The backstop is a big problem but not leaving or not leaving in any meaningful way is worse. Anyone that wants to leave properly will not want may and robbins etc in charge of the trade discussions.

But it’s an EU trap we can’t get out of, it doesn’t matter who’s doing the negotiation.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:30 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:I was hoping for a more detailed answer than you have given, bearing in mind the numerical possibilities I outlined above.

So I will have to interpret your comment.

So you are saying that a Leave win in a second referendum with say OUT 49%...REMAIN 51% that the 2% differential would be enough to carry the day?

- that would be enough to WIN ?

In the 2016 Referendum the winning margin was 3.8%.

And because there was no agreed definition of what ‘Leave’ meant we’ve spent nearly three years discussing it and are no nearer knowing. That’s the reason, and the only reason, we need a second referendum. A say on what sort of Leave we want and if we still want it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:34 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:I was hoping for a more detailed answer than you have given, bearing in mind the numerical possibilities I outlined above.

So I will have to interpret your comment.

So you are saying that a Leave win in a second referendum with say OUT 49%...REMAIN 51% that the 2% differential would be enough to carry the day?

- that would be enough to WIN ?

In the 2016 Referendum the winning margin was 3.8%.

This isn't highest aggregate wins. If it was then let's include the result of the first referendum 40 years ago and we win

This is about doing what the public wants, and there's significant reason to believe that what the public wants now is different to what it wanted in June 2016

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:39 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:A polite enquiry..

I asked a similar question about 6-8 weeks ago, and got an anodyne half-sentence response from one poster.

I will have another go.

It's going to be an interesting week, and at some point in the future we may end up having a second referendum.

These are some of the possible, in fact 'very likely' results if a second count takes place.

All numbers are percentages -

OUT: 52 51 50 49 48.5 48 47.5

IN: 48 49 50 51 51.5 52 52.5

Few would disagree that these are among the most likely outcomes..[in my opinion]

What would/should happen next if any of these results come out, particularly any result around 50:50?

- best of 3..best of 7?

I have mentioned this before but if the remainer HOC gets its way then any referendum happens it needs to clear steer to avoid the same remainers blocking Brexit again. It also needs to give us a decent chance in negotiations this time.

So any referendum needs to be something like

Q1 do you want to leave the EU in principle
Yes or no?

Q2 If we are to leave the EU should this be without a deal if it is impossible to agree a deal with the EU in a reasonable timescale ?

Yes or no

Q3 As regards future trade should this be
a. A free trade agreement
b.
c.

a, b and c will need to be clearly worded which is not easy

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:41 pm

martin_p wrote:And because there was no agreed definition of what ‘Leave’ meant we’ve spent nearly three years discussing it and are no nearer knowing. That’s the reason, and the only reason, we need a second referendum. A say on what sort of Leave we want and if we still want it.

Our role in this has already been fulfilled, the definition of leaving is simple it’s just to exit & I know what happens afterwards isn’t that straightforward in terms of the trading relationships moving forwards, surely it’s now upto to them to ensure we get the best possible deal or no deal our input in this should no longer be needed, afterwards internally we probably need a GE but only after we’ve left.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:01 pm

martin_p wrote:If Leave win with a defined option then we leave with the defined option. If Remain wins we revoke article 50.

So if Remain win say by 1%..then we would 'revoke Article 50'..?

Have I got that right?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:03 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:So if Remain win say by 1%..then we would 'revoke Article 50'..?

Have I got that right?

I thought I’d been pretty clear.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:04 pm

martin_p wrote:But it’s an EU trap we can’t get out of, it doesn’t matter who’s doing the negotiation.

If we are to avoid the trap we need to be clear from day one day what we want. The EU will try to run the clock down.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:06 pm

summitclaret wrote:If we are to avoid the trap we need to be clear from day one day what we want. The EU will try to run the clock down.

So is it a trap only the EU can let us out of or not? Because you seem to be changing your mind.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:07 pm

Being reported that the DUP think that a long extension is preferable to May’s deal. That should spell the end for MV3 and therefore May’s deal.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:10 pm

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summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Wait a sec?

How come they are allowed to change their minds?

Hampers - make the referendum non-advisory, problem solved.

You still don't get that. Most of the ERG don't actually want no deal they just wanted strong negotiations. Undermined from day 1 by the likes of blair.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:15 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Wait a sec?

How come they are allowed to change their minds?

Hampers - make the referendum non-advisory, problem solved.

Lancaster - 'make the referendum non-advisory, problem solved'

Hmmm..I doubt it.

So..for you...any second referendum result would be binding, and the end of it ?

I will ask you then..no one has responded to the reasonable statistics above [they didn't do last time I asked either].

What if Remain win by 1% or any other small margin, say 3 and a half-per cent or less, in any second vote?

What exactly would follow from that, please be clear?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:16 pm

summitclaret wrote:You still don't get that. Most of the ERG don't actually want no deal they just wanted strong negotiations. Undermined from day 1 by the likes of blair.

Despite JRM saying that no deal is better than May’s deal?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:16 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:Lancaster - 'make the referendum non-advisory, problem solved'

Hmmm..I doubt it.

So..for you...any second referendum result would be binding, and the end of it ?

I will ask you then..no one has responded to the reasonable statistics above [they didn't do last time I asked either].

What if Remain win by 1% or any other small margin, say 3 and a half-per cent or less, in any second vote?

What exactly would follow from that, please be clear?

I’ve been clear.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:17 pm

martin_p wrote:So is it a trap only the EU can let us out of or not? Because you seem to be changing your mind.

No we push the trade deal and arbitration if needed but we never ever get in the backstop.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:20 pm

summitclaret wrote:No we push the trade deal and arbitration if needed but we never ever get in the backstop.

But the EU have to agree a deal. They can just not agree a deal and take us into the backstop forever. This was the argument. You’ve even argued that revoking article 50 and trying to re-enact it at a later date is a better option than May’s deal because we’d be trapped in the backstop.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:33 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:Lancaster - 'make the referendum non-advisory, problem solved'

Hmmm..I doubt it.

So..for you...any second referendum result would be binding, and the end of it ?

I will ask you then..no one has responded to the reasonable statistics above [they didn't do last time I asked either].

What if Remain win by 1% or any other small margin, say 3 and a half-per cent or less, in any second vote?

What exactly would follow from that, please be clear?

It's academic. On a second referendum, "Leave" will not be an option. It will be "Remain" or "May's deal" (or worse). There will be no option that lets us stop paying vast sums for negligible benefit.