Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:33 pm

So we will go into a GE with Labour for a CU/SM deal with a confirmatory ref. No doubt again being as clear as mud on what that means. So therefore trying to have it both ways.

The tories will presumably go for the current deal, but I would go for wanting a free trade deal with the threat of a managed no deal if the EU won't play ball.

Edit or maybe May will go for a yes or no to her deal with no remain option.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:36 pm

The lack of support for the PMs deal from the DUP is no surprise. Does not supporting it mean voting against it?
There is still abstaining.
On checking Sammy Wilson's position I know he is a leaver, I don't know about the rest and of course the DUP block vote.
Very unclear but if the PMs deal doesn't get through I will blame the Labour MPs who represent constituencies like Burnley with massive leave votes in 2016.
These MPs need to follow Caroline Flints morals, a Labour MP who voted remain but who respects her leave voting constituents and is vocal about it.
And before I am picked upon it I do recognise that morals and politics are like hummus and chips

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:38 pm

They’ve said they will vote against it.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:38 pm

Thing is Elizabeth, is that Caroline Flint won't back a deal that allows Johnson or Gove to be Conservative Party leader.

I honestly have no clue where we are at the moment.

Middle-agedClaret · Post by **Middle-agedClaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:40 pm

Up The Creek...

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:44 pm

2nd ref almost got a majority

Not being funny here, but that and Ken Clarkes Customs Union one got closest.

Thats the way this is going to go.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:44 pm

Well all 8 alternative deals rejected!

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:46 pm

What a farce

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:47 pm

The self preservation society

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:49 pm

Not a farce, always was going to be close.

2nd ref vote got more than the Government vote.

Its coming back for a 2nd ref or a GE.

But a GE with both parties split on Brexit is a waste of time.

My money is on a 2nd ref.

EDIT - compromise vote would be the Clarke one, with a CU, but that would split the Conservative Party.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:54 pm

That is surprising about Caroline Flint and I have to be honest difficult to believe in view of her previous recorded views.
I have had little time to search for the DUP full voting intentions this evening and their votes against the PMs deal is obviously going to make it harder for the final Withdrawal Agreement to be passed. But not impossible.
My conclusion at the end if another eventful day is that the PMs deal is nearer happening and the agitating MPs in Parliament are now mostly on the Labour side

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:56 pm

You are asking Labour MPs to back a very right wing Conservative Government (when May goes)

Hoey will, Stringer will, Mann will, Flint might

That is it.

The rest have other options now, and it shows.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:57 pm

Don’t see how the PM’s deal is nearer happening??

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:58 pm

Think I’ve said this before but an “Informed” Referendum has always been the logical outcome after people slowly began to realise that they had been conned by both sides leading up to the referendum in 2016, add to that Mrs May herself wanted in and there we have it.

But I certainly didn’t think it would be played out over a time wasting and expensive 3 years, disgraceful going ons.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:59 pm

Its not.

Both Customs Union and PV got more votes then her deal has ever managed.

Bercow won't (and he shouldn't) allow it unless there is more evidence that it can pass.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:59 pm

Where have you been all day perm?

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:03 pm

No Lancaster, I'm asking Labour MPs to respect the clear voting intentions of their constituents in the referendum. We are not talking about a 52/48 split in these constituencies but majorities to leave in the mid to high 60s.
Is this such a difficult principle to understand?

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:04 pm

This just shows exactly why the HOC washed its hands of the decision 4 years ago and gave it to the people. There is no consensus in Parliament, there never will be.
It also shows exactly why it shouldnt have been given back to them when leave won the day.

The only mandate the government had was to deliver Brexit. A No Deal Brexit is the only honourable thing to do. Both parties agreed to abide by the referendum, if they are going to do that then they have no options left.
It wont please a lot of people, but as the fiasco of the last 3 months have shown NOTHING is going to please a lot of people.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:06 pm

CombatClaret wrote:A multiple choice question with two answers?
So a flawed referendum where millions of leave voters actually voted for different things based on the dozens of different mutually exclusive options they were told they could have.
People likely expected the things they were told and wanted to believe, but all these things were different.

I'll do you a deal, provide me with the "countless stories or incidents" of people becoming disillusioned with leave & turning to remain as you've claimed & I'll start to take you seriously, similar to greenmile you say things & when questioned to substantiate, hollow replies are forthcoming.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:07 pm

No Lancaster, I'm asking Labour MPs to respect the clear voting intentions of their constituents in the referendum. We are not talking about a 52/48 split in these constituencies but majorities to leave in the mid to high 60s.
Is this such a difficult principle to understand?

You'll have to back that up with some facts Liz.

You are assuming that 17.4 million leave voters voted for "No Deal", or "Mays Deal" (which didn't exist in 2016)

In short, though I get your frustration, its not going to help.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:09 pm

A No Deal Brexit is the only honourable thing to do. Both parties agreed to abide by the referendum, if they are going to do that then they have no options left.
It wont please a lot of people, but as the fiasco of the last 3 months have shown NOTHING is going to please a lot of people.

Been beaten three times in Parliament now, each time by a bigger majority.

There is no mandate for "No Deal".

Time for people like you, who have ignored reality for two years, to finally acknowledge it.

But you won't, it will be another personal attack.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:10 pm

My last contribution today is to repeat my earlier post that Bercow is insignificant when it comes to what the final outcome will be. Although some posters would like to cling on to their fantasy that he will dictate this outcome and don't have the honesty to say they want to see anything that thwarts Brexit.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:12 pm

Roll on that much needed “Informed” Referendum.
Tick tok..

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:15 pm

Elizabeth wrote:My last contribution today is to repeat my earlier post that Bercow is insignificant when it comes to what the final outcome will be. Although some posters would like to cling on to their fantasy that he will dictate this outcome and don't have the honesty to say they want to see anything that thwarts Brexit.

You should see the morons trying to pin blame on Johnny B....

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:17 pm

Long extension a possibility?

Or will that not help either?

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:17 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You'll have to back that up with some facts Liz.

You are assuming that 17.4 million leave voters voted for "No Deal", or "Mays Deal" (which didn't exist in 2016)

In short, though I get your frustration, its not going to help.

They didn't vote for any deal, they just voted to leave. If the type of deal was relevant, then it should have been an issue when politicians on both sides were campaigning prior to the referendum. I dont recall it being mentioned once. It might be frustrating, but politicians bleating after the horse has bolted is pathetic.
I still feel a certain sympathy for TM, she was always in a no win situation, trying to keep everybody happy, but that attempt at conciliation has just buggered the job up. It doesn't look like anyone is going to get what they fully wanted.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:20 pm

No, they didn't

Why you think keep banging on about it as if it makes it anymore true is completely beyond me.

This is reality. This **** show. This what voting for stuff that is impossible to implement gets you.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:23 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:I'll do you a deal, provide me with the "countless stories or incidents" of people becoming disillusioned with leave & turning to remain as you've claimed & I'll start to take you seriously, similar to greenmile you say things & when questioned to substantiate, hollow replies are forthcoming.

Ignore your own words because they do not fit the reality you find yourself in, much like Gove, Boris, JRM etc.
I'll give you one example, as there are countless more out there If you care to look for even a minute.

Vote Leave staffer who would now vote remain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGwz-u5otzk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It was his job to convince the public to vote leave. But now given the facts and reality he chose to ignore and even fight against would vote remain. So you cannot speak as one, there is no 'Will of the People' only the Will of Some People, you can only speak for yourself.

And to remind

Jakubclaret wrote:It's leave with a deal or not, it's a multiple choice question consisting of 2 answer whichever way you look at it

So you admit many, many possible version of Brexit were cooked up into a binary choice and therefor mutually exclusive and un-deliverable.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:23 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:You should see the morons trying to pin blame on Johnny B....

I reckon a lot of them suffer from split personalities

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 pm

I thought it was my last contribution until I read Lancaster's last post in response to my undeniable facts that in many Labour constituencies there were leave majorities in very high figures.
The national majority for leave would have also been significantly higher than 52 /48, if we ignored Scotland. However as we are holding them up in the UK I know we can't. Long live Scottish independence, the sooner the better in my opinion.
How my posts today can be considered as from someone who is frustrated by today's events can only be understood by someone who calls a poster called Elizabeth, 'Liz'
I was always brought up to believe that someone who plays around with another person's name on purpose is someone who has nothing constructive to say

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:They didn't vote for any deal, they just voted to leave. If the type of deal was relevant, then it should have been an issue when politicians on both sides were campaigning prior to the referendum. I dont recall it being mentioned once.

Every type of deal under the sun was offered to the people, there in lies the problem.

Edit: and stop doing a Jakub and speaking for other people. "They", "We" etc.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm

summitclaret wrote:So we will go into a GE with Labour for a CU/SM deal with a confirmatory ref. No doubt again being as clear as mud on what that means. So therefore trying to have it both ways.

The tories will presumably go for the current deal, but I would go for wanting a free trade deal with the threat of a managed no deal if the EU won't play ball.

Edit or maybe May will go for a yes or no to her deal with no remain option.

Sorry if i've missed anything tonight but i thought Labour only wanted a referendum on the tories brexit,if they somehow came to the power apparently they would negotiate a brilliant deal,and it wouldn't need clarifying by a public vote.

Risky for Labour to run on a CU/SM deal,especially in their northern heartlands.

I don't see where we go from here,but the CU/2nd ref could gain traction,both where close to a majority tonight.

Failing that MV3 could be an option now the ERG is softening their stance slightly.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Been beaten three times in Parliament now, each time by a bigger majority.

There is no mandate for "No Deal".

Time for people like you, who have ignored reality for two years, to finally acknowledge it.

But you won't, it will be another personal attack.

We dont require a mandate for a no deal, that was given in the referendum. TM can still leave on the 12th if she wants to.

As for ignoring reality for 2 years you need to look outside in the real world.
We were threatened with the direst of consequences if we voted leave. The 15 billion pound emergency budget. The 4,300 per year it was going to cost every household. Anything from 500,000 to 750,000 job losses. World War III.
3 years since we threw ourselves off the cliff like a bunch of Lemmings and there was no budget, no job losses, no household has been hit in the pocket, record unemployment, record employed, and an economy the envy of most of Europe.
What reality am I ignoring.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:29 pm

I thought it was my last contribution until I read Lancaster's last post in response to my undeniable facts that in many Labour constituencies there were leave majorities in very high figures.
The national majority for leave would have also been significantly higher than 52 /480,if we ignored Scotland. However as we are holding them up in the UK I know we can't. Long live Scottish independence, the sooner the better in my opinion.
How my posts today can be considered as from someone who is frustrated by today's events can only be understood by someone who calls a poster called Elizabeth, 'Liz'
I was always brought up to believe that someone who plays around with another person's name on purpose is someone who has nothing constructive to say

Sorry Liz

But you ignored my point. You are trying to claim stuff that isn't true, just like Colburn is.

And one thing on here you should know by know, I don't let that slide. Ever.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:30 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Ignore your own words because they do not fit the reality you find yourself in, much like Gove, Boris, JRM etc.
I'll give you one example, as there are countless more out there If you care to look for even a minute.

Vote Leave staffer who would now vote remain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGwz-u5otzk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It was his job to convince the public to vote leave. But now given the facts and reality he chose to ignore and even fight against would vote remain. So you cannot speak as one, there is no 'Will of the People' only the Will of Some People, you can only speak for yourself.

And to remind

So you admit many, many possible version of Brexit were cooked up into a binary choice and therefor mutually exclusive and un-deliverable.

In respect to some of the other more sensible posters on here, I'm backing down now it's more constructive to the overall debate than 2 people embarking upon petty squabbles, whatever you say or i say there's no way on gods green earth we will ever agree.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:31 pm

We dont require a mandate for a no deal, that was given in the referendum. TM can still leave on the 12th if she wants to.

There isn't mandate for "No Deal"

You want a "No Deal", you won't compromise and you are not bothered about the lack of a mandate. That is the reality you are ignoring and it doesn't sound very democratic

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:33 pm

n respect to some of the other more sensible posters on here, I'm backing down now it's more constructive to the overall debate than 2 people embarking upon petty squabbles, whatever you say or i say there's no way on gods green earth we will ever agree.

New way of saying "Oops, I've been made to look pretty stupid so lets just ignore it eh?"

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:33 pm

Lancaster, why is it when you quote someone you don't include their username?
Is that in the hope they miss your reply?

It doesn't send them a notification when you do it your way and chopping out their name is the long way to answering.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:35 pm

And this is absolutely crucial

"Revocation was literally nowhere just a few weeks ago. It got 184 votes tonight."

Which is more than Leave with No deal did.

Thats a hell of a swing to start bleating about people voted for a "No Deal" to be perfectly honest.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:37 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:New way of saying "Oops, I've been made to look pretty stupid so lets just ignore it eh?"

Not at all, i seriously cannot be ar**d i don't have the inclination to continue, it's not a lack of armoury, just don't see it going anywhere , at the end of the night we wouldn't have made any progress. Night dudes.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:37 pm

Lancaster, why is it when you quote someone you don't include their username?
Is that in the hope they miss your reply?

It doesn't send them a notification when you do it your way and chopping out their name is the long way to answering.

I just type them in Sid. Saves time.

Got to admit, never look at my notifications so didn't know quoting sent a notification

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:37 pm

Does anyone else think Lancaster is rattled?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:38 pm

Not at all, i seriously cannot be ar**d i don't have the inclination to continue, it's not a lack of armoury, just don't see it going anyway, at the end of the night we wouldn't have made any progress.

If you say so

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:39 pm

Does anyone else think Lancaster is rattled?

Why would I be rattled?

I've been against "No Deal" from the start, and its getting further and further away every single vote.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:39 pm

Elizabeth wrote: The national majority for leave would have also been significantly higher than 52 /48, if we ignored Scotland. However as we are holding them up in the UK I know we can't. Long live Scottish independence, the sooner the better in my opinion.

Scotland had their referendum and voted to stay part of the Union. You don’t want them to have a second referendum, surely?

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:39 pm

Be interesting should nationalists take control of Europe of left and right how 1 good propagandist like say le Pen holds balance how many remainers still be wondering how it all switched so fast?

Some times another barrier can be a good thing at the risk of being a little Englander.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:41 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Does anyone else think Lancaster is rattled?

Yep he sure is. Im expecting him to start logging in as a female any minute he's that rattled

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Long extension a possibility?

Or will that not help either?

Do you think the EU will allow it without May's deal being passed? I don't.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:42 pm

What happened to your last contribution then, you talk more tripe than Teresa, only joking Elizabeth

Oh and don’t underestimate Lancaster’s capacity to come through when you least expect it

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:42 pm

Be interesting should nationalists take control of Europe of left and right how 1 good propagandist like say le Pen holds balance how many remainers still be wondering how it all switched so fast?

Some times another barrier can be a good thing at the risk of being a little Englander.

Just as likely that it could be a groundswell against the right. Hungary went right, Spain went left. Swings and roundabouts and all that.