General Election 2017 Mega Thread

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:02 pm

claretandy wrote:John Curtice provides some context:

“Labour has lost this election as badly as Gordon Brown did in 2010.”

I presume he is basing that on raw statistics.(i.e. percentage of vote share).The context is entirely different. Labour were 20 points behind and the May government had a good enough majority to stay in power till 2020.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:02 pm

can someone explain to me what is meant by hard Brexit and soft Brexit?

I am really beginning to lose the will to live with this because so many people are arguing over what it actually is.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:08 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:can someone explain to me what is meant by hard Brexit and soft Brexit?

I am really beginning to lose the will to live with this because so many people are arguing over what it actually is.

Two meaningless soundbites.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:09 pm

Hard brexit is where we the people get dry bummed, and soft brexit is where they at least oil it up a bit

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:10 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:can someone explain to me what is meant by hard Brexit and soft Brexit?

I am really beginning to lose the will to live with this because so many people are arguing over what it actually is.

At it's most simple - though there are complexities as well:
A hard brexit means we basically leave everything and probably say "no deal", whereas a soft brexit means we come to a deal by which we probably stay in the Single market and customs union. This will result in a soft border with Eire, and possibly retaining freedom of movement.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:10 pm

"Brexit means Brexit"

A meaningless soundbite from Theresa May.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:14 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:can someone explain to me what is meant by hard Brexit and soft Brexit?

I am really beginning to lose the will to live with this because so many people are arguing over what it actually is.

Essentially, "soft Brexit" means we retain access to the EU single market, with whatever additional costs - both financial and in respect of free movement etc. - that we can agree with the EU; "hard Brexit" is where we don't have access to the EU single market but are free to make new trade agreements with the rest of the world.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:15 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:can someone explain to me what is meant by hard Brexit and soft Brexit?

I am really beginning to lose the will to live with this because so many people are arguing over what it actually is.

Hard Brexit - Only buying seasonal English strawberries.

Soft Brexit - Continue to import and buy out of season apple sized tasteless strawberries from the Netherlands and Spain.

Now this hung Parliament lark....... is it where we hang them all and start again?

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:16 pm

soft brexit means we don't leave
hard brexit means no deal
True brexit means control of borders, control of laws, control of money, control of trade.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:17 pm

Funny how some of you are saying that a soft brexit is equivalent to not leaving when the whole Leave campaign was "oh, don't worry. We can still have the benefits of the EU if we leave".

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:18 pm

"People getting carried away with 'soft Brexit'. Remember both Tories and Labour committed to ending free movement which makes that very hard"

https://twitter.com/pswidlicki/status/8 ... 8474571776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:28 pm

OK

I asked because I understood Brexit to mean that we leave the EU - at least that was how it was mis-sold to the whole country when they (the Tories) thought we wouldn't actually be stupid enough to vote for it.

Now that we have voted for it, it's almost a case of "well, we didn't really want it, but we had to appease the racists who go on about immigration and are supporting UKIP instead of us so we have it now - how can we make it work for us, I know, we'll call it hard brexit to keep the appeasement ruse going, but in reality we have no idea what the f#ck we actually want"

Here's the thing, those who oppose the hard brexit line (Labour) and still want a piece of the EU and want a soft brexit where the EU still interact with us as before - and that is what being in the EU was, but soft brexit means we dont actually get a say in anything.

If we're out, we 're out - if we want soft, then really we should still be in and not moan about it! (but it's too late for that now)

Rumbletonk · Post by **Rumbletonk** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:31 pm

I voted remain, I lost. I voted Tory, it feels like a loss. I support Burnley, I'm winning. That's 2-1 . If we can end the Turtle show sometime soon I can call it a draw. Please stop pandering to his sad online attention craving. Saxoblah, KBRwhatever and Turtle will go away if you just ignore them. For a double whammy we will find out if his solution to terrorism works too

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:32 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:OK

I asked because I understood Brexit to mean that we leave the EU - at least that was how it was mis-sold to the whole country when they (the Tories) thought we wouldn't actually be stupid enough to vote for it.

Now that we have voted for it, it's almost a case of "well, we didn't really want it, but we had to appease the racists who go on about immigration and are supporting UKIP instead of us so we have it now - how can we make it work for us, I know, we'll call it hard brexit to keep the appeasement ruse going, but in reality we have no idea what the f#ck we actually want"

Here's the thing, those who oppose the hard brexit line (Labour) and still want a piece of the EU and want a soft brexit where the EU still interact with us as before - and that is what being in the EU was, but soft brexit means we dont actually get a say in anything.

If we're out, we 're out - if we want soft, then really we should still be in and not moan about it! (but it's too late for that now)

Then the Leave campaign shouldn't have persuaded people to vote for Leave by telling them that we can still have single-market access outside the EU.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:32 pm

Rick_Muller wrote: Here's the thing, those who oppose the hard brexit line (Labour) and still want a piece of the EU and want a soft brexit where the EU still interact with us as before - and that is what being in the EU was, but soft brexit means we dont actually get a say in anything.

If we're out, we 're out - if we want soft, then really we should still be in and not moan about it! (but it's too late for that now)

I think a lot of people will agree with you. However - it has to be said that the "soft brexit" model works for Switzerland and Norway.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:33 pm

Rumbletonk wrote:I voted remain, I lost. I voted Tory, it feels like a loss. I support Burnley, I'm winning. That's 2-1 . If we can end the Turtle show sometime soon I can call it a draw. Please stop pandering to his sad online attention craving. Saxoblah, KBRwhatever and Turtle will go away if you just ignore them. For a double whammy we will find out if his solution to terrorism works too

Out of nowhere, the turtle-hate arrives

I wonder what i've done wrong this time.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:34 pm

claretandy wrote:"People getting carried away with 'soft Brexit'. Remember both Tories and Labour committed to ending free movement which makes that very hard"

https://twitter.com/pswidlicki/status/8 ... 8474571776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But the reality is that neither party could get a majority. (Not really an issue for Labour, but the Tories had one and chose to blow it).

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:36 pm

Isn't it ironic that for all the links of Jeremy Corbyn to the IRA we now have a government who are going to do a deal with the DUP who supported protestant terrorism.

Rumbletonk · Post by **Rumbletonk** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:37 pm

I don't hate anyone. Good luck to you and yours

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:38 pm

Spijed wrote:Isn't it ironic that for all the links of Jeremy Corbyn to the IRA we now have a government who are going to do a deal with the DUP who supported protestant terrorism.

They are religious fundamentalists.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:41 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Out of nowhere, the turtle-hate arrives

I wonder what i've done wrong this time.

You posted on here

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:44 pm

The DUP - they hate homosexuals, oppose abortion for rape victims, support terrorism, think evolution is a lie and that climate change isn't real/or it's God's will. But thank God the SNP didn't help form the government because that would be a disaster.

WadingInDeeper · Post by **WadingInDeeper** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:45 pm

Selling out as a last desperate act to cling to power.

All those who couldn't vote for a terrorist sympathiser ended up with a religious fundamentalist sympathiser.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:45 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Face it Moffitt, there just isn't enough public support for the kamikaze Brexit that you want. May went to the public with exactly that, and the public rejected it.

No, they rejected her because she is an incompetent and totally unlikable person.

If they were so anti Brexit then why did the lid Dem only gain 4 seats despite being the only anti Brexit party?

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:47 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:They are religious fundamentalists.

Are they going to be the anti-ISIS army?

We can set one bunch of religious lunatics against another.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:47 pm

I didn't say they were anti-Brexit.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:47 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:They are religious fundamentalists.

They are even too far to the right for me and I'm a neo nazi according to some. It's quite funny how this surge to the left may well have resulted in a far more right wing government

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:49 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The DUP - they hate homosexuals, oppose abortion for rape victims, support terrorism, think evolution is a lie and that climate change isn't real/or it's God's will. But thank God the SNP didn't help form the government because that would be a disaster.

It is a real shame IT that the Maths didn't quite work out for Labour to form a coalition. Could you imagine that, Labour, SNP, DUP, Lib Dems, The Green Party, the Welsh lot and a couple of Independents all trying to **** in the same pot, Now that would have been fun.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:50 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:They are even too far to the right for me and I'm a neo nazi according to some. It's quite funny how this surge to the left may well have resulted in a far more right wing government

But they'll never get anything remotely far right through Parliament, and the division and anger within their own ranks will eat them up.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:01 pm

True brexit means control of borders, control of laws, control of money, control of trade.

That wasn't on the ballot sheet, so thats not what it means.

I don't see the problem to be honest, you lot get your blue passports and we get not to have economic meltdown.

Win/Win

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:07 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:That wasn't on the ballot sheet, so thats not what it means.

I don't see the problem to be honest, you lot get your blue passports and we get not to have economic meltdown.

Win/Win

Control of borders is non negotiable.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:07 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:That wasn't on the ballot sheet, so thats not what it means.

I don't see the problem to be honest, you lot get your blue passports and we get not to have economic meltdown.

Win/Win

You can't vote for corbyn and pretend to be primarily concerned with avoiding an economic meltdown

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:10 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The DUP - they hate homosexuals, oppose abortion for rape victims, support terrorism, think evolution is a lie and that climate change isn't real/or it's God's will. But thank God the SNP didn't help form the government because that would be a disaster.

Terrific.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:13 pm

claretandy wrote:Control of borders is non negotiable.

everything is negotiable.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:13 pm

Yeah I can CM, because I regarded his policies as less damaging than a hard brexit.

I know you don't agree, but I've been clear since the start, the economic argument for Brexit does not stack up.

Hard Brexit would have been a disaster, and as Corbyn didn't get in, it doesn't really matter.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:13 pm

Great tweet on the DUP

"basically their manifesto is the bible with fortnightly bin collections"

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:20 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yeah I can CM, because I regarded his policies as less damaging than a hard brexit.

I know you don't agree, but I've been clear since the start, the economic argument for Brexit does not stack up.

Hard Brexit would have been a disaster, and as Corbyn didn't get in, it doesn't really matter.

Corbyn's policy around going after the big boys with corporation tax etc was admirable Lancaster. The real concern with this always looked like the small businesses that would have been damaged by such a move, businesses which employ 15.7 million in this country. So economic meltdown seems high on the agenda of both mainstream parties.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:21 pm

But he didn't get in, so it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that hard brexit is off the table, completely and utterly.

I can cope with Brexit that doesn't shaft the country. That is now almost a certainty.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:24 pm

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:25 pm

Its like if they pretend last night never happened, then it never happened.

She's going to get absolutely destroyed when she talks to anyone, assuming she ever will.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:But he didn't get in, so it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that hard brexit is off the table, completely and utterly.

I can cope with Brexit that doesn't shaft the country. That is now almost a certainty.

The EU posturing suggests they still want to force an hard brexit, its still very likely. And this election result will only reinforce that stance.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:32 pm

Both sides want a deal, now we all know that the deal won't get past the commons unless it satisfies everybody.

Hard Brexit wouldn't get past, a softer one will, though who knows what that will involve!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:32 pm

There was a theory that by having a increased majority. May would be LESS reliant on the brexiteers in her party.

With a reduced majority she's probably MORE reliant.

More chance of a Clean Brexit?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:33 pm

claretandy wrote:Control of borders is non negotiable.

I think it it just has been.
Arlene Foster has made it clear. The price for propping up Tory Govt is a soft border.
I've already brought that to your attention once.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:36 pm

Cut him some slack, his dreams died last night.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:37 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:There was a theory that by having a increased majority. May would be LESS reliant on the brexiteers in her party.

With a reduced majority she's probably MORE reliant.

More chance of a Clean Brexit?

Emboldens the moderates. The result is a clear rejection of the cliff-edge approach.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:38 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Cut him some slack, his dreams died last night.

Has he been cutting the likes of you and me any slack. We've been "losers" for almost 12 months now.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:39 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:What does matter is that hard brexit is off the table, completely and utterly.

How on earth do you know that? Are you saying that no matter what terms are offered by the EU, when it comes to March 2019, the PM (whoever it may be) will sign literally anything? Or are you saying that following the election result, it now becomes certain that the EU will offer a reasonable deal?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:43 pm

If it be your will wrote:When May says she will form a government to 'provide certainty', does everyone else laugh??

I honestly believe that it was the speech she drafted yesterday - expecting a big majority, except with a just a few word changes.
I just don't think she has the capacity to think on her feet and adapt to a changing scenario, and from what we have learnt during the campaign, she will have most likely declined help or advice from anyone in the past 15 hours since it unfolded.
I'm pretty sure the blue outfit was intended to be the coronation gown too. Shame she didn't get the crown to go with it. lol.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:43 pm

They have the poisoned chalice of Brexit without the mandate to push through the insane policies. However, there's no way they can yield to the nutty religious fundamentalist aspects of the DUP without sacrificing significant long-term political capital which makes me think we're heading for a minority govt with another election in a few months.