#politicslive

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:01 am

dsr wrote:It was rejected by Remainers too. Both Brexiteers and Remainers recognised it as a very bad deal.

Yes. But when Brexiteers reject it it's a patriotic and virtuous act. But when Remainers do it it's because they hate democracy and they hate Britain.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:31 am

If you say so, friend of Ringo.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:14 am

summitclaret wrote:As I said above, the tories will unite and are playing a massive poker game with the EU.

Are they doing it with all of the cards, Summit? Do they "hold all the cards", Summit?

Also...

A "coup"

etc.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:39 am

Test User wrote:Are they doing it with all of the cards, Summit? Do they "hold all the cards", Summit?

Also...

A "coup" etc.

Thought your ban was over

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:53 am

It was rejected by Remainers too

Yes of course

But any deal would be worse than we have now, and that is not what the referendum promised, so we back in this circle of never ending arguments in which people like me who deal with the real world and facts and figures argue with people like you who deal with dreams and vague statements that sound ace.

You think you are right, I know I'm right.

But this doesn't change anything. We are not prepared as a county for a "No Deal" and nothing we can do now will unite the country behind anything.

A "No Deal" result opens up a lot more problems than a bad deal would (and remain), and that is the decision we have to make.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:58 am

This is well worth a read

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... eal-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:41 am

Dominic Charles Robert Grieve owns £3.1 million and is heavily invested in Europe and globally. He owns land in France and is a director of Franco-British Society and Franco-British Council. He owns shares in many companies. He is worried only about his personal fortune.

He voted for a referendum. He stood on a 2015 tory party manifesto that promised a referendum. A 2017 tory party manifesto that pledged to leave the European Union, end free movement, leave the single market and end the jurisdiction of the ECJ. That was the basis on which his constituents voted for him. Yet this treasonous duplicitous man, pretending to be a high minded, principled statesman concerned about democracy. He is absolutely not. He's a quisling who's never ever accepted the biggest single expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed. He part of a metropolitan establishment and disconnected political class which has actually helped to bring about Brexit.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:02 am

I haven't said this very often, but it look like JC was right. Utterly pointless going to see her when she had no intentions of listening to anyone. She's now back to trying to win over the hard Brexiters. Good luck with that one. Surely she must release by now that they aren't going to play ball with any Brexit deal she comes up with? She's too intransigent to be of any use to anyone and will go down in history as the worst Tory PM since Arthur Balfour.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:25 am

Out of curiosity, for those who want the UK to be able to unilaterally end the backstop position would you be in agreement with this being a reciprocal clause? I.e. the EU could also unilaterally end it without the UK's permission.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:30 am

Billy Balfour wrote: She's too intransigent to be of any use to anyone and will go down in history as the worst Tory PM since Arthur Balfour.

Are you forgetting the man that got us into this mess? History will not judge Cameron well.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:40 am

Why doesn't TM just go back to the EU and ask them to:

Remove the backstop from the withdrawal agreement
OR
Prepare for a no deal Brexit

The EU will then have to decide whether to throw the ROI under the bus or throw both the UK and EU under the bus.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:43 am

Mala591 wrote:Why doesn't TM just go back to the EU and ask them to:

Remove the backstop from the withdrawal agreement
OR
Prepare for a no deal Brexit
.

Threatening to shoot yourself in the head if you don't get your own way is unlikely to work.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:46 am

Thing is, far too many of UK citizens and voters seem perfectly happy to do that based on what appears to be "belief"

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:51 am

First rule of any kind of negotiation - be prepared to walk away.

First rule in thwarting brexit and usurping democracy - tie the hands of your own government during negotiations.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:54 am

"Will of the people"

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:01 pm

The underlying notion seems to be that they should have listened to ‘their betters’ — rather like naughty school children, if only they had ‘paid more attention in class.’”

Corr says the fact that many working-class people have been subject to this attitude for much of their lives “made the kick up the backside of ‘their betters’ all the more enjoyable.”

Sound familiar!?

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:12 pm

Why didnt you just link the Politico article seen like you just copy and pasted it word for word with no insight of your own

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:12 pm

That annoying bloke shouting in the background on BBC Two really needs to be muzzled. And I agree with him!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:21 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Why didnt you just link the Politico article seen like you just copy and pasted it word for word with no insight of your own

Because realistically nobody would read it.

And I didn't try and pass it off as my own insight in any way shape or form. The fact I left the phrase "told POLITICO" proves it.

That really is a poor attempt at shooting the messenger. Perhaps you're still recovering from the "trauma" mentioned above.

Get well soon x

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:21 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Why didnt you just link the Politico article seen like you just copy and pasted it word for word with no insight of your own

Maybe he's a Dunning–Kruger? Also, copy and pasting verbatim isn't always such a good idea - it can breach copyright law.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:23 pm

Its an interesting read but I'm pretty sure it doesn't represent that many people.

I just want us to avoid a "No Deal". I don't see how anyone can think its a good idea or even an acceptable idea based on the available evidence.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:28 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:Maybe he's a Dunning–Kruger? Also, copy and pasting verbatim isn't always such a good idea - it can breach copyright law.

Given you know nothing about me apart from the stuff I post on here. Your Dunning - Kruger assertion is as baseless as if you'd claimed I was a combination of David Dunn and Freddie Kruger! (Although that could be closer to reality!)

Raw nerve touched me thinks.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:32 pm

Given you know nothing about me apart from the stuff I post on here

There you have it everyone. Peak Ringo.

He assumes stuff about everybody else, but how dare you do it about him.

Never change mate, never change!

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:33 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Raw nerve touched me thinks.

Nope, not at all. You tried to make yourself look like a bit of a Clever Trevor and failed when you C&P the article in full. HTH.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:35 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:There you have it everyone. Peak Ringo.

He assumes stuff about everybody else, but how dare you do it about him.

Never change mate, never change!

Am I to assume you've unblocked me and therefore continued down the road to enlightenment!?

Welcome back on board.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:36 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Because realistically nobody would read it.

And I didn't try and pass it off as my own insight in any way shape or form. The fact I left the phrase "told POLITICO" proves it.

That really is a poor attempt at shooting the messenger. Perhaps you're still recovering from the "trauma" mentioned above.

Get well soon x

I wasn't suggesting you were trying to pass it off as your own but if everyone took your approach and started copy and pasting all the info from their links then threads like this would just become a mess.

As soon as there was more than a couple of sentences strung together coherently it was obvious that it wasn't your own words but it is always good to use a link to help support your own thoughts and ideas as makes for much better discussions

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:38 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:Nope, not at all. You tried to make yourself look like a bit of a Clever Trevor and failed when you C&P the article in full. HTH.

You keep shooting the messenger old boy. However.

"Part of the problem for Remainers is that their emotional reaction to Brexiteers makes them feel better, even if it fails to address the fundamental cause of their anxiety."

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:39 pm

Dunning-Kruger, - people getting ideas above their station. Isn't that what the POLITICO article was all about?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:41 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I wasn't suggesting you were trying to pass it off as your own but if everyone took your approach and started copy and pasting all the info from their links then threads like this would just become a mess.

As soon as there was more than a couple of sentences strung together coherently it was obvious that it wasn't your own words but it is always good to use a link to help support your own thoughts and ideas as makes for much better discussions

Another one joining the rifle range to shoot the messenger.....

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:41 pm

Correct

Missed you (and the fact that people kept quoting you so I got the stuff anyway)

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:44 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Correct

Missed you (and the fact that people kept quoting you so I got the stuff anyway)

Come on , you and I both know you had a crafty peek now and again! The "unblock" icon was too much of a temptation.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:47 pm

No need to do that, anything interesting was requoted

It wasn't fair on you because I should be able to read your stuff and be capable of reacting fairly to it as I'm supposed to be an adult.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No need to do that, anything interesting was requoted

It wasn't fair on you because I should be able to read your stuff and be capable of reacting fairly to it as I'm supposed to be an adult.

Wonderful!

Remember that the road to recovering from Brexit Anxiety Disorder starts by admitting you have it.

Going forward, I can actually be part of your rehabilitation.

If you'd like to go through the waiting room doors, Dr. McCartney will see you now.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:58 pm

Jesus, I'm regretting this already.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Jesus, I'm regretting this already.

Bit much to expect him to be an adult in return.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:05 pm

I reckon he’d have worked out that block function given another 3 or 4 months as well.

Embrace him while he’s here. You never know when he might get himself banned again.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:13 pm

martin_p wrote:Bit much to expect him to be an adult in return.

Ringo McCartney-

"Bercow is being kept on place to "Stop Brexit". His role will be pivotal"

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

You going to admit you were wrong and my prediction was prohpehetic.? Or is that too much to expect?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:18 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Jesus, I'm regretting this already.

Dr McCartneys surgery January 2019 -

LC -"Morning Doctor. My name is Lancaster Claret and I've been suffering from Brexit Anxiety Disorder since 2016."

RM "Good morning. We can discuss the Brexit Anxiety Disorder later. But why are you wearing see-through trousers? I can clearly see you're nuts!"

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:20 pm

He's here all week, folks.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:27 pm

https://youtu.be/9tXBC-71aZs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:29 pm

I'm loving how the ability to understand 40 years of economic interaction and being perturbed by the desire to throw it all away by people who appear to not understand its not like leaving a golf club or a gym is suddenly a medical condition.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:13 pm

I watched that sky news brexit debate last night after the footy.

It's now very clear that Peoples opinions haven't shifted but that Brexiteers sat back and trusted the political class to honour and carry out the command they gave it.
The anger was palpable was clear as it's now apparent that trust has been misplaced and there is a dark and sinister establishment , well funded , well organised and worryingly influential. That is willing to use all its leverage to power to thwart democracy itself. It has previously been covert but the spectacle that is unfolding is there for all to see. This anger could unleash a politically driven backlash against the establishment, this country has never ever witnessed before.

The likes of Grieve and Cooper , aided and abetted by the odious John Bercow, are playing fast and loose with democracy. A democracy in which trust is hanging by a thread. They're playing with fire and it's inevitably going to burn them.

Hopefully......

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:41 pm

Sinister.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:45 pm

I think Dr McCartney needs a nurse!!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:50 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I think Dr McCartney needs a nurse!!

I know he does!

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:08 pm

Ringo - what is a Representative Democracy?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:17 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I watched that sky news brexit debate last night after the footy.

It's now very clear that Peoples opinions haven't shifted but that Brexiteers sat back and trusted the political class to honour and carry out the command they gave it.
The anger was palpable was clear as it's now apparent that trust has been misplaced and there is a dark and sinister establishment , well funded , well organised and worryingly influential. That is willing to use all its leverage to power to thwart democracy itself. It has previously been covert but the spectacle that is unfolding is there for all to see. This anger could unleash a politically driven backlash against the establishment, this country has never ever witnessed before.

The likes of Grieve and Cooper , aided and abetted by the odious John Bercow, are playing fast and loose with democracy. A democracy in which trust is hanging by a thread. They're playing with fire and it's inevitably going to burn them.

Hopefully......

You're peddling conspiracy theories. You missed the word deep-state, but it's essentially what you're arguing. Hoping for folks to be 'burned'? Your language, and that of some of the more fervent brexiteers, is becoming increasingly more violent. Do you condemn these words by UKIP member Kenneth Allen?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-46921529" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:21 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Ringo - what is a Representative Democracy?

A representative democracy is where only Ringo is represented and any one else being represented is leftist fascism.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:30 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Ringo - what is a Representative Democracy?

MPs , those that represent us, delegated the decision whether or not to leave the European Union to the people.

MPs voted by a ratio of 6 to 1 to give sovereignty to the People.

In 2017 84 % of voters chose a party whose manifesto pledged to leave the European Union, end free movement of people, leave the single market and customs union and end the jurisdiction of the ECJ. That's what their constituents voted for.

The majority of constituencies voted (Remember the referendum did not take place on a straight forward constituency basis it was voting areas) according to an electoral expert at Oxford university, around 420 constituencies voted to Leave.

Now if our representatives are going to ignore-

1 The national referendum result. 17.4 million v 16.2 million Majority leave

2 The manifesto pledges on which they were elected. 84 % voted Majority leave

3 The constituencies which they represent. Approximately 420 constituencies Majority leave

But become a law unto themselves. What is the point in actually voting for them?

If you do not enact the results of the expression of democracy, you're not democratic. You're simply paying lip service to it.

Our representatives delegated sovereignty to the People in referendum. Our representatives had the opportunity to express their opinion at the ballot box on June 23rd 2016. Just like me and you.

Around 400 of them, like you, refuse to accept the result.

The fact about democracy is thus. If you're viewpoint wins every election or referendum, you're probably living in North Korea or Zimbabwe.

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:32 pm

summitclaret wrote:56 to 44% against a 2nd ref.
51 to 49% say we made the wrong decision.

Hardly justifies Hoc taking control and mps overriding the result of he referendum.

Yes just 1 poll and quite a small sample size. However it was today. The day before a coup is attempted.

Has the coup happened, Summit? I've not been paying attention today some i might have missed it.

Love you really