General Election 2017 Mega Thread

Wexford_Claret · Post by **Wexford_Claret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:40 pm

Right_winger wrote:So when have the DUP planted bombs or killed innocent civilians?

They haven't. Neither have Sinn Féin, not since the 1920s. The DUP have, however, like Sinn Féin had heavy connections with terrorist groups, who did plant bombs and did kill innocent civilians.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:40 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:So Corbyn sympathises and that's bad, but the DUP heirarchy imported guns and authorised murders and that's ok?

Go on then let's see it? When has the DUP ordered murders of innocent civilians?

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:42 pm

Right_winger wrote:Go on then let's see it? When has the DUP ordered murders of innocent civilians?

Right_winger wrote:Nobody is saying he has, but they quite rightly point out that he sympathies with terrorist organisations who have carried out such atrocities. The internets a big place it's easy to find the car crash interview when he refused to even condemn IRA attacks.

http://bfy.tw/CHHO" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:53 pm

Right_winger wrote:Go on then let's see it? When has the DUP ordered murders of innocent civilians?

Ian Paisley set up the UCDC and the Ulster Protestant Volunteers. The UPV committed 4 terrorist bombings.

Paisley, Peter Robinson, Sammy Wilson and Ivan Foster set up Ulster Resistance, who worked with the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando to import weapons from South Africa in order to murder innocent civilians.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:59 pm

claretandy wrote:Austerity and "the yoof" wanting free stuff. The yoof voted in their droves and still won't get free stuff, will they turn out next time ?

Comments like this are incredibly condescending to "the yoof" and aren't exactly about to turn them around to your viewpoint. You can't blame the electorate for voting for the 'wrong side'. Remain tried that after the referendum and ended up looking very silly.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:14 pm

Doesn't take long for the splits to start. Hardly surprising in this instance.

https://twitter.com/ruthdavidsonmsp/sta ... 3427142656" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:16 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I read somewhere that Brexit featured in 15% of people's main rationale for voting - the bulk was other manifesto stuff from which May offered nothing. Very poor from her but wrong of the other party opportunists (and the odious Gina Millar) for suggesting this was a vote against Brexit.

Hi Crosspool,
Your posts are usually very well balanced, but you've crossed the line on this one.
I'm not going to search for all the reports and quotes, but when TM called the election, she stood outside No. 10, and said that she was calling it because some people, (esp. MPs in Parliament) were trying to thwart brexit etc. etc., and she wanted to go to negotiations with a clear majority and mandate. She said that this would strengthen our position because she would be "strong and stable". She told us this about 7 times.
It was very much - give me a personal mandate and blank cheque to deliver a good deal, (or it's no deal).

Brexit was mentioned throughout the campaign - though not with the same emphasis, since she got sidelined with so many muddled issues, but then when the polls narrowed with a couple of days to go, she focused strongly on it again, and then on the eve of the election it was the main thrust of her rallying cry to try to shore up the Tory vote.
There can be no doubt that this was the "Brexit" election. If it wasn't, then surely the Tories would have spent at least a bit of time putting some form of manifesto together for domestic policy which they could have fought on, rather than treating the electorate with contempt.
EDIT:
Actually this is just one of her interviews (May 30th)

..........last night confirmed that only one of us has the determination to deliver the will of the people and make Brexit happen – and only one of us has the plan to make Brexit a success.

Last night showed that Jeremy Corbyn’s minders can put him in a smart blue suit for an interview with Jeremy Paxman, but with his position on Brexit, he will find himself alone and naked in the negotiating chamber with the European Union. Now I know that’s an image that doesn’t bear thinking about. But actually this is very serious. We are approaching the end of a long campaign, but it is crucial that everybody remembers this important fact.

Britain is about to enter into the most important negotiations of my lifetime. They begin just eleven days after polling day. And the European Union is already adopting an aggressive negotiating position.

That’s why, now more than ever, Britain needs a strong government and a strong Prime Minister capable of standing up to Brussels. Your vote is more important than ever. Because every vote for me in this election will – if I’m returned as Prime Minister – strengthen my hand in the negotiations that are about to start

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:26 pm

For those who want a bit of a clearer picture of who was killing who. Here's an extract from the BBC history website. I think we can accept it as pretty accurate. (I'm not defending any of it, or either side by the way, but it certainly wasn't the one sided terror that some on here depict it to be.

"Death toll
Most of those killed in the Troubles were civilian, over 2000 in total. Of those the majority, some 1270, were Catholic. Almost 730 Protestant civilians died.
In all, over 300 full and part-time police officers as well as just over 200 members of the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) were killed. Many were targeted while off duty, killed going about their routine because of their uniform but not wearing it. Protestants made up the vast majority of local security force ranks and, therefore, their dead. Fewer than 40 of the RUC officers, reservists and UDR members killed were Catholic. Just over 500 members of the regular Army were killed.
Some 400 republican paramilitaries died, most of them members of the IRA, and almost 170 loyalist paramilitaries. A significant number of paramilitaries were killed by their own organisations as alleged informers, in premature explosions and by rival groups during feuds.
The violence was not confined to the paramilitary groups alone. The security forces were responsible for 367 deaths. The facts surrounding many of these killings are still disputed, and allegations of security force collusion with loyalists have led to persistent demands for investigation. The vast majority of these demands come from the nationalist and republican communities. Of almost 200 civilians killed by the security forces, all but 23 were Catholic. Of more than 150 paramilitaries killed by the security forces, fewer than 20 were loyalist.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:28 pm

The dust will soon settle and David Davis can then get on with the important task of bringing back control of our borders, our laws and the launch of an international free trade policy.

'Think positive and positive things begin to happen.'

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:30 pm

From Reddit:

"Looks like we'll be sending Brussels the Conservative and Unionist Negotiating Team. I hope they can come up with a handy acronym."

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:32 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Hi Crosspool,
Your posts are usually very well balanced, but you've crossed the line on this one.
I'm not going to search for all the reports and quotes, but when TM called the election, she stood outside No. 10, and said that she was calling it because some people, (esp. MPs in Parliament) were trying to thwart brexit etc. etc., and she wanted to go to negotiations with a clear majority and mandate. She said that this would strengthen our position because she would be "strong and stable". She told us this about 7 times.
It was very much - give me a personal mandate and blank cheque to deliver a good deal, (or it's no deal).

Brexit was mentioned throughout the campaign - though not with the same emphasis, since she got sidelined with so many muddled issues, but then when the polls narrowed with a couple of days to go, she focused strongly on it again, and then on the eve of the election it was the main thrust of her rallying cry to try to shore up the Tory vote.
There can be no doubt that this was the "Brexit" election. If it wasn't, then surely the Tories would have spent at least a bit of time putting some form of manifesto together for domestic policy which they could have fought on, rather than treating the electorate with contempt.
EDIT:
Actually this is just one of her interviews (May 30th)

..........last night confirmed that only one of us has the determination to deliver the will of the people and make Brexit happen – and only one of us has the plan to make Brexit a success.

Last night showed that Jeremy Corbyn’s minders can put him in a smart blue suit for an interview with Jeremy Paxman, but with his position on Brexit, he will find himself alone and naked in the negotiating chamber with the European Union. Now I know that’s an image that doesn’t bear thinking about. But actually this is very serious. We are approaching the end of a long campaign, but it is crucial that everybody remembers this important fact.

Britain is about to enter into the most important negotiations of my lifetime. They begin just eleven days after polling day. And the European Union is already adopting an aggressive negotiating position.

That’s why, now more than ever, Britain needs a strong government and a strong Prime Minister capable of standing up to Brussels. Your vote is more important than ever. Because every vote for me in this election will – if I’m returned as Prime Minister – strengthen my hand in the negotiations that are about to start

I don't think that the reason stated for the election is under question. The reason the election was lost (or should I say not won) was that there was no focus on non EU exit issues, which appears to have struck a chord with plenty of voters (outside of London particularly, as Lancs has rightly pointed out).

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:33 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:From Reddit:

"Looks like we'll be sending Brussels the Conservative and Unionist Negotiating Team. I hope they can come up with a handy acronym."

You're late with that one IT.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:38 pm

: IMG_20170609_172555.jpg (402.07 KiB) Viewed 2638 times

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:38 pm

84% majority for leaving the single market and ending freedom of movement, a "hard brexit"

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:40 pm

claretandy wrote:84% majority for leaving the single market and ending freedom of movement, a "hard brexit"

Labour got over 40% of the vote and they want to stay in the single market. That's not a hard Brexit. You, and your source, are as always full of ****. And before you come out with "oh, but yeah, ignore that bit that doesn't mean anything" the image you used literally uses the Tory manifesto saying they'll leave the Single Market as if doing so is symbolic of a hard brexit.

Your own source contradicts your argument.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:42 pm

claretandy wrote:84% majority for leaving the single market and ending freedom of movement, a "hard brexit"

Where does it say in Labour manifesto that they advocate leavingthe Single Market or Customs Union.?
I don't think they are in there.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:46 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Where does it say in Labour manifesto that they advocate leavingthe Single Market or Customs Union.?
I don't think they are in there.

It says the exact opposide

"We will scrap the Brexit White Paper and replace is with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and Customs Union - which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first."

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:07 pm

claretandy wrote:84% majority for leaving the single market and ending freedom of movement, a "hard brexit"

Well let's see what your God-King had to say about a Norway-style arrangement (before the referendum, obviously)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCwcTu9U6U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:18 pm

Thats the Leave.Eu whose flyers had pictures of Europe, with Turkey and Syria tacked on yeah?

Hmm

I understand you are not going to get a hard brexit Andy, but you are getting a Brexit. You get your blue passports, and we get an economy that works.

Like I said before, its a win/win if you want it to be

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:23 pm

Right_winger wrote:Go on then let's see it? When has the DUP ordered murders of innocent civilians?

When has Corbyn?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:31 pm

I can't see this posted earlier in the thread, apologies if I've missed it. Ruth Davidson, whom TM owes a pint to say the least, sending out an early, not-so-subtle message to TM and the govt.

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/sta ... 3427142656" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:24 pm

Excellent tweet from Maajid Nawaz

"The left will (rightly) criticise DUP's anti-gay,anti-woman&creationist views, while they ally with similar factions among we (brown)Muslims"

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/ ... 9021578240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:26 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote: Labour got over 40% of the vote and they want to stay in the single market. That's not a hard Brexit. You, and your source, are as always full of ****. And before you come out with "oh, but yeah, ignore that bit that doesn't mean anything" the image you used literally uses the Tory manifesto saying they'll leave the Single Market as if doing so is symbolic of a hard brexit.

Your own source contradicts your argument.

Once again Turtles heed you misunderstand the difference between ACCESS and MEMBERSHIP of the single market, In Corbyns own words in the 7 way debate he said "freedom of movement will end".

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:27 pm

You're neurotic, andy. Find me a liberal defending theologically informed bigotry. There is a f.uckton of opinionated arseholes on twitter, shouldn't be too hard, right? Go for it. Try find one.

By the way, I've time for Maajid Nawaz and I'm also open minded to his think-tank, despite the fact it doesn't yet seem to be producing many tangible results. Doesn't mean he's not misrepresenting liberalism. Not true liberalism, anyway.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:28 pm

I'm pretty sure the left aren't partnering with Muslims to form a government. If they were then they'd deserve just as much criticism. But they're not.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:34 pm

Worth remembering that the Tories were trying to tell us all to be absolutely terrified that the SNP might be part of a government yet here they are jumping into bed with the DUP and their vile beliefs.

So I guess the Tories and all you who are fine with this but opposed the SNP having a say in a Labour government can find more common ground with homophobic, women hating creationists than with the SNP. That says quite a bit about you.

bartons baggage · Post by **bartons baggage** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:34 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm pretty sure the left aren't partnering with Muslims to form a government. If they were then they'd deserve just as much criticism. But they're not.

Has your election, erection gone flaccid yet?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:36 pm

I really wish I was a leftie.

Your side get a drubbing.

And you all award each other a winner's medal!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:38 pm

claretandy wrote:Once again Turtles heed you misunderstand the difference between ACCESS and MEMBERSHIP of the single market, In Corbyns own words in the 7 way debate he said "freedom of movement will end".

And you have no clue what a soft Brexit is if you don't think it includes access to the single market.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:39 pm

bartons baggage wrote:Has your election, erection gone flaccid yet?

Could wave the cross of St Andrews on it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:41 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I really wish I was a leftie.

Your side get a drubbing.

And you all award each other a winner's medal!

25 point lead. And even with the Tory press propaganda on your side you still couldn't win a snap election.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:41 pm

Spiral wrote:You're neurotic, andy. Find me a liberal defending theologically informed bigotry. There is a f.uckton of opinionated arseholes on twitter, shouldn't be too hard, right? Go for it. Try find one.

By the way, I've time for Maajid Nawaz and I'm also open minded to his think-tank, despite the fact it doesn't yet seem to be producing many tangible results. Doesn't mean he's not misrepresenting liberalism. Not true liberalism, anyway.

Owen Jones for one.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:42 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:And you have no clue what a soft Brexit is if you don't think it includes access to the single market.

Everyone has access, and so will we.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:42 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I really wish I was a leftie.

Your side get a drubbing.

And you all award each other a winner's medal!

Then why are all the right wingers crying like babies today?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:44 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Your side get a drubbing.

Meanwhile, in the real world, May redefines the word pyrrhic.

BTW, I'm not quite sure what this false equivalence angle actually is re. DUP/Muslims, considering it was a left wing party that actually made the tackling of the propagation of Salafi Jihadi worldview at its very roots an election issue.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:45 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Then why are all the right wingers crying like babies today?

Because they know their politics of fear is getting found out so now they're transitioning to the politics of denial.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:46 pm

claretandy wrote:Owen Jones for one.

Can't stand the bloke, but nope. He advocates a degree of religious tolerance (to the point where it becomes intolerant). He absolutely does not defend theologically informed bigotry. Try again.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:47 pm

If the left took a drubbing, the right must have gone into liquidation and reformed in the ninth tier.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:54 pm

It didn't take long for the great unwashed, hard left, democracy deniers led by the chief cockwomble Lily Allen to be out protesting

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:55 pm

Owen Jones for one.

I quite like him, and he's not the liberal you are looking for.

The liberal you are looking for is probably a roboliberal from Breibart

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:56 pm

Never trust a tory is quite a sensible and very truthful statement though.

Pimlico_Claret · Post by **Pimlico_Claret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:16 pm

claretandy wrote:It didn't take long for the great unwashed, hard left, democracy deniers led by the chief cockwomble Lily Allen to be out protesting

Claret Andy, I've read a lot of your posts and have come to this very simple conclusion... I wish you were a Bastards supporter.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:20 pm

Someone described the DUP manifesto as "basically just the Bible with fortnightly bin collections". I found that amusing.

john'sroseyspecs · Post by **john'sroseyspecs** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:23 pm

I assume this photo is from this morning? Don't know about you but i was at work then.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:25 pm

There is a strong possibility of the following

- Day off
- Shift work
- late start

Course, if you want to go down the claretandy route, then knock yourself out, but there are always other ways of looking at stuff.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:29 pm

Pimlico_Claret wrote:Claret Andy, I've read a lot of your posts and have come to this very simple conclusion... I wish you were a Bastards supporter.

don't read them then dickwad.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:30 pm

The European Court of Human Rights explained to those who don't know anything about it

Just seems the right place to put this

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/vid ... r-us-video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pimlico_Claret · Post by **Pimlico_Claret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:30 pm

claretandy wrote:don't read them then dickwad.

Don't be a Burnley fan, you are an embarrassment.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:37 pm

Pimlico_Claret wrote:Don't be a Burnley fan, you are an embarrassment.

In your opinion.

Pimlico_Claret · Post by **Pimlico_Claret** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:41 pm

Exactly, which is why I am posting. Can only hope you find another hobby, stoning brown people or something else similar on your agenda, and disappear into the ether.