Covid-19

[martin_p]

No Marty you were asking a question here it was in black and white.




You refer to "OUR FIGURES" , which clearly means mortality rates. No mention whatsoever about lockdown timing.

And if you want to talk about "missing the point." You've, not surprisingly, missed the following! -

When making a fair and objective assessment on how each country has performed the following may have to be considered-

Excess deaths which will be a key determining factor.

A consistent way that deaths are attributed to Covid 19

Obesity.

Rates of diabetes.

Ethnic make up of population.

Age demographics.

Population densities.

Poverty.

Whether a country had already experienced similar epidemics like MERS or SARS and had infrastructure already in place which certain countries have.

Whether or not a colder/warmer climate helps or hinders the contagious nature of this new virus.

Whether having global international hub, (LONDON) through which 1000s of people from all over the world pass through on a daily basis, is a disadvantage.

Rates of single occupancy homes

Rates of multiple occupancy homes

Numbers of the population people in care homes.

The potential effect of ultra violet light on the virus in countries experiencing their summer.

The effect of vitamin D deficiency in large swathes of the population at the end of a long grey winter.



As for whether or not I agree with the majority of the country that the U.K. entered lockdown too late?

Its premature to make a judgement.

You may not like the answer, but it's the only one you're getting.

Like it or lump it.....

Funny, but you weren’t so worried about it being premature to make a judgement when you said

I am in line with the opinion of the majority of British people. Who despite how much you want to wish it otherwise, believe the government is doing a decent job. Given the unprecedented , unenviable, horrendous situation.

[aggi]

I'm not the one making things up aggi.






It's quite obvious from these 2 previous post that you clearly understand my opinion and even claimed the Treasury Select Committee disagreed with it!!

In case you forgot-


I've also said that using the raw mortality rates to draw conclusions and judgements on the UK government's handling of the 2020 Coronavirus pandemic crisis, while we're still in the middle of it is premature, uninformed potentially dangerous and a fools errand.


You've still to post a link where the, "Treasury Select Committee disagrees with me".

Either put up, or stop making things up.

Well you said
Attempting to compare individual unique countries with all sorts of vastly differing variables , especially while we're still in the midst of the unprecedented global pandemic. Is quite simply a fools errand.

And the Treasury Select Committee directly compared the UK to South Korea.

Now in the interest of putting up or stop making things up, I'd like to see the post where I claimed the Treasury Select Committee used raw mortality rates to draw conclusions and judgements on the UK government's handling of the 2020 Coronavirus pandemic crisis.

No squirming, no shifting the goalposts, no "semantics" just copy/paste the post.

(As an aside, the first time you mentioned raw mortality rates was in response to my comment about the Treasury Select Committee. It's somewhat strange that you claimed that was your argument all along but hadn't used referred to mortality rates until that point.)

[aggi]

Funny, but you weren’t so worried about it being premature to make a judgement when you said

Did you not get the memo? Premature judgements are fine if you're praising the government. It's only an issue if you're criticising the government.

I'm sure there's a very good reason for this. So good in fact that Ringo refuses to tell anyone what it is.

[Damo]

Typical of the tories to expect people to clean the inside of their own windows

Screenshot_20200512-130721_Twitter.jpg (504.59 KiB) Viewed 3693 times

[Grumps]

Common sense!!!

The older you are the more at risk you are.

You have spent enough time on this thread and should know that.

Good try

Of course the older you get the higher the risk, just like a 40yr old is more at risk than a 20yr old, are they then in a high risk category

It was the wording that seem to imply that the over 60s had been put in a specific high risk category which normally means putting restrictions on what they can do, like the over 70s. And I don't think that's the case

[Grumps]

Just drawing that assertion the data above Grumps, caring for your welfare. I’m perhaps being a bit over protective of you though - need you alive for the support on this thread

Very kind, thankyou
I thought you were saying there was a specific high risk category which included the over 60s.iam aware that the older you are the higher the risk, but as yet I don't think there's any restrictions on the over 60s, like there is on over 70s

Dont worry, I intend to be around for a while. There's more chance of me falling to high blood pressure from reading this forum than anything else at the moment

[NewClaret]

Typical of the tories to expect people to clean the inside of their own windows
Screenshot_20200512-130721_Twitter.jpg

They’re not called the nasty party for nothing!!

I’ve just read that profile and it typifies the anti-Tory brigade perfectly. Basically about 20 posts a day picking fault at anything and everything, the most ludicrous being that Raab said window cleaners could operate without coming inside the house. Maybe she also wanted a 15 minute speech from Boris outlining the exact circumstances under which window cleaners could operate?

[Grumps]

They’re not called the nasty party for nothing!!

I’ve just read that profile and it typifies the anti-Tory brigade perfectly. Basically about 20 posts a day picking fault at anything and everything, the most ludicrous being that Raab said window cleaners could operate without coming inside the house. Maybe she also wanted a 15 minute speech from Boris outlining the exact circumstances under which window cleaners could operate?

The fact is, window cleaners CAN work without going inside
We've never had a window cleaner clean ours inside, but people do, and like everything else at this time, they would have to give that particular part of their cleaning regime a miss.

If that's all they've got to criticise they are struggling.

[tiger76]

The fact is, window cleaners CAN work without going inside
We've never had a window cleaner clean ours inside, but people do, and like everything else at this time, they would have to give that particular part of their cleaning regime a miss.

If that's all they've got to criticise they are struggling.

It's the Twiiterati crowd Grumps,of course they've got to find something to snipe about the Tories,it's their day job,i'd have thought most people would be able to clean their own windows,especially if their off work sat on their backsides,now clearly there will be expectations to this,but if i could save money at this time,i'd certainly be doing so.

Clean your own windows you lazy blighters.

[Volvoclaret]

My downstairs maid cleans the inside of the windows here at Volvo Villas.

[quoonbeatz]

Today is genuinely the first day I've ever heard of a windowcleaner cleaning the insides of windows.

[TVC15]

Mmmm ?
Do all these blokes who think their window cleaners are coming inside their houses to “clean their windows” also have wives and girlfriends who have rather painful headaches on “windows” day ?

[Jakubclaret]

The fact is, window cleaners CAN work without going inside
We've never had a window cleaner clean ours inside, but people do, and like everything else at this time, they would have to give that particular part of their cleaning regime a miss.

If that's all they've got to criticise they are struggling.

Pointless exercise he doesn’t go by the name Arthur does he Similar to toasting 1 side/half of a slice of bread.

[Jakubclaret]

Today is genuinely the first day I've ever heard of a windowcleaner cleaning the insides of windows.

I wouldn’t employ a window cleaner who didn’t & with the same quote, fairs fair I wouldn’t make him redundant on a rainy day when he hardly earns his corn & don’t expect him to do my velux on my insistence H&S grounds.

[Grumps]

Pointless exercise he doesn’t go by the name Arthur does he Similar to toasting 1 side/half of a slice of bread.

Not really. Someone else cleans the inside.

[Jakubclaret]

Not really. Someone else cleans the inside.

Ok fair enough if I did mine I’d knock him down 50%, I don’t mind paying him providing he’s reliable & efficient it’s all you can ask really, he gets 4 Murphys at Xmas & never grumbles.

[tiger76]

Weekly Covid-19 update: 3,213 deaths recorded by NRS

A total of 3,213 Scots deaths have been linked to Covid-19, official figures show.

The National Records of Scotland (NRS) figures indicate 415 people died in the week ending 10 May, a decrease of 110 from the previous week.

The figures are higher than the daily figure announced by Nicola Sturgeon because they include all cases where Covid-19 is mentioned on a death certificate, even if the patient had not been tested.

More than half (57%) of deaths occurred in care homes, though this is down from 60% last week.

People living in the most deprived areas of Scotland were 2.3 times more likely to die with Covid-19 than those living in the least deprived areas.

[martin_p]

Boris Johnson telling bare faced lies about the advice on care homes at PMQs today, there’s a shock.

[tiger76]

Coronavirus in Scotland: Scottish death rate continues to fall

The number of people dying with coronavirus in Scotland has fallen for the second week in a row.

The National Records of Scotland said 415 deaths have been linked to the virus in the past week - 110 fewer than the week before.

There has also been a drop in the number of people dying in care homes.

But the figures suggested that people living in the most deprived areas were more than twice as likely to die than those in the least deprived.

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the drop in deaths "offers further and sustained signs of hope", but said she would continue to "err on the side of caution" with lockdown restrictions.

The total number of people whose deaths have been linked to Covid-19 now stands at 3,213.

The data showed that 76% of these deaths were of people aged 75 and over, and 91% of those who died in April had an underlying health condition.

The most common pre-existing conditions were dementia and Alzheimer's disease - accounting for 31% of all deaths involving coronavirus, followed by ischaemic heart disease at 13%.

More than half of all registered deaths involving the virus continue to be happening in care homes, but the percentage has fallen from 60% to 57% and the number of deaths from 314 to 238.

The total number of people whose deaths have been linked to Covid-19 now stands at 3,213.

The data showed that 76% of these deaths were of people aged 75 and over, and 91% of those who died in April had an underlying health condition.

The most common pre-existing conditions were dementia and Alzheimer's disease - accounting for 31% of all deaths involving coronavirus, followed by ischaemic heart disease at 13%.

More than half of all registered deaths involving the virus continue to be happening in care homes, but the percentage has fallen from 60% to 57% and the number of deaths from 314 to 238.

NRS said the total number of deaths registered in Scotland in the week of 4 to 10 May was 1,434 (39%) more than the average number of deaths registered in the same week over the last five years.

This was a decrease of 245 from the number of so-called "excess deaths" registered in the previous week.

Of these 400 excess deaths, 96% were deaths where COVID-19 was the underlying cause.

Some people in England who cannot work from home returned to their workplaces on Wednesday, as the UK government begins easing some of its lockdown measures.

Ms Sturgeon has said she does not yet believe it would be safe to introduce a similar relaxation in Scotland, warning that the country still had a "long way to go" despite signs that the impact of the virus is reducing.

She said it was "entirely legitimate" for England to move out of lockdown more quickly than Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland if it was backed by scientific evidence - and stressed this was not evidence of the four-nation approach breaking up.

The first minister said data suggested that the progress being made in Scotland was still "fragile", and that lifting restrictions too soon could allow the virus to "run out of control again".

She added: "My judgement is that it is better now to err on the side of caution - I would rather the price of getting that wrong is people staying in lockdown for another few days, not measured in unnecessary deaths."

[tiger76]

Further and sustained signs of hope in figures, says FM

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon confirms 13,929 people have tested positive for Covid-19, an increase of 166 from yesterday.

1,534 patients are in hospital with a suspected or confirmed case (down 84), with 70 being treated in intensive care (down 11).

A further 61 people who tested positive have died, taking the total to 1,973 deaths in Scotland by that measure.

This is a lower figure than the 3,213 deaths confirmed by NRS earlier because it only includes those who have tested positive for coronavirus, rather than where it is suspected to have contributed.

Ms Sturgeon says the figures "offer further and sustained signs of hope" due to the death rate falling for a second week in a row.

If transmission rates continue to fall we will be able to gradually ease restrictions but for now the message remains stay at home, she adds.

[tiger76]

Boris Johnson telling bare faced lies about the advice on care homes at PMQs today, there’s a shock.

Starmer accuses PM of inaccurate comments

The Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has accused the prime minister of making inaccurate comments about government guidance on care homes and asked him to “correct the record” in the House of Commons.

Sir Keir has written to Boris Johnson regarding an exchange at Prime Minister’s Questions this afternoon in which Mr Johnson said “it wasn’t true” that advice had said it was unlikely that people in care homes would become infected .

In his letter the Labour leader says “at this time of national crisis it is more important than ever that government ministers are accurate in the information they give” adding that “I expect you to come to the House of Commons at the earliest opportunity to correct the record”.

I wouldn't hold your breath Keir.

[dsr]

Pointless exercise he doesn’t go by the name Arthur does he Similar to toasting 1 side/half of a slice of bread.

To be fair:

1. A lot of people find it easier to reach the inside of the top floor windows than the outside.

2. A lot of people - possibly the same ones - not only have a house that is cleaner than the street outside, but also find that the outside of the house gets a lot more rain, wind, and weather generally, and a lot more traffic pollution than the inside. Hence the inside of the windows doesn't get as mucky as the outside.

[taio]

Starmer accuses PM of inaccurate comments

The Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has accused the prime minister of making inaccurate comments about government guidance on care homes and asked him to “correct the record” in the House of Commons.

Sir Keir has written to Boris Johnson regarding an exchange at Prime Minister’s Questions this afternoon in which Mr Johnson said “it wasn’t true” that advice had said it was unlikely that people in care homes would become infected .

In his letter the Labour leader says “at this time of national crisis it is more important than ever that government ministers are accurate in the information they give” adding that “I expect you to come to the House of Commons at the earliest opportunity to correct the record”.

I wouldn't hold your breath Keir.

The response should be something along these lines:

It was clear that the guidance in question, which was withdrawn on 13 March, was based on the position at the time when it was deemed that there was no transmission of Covid-19 in the community. Of course there is now sustained community transmission occurring across the UK including care homes, therefore the guidance and support to care homes has changed accordingly.

[Jakubclaret]

To be fair:

1. A lot of people find it easier to reach the inside of the top floor windows than the outside.

2. A lot of people - possibly the same ones - not only have a house that is cleaner than the street outside, but also find that the outside of the house gets a lot more rain, wind, and weather generally, and a lot more traffic pollution than the inside. Hence the inside of the windows doesn't get as mucky as the outside.

It's something I've always insisted upon, I do the same at the Indian & Chinese, go on throw me some poppodums/prawn crackers in & dips or when buying a new TV go on sweeten it with a free HDMI cable ect, I do ok being cheeky.

[tiger76]

The response should be something along these lines:

It was clear that the guidance in question, which was withdrawn on 13 March, was based on the position at the time when it was deemed that there was no transmission of Covid-19 in the community. Of course there is now sustained community transmission occurring across the UK including care homes, therefore the guidance and support to care homes has changed accordingly.

That makes perfect sense to me,so why didn't the PM state something to that effect.i don't think it's unfair to claim that the response in care homes has been poor at best,and the government didn't take note of what was happening in both Italy and Spain,the number 1 aim of this government was ensuring the NHS wasn't overwhelmed,well that goal was achieved,but sadly the care sector has suffered as a result,hence the many tragic stories emanating from there.Why won't the PM and the government admit they made mistakes,we get it they're human and mistakes will happen,just be honest about them.

Keir Starmer has yet again run rings around the PM,it's one thing facing calamity Corbyn at the Despatch Box,it's quite another facing someone of Starmer's inquiring mind.

[martin_p]

The response should be something along these lines:

It was clear that the guidance in question, which was withdrawn on 13 March, was based on the position at the time when it was deemed that there was no transmission of Covid-19 in the community. Of course there is now sustained community transmission occurring across the UK including care homes, therefore the guidance and support to care homes has changed accordingly.

Yes, but the question was ‘was the guidance changed too late’ which is when Johnson denied that the guidance said that (seemingly not understanding that when it’s written down and published it can very easily be checked). Johnson is going to have to change his tactics at PMQs. He needs to understand that Starmer will have done his research and accept that in all likelihood the information he bases his questions on will be true and easily verifiable.

[Devils_Advocate]

Keir Starmer, 13 May 2020

“Earlier this year, and until 12 March, the government’s own official advice was, and I’m quoting from it, ‘it remains very unlikely that people receiving care in a care home will become infected.’”

Boris Johnson, 13 May 2020

“It wasn’t true that the advice said that.”

What did the Govt official advics say?

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus ... -guidance/

[Zlatan]

Keir Starmer, 13 May 2020

“Earlier this year, and until 12 March, the government’s own official advice was, and I’m quoting from it, ‘it remains very unlikely that people receiving care in a care home will become infected.’”

Boris Johnson, 13 May 2020

“It wasn’t true that the advice said that.”

What did the Govt official advics say?

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus ... -guidance/

But what would Corbyn have done...?

[Devils_Advocate]

But what would Corbyn have done...?

Take you pick

• Blamed the Jews

• Asked the IRA for advice

• Nothing because he would be to busy eating the rich to care

[Zlatan]

Take you pick

• Blamed the Jews

• Asked the IRA for advice

• Nothing because he would be to busy eating the rich to care

Apologies DA, I thought I had posted on this thread but it was the Trump one...

That’s the one defence left isn’t it. I’ve noticed that any critique of any of the government on social media at all, even if it is attempting to praise them (furlough scheme) is met with “but what would commie Corbyn have done?”

It’s going to be the go to yardstick for governments of the future isn’t it... for governments of any type - yes, we seriously screwed up, but just think how bad it would have been if Corbyn was in charge...

[Devils_Advocate]

Apologies DA, I thought I had posted on this thread but it was the Trump one...

Id seen the Trump thread and knew you were being sarcastic - I was just playing along

[CombatClaret]

87k tests on 61k people today.

We're going to be nowhere near where we need to be in a couple weeks time when 'Common sense' comes home to roost.

[Grumps]

87k tests on 61k people today.

We're going to be nowhere near where we need to be in a couple weeks time when 'Common sense' comes home to roost.

How many people applied for tests?

[CombatClaret]

How many people applied for tests?

No idea, but if we have excess capacity we should be testing people in high risk occupations regardless of If they apply or not. Get some coordinated pro-active measures in place and stop blaming the public for not doing this or that.

[NewClaret]

No idea, but if we have excess capacity we should be testing people in high risk occupations regardless of If they apply or not. Get some coordinated pro-active measures in place and stop blaming the public for not doing this or that.

As the old saying goes... “you can take a horse to water...”

[Grumps]

No idea, but if we have excess capacity we should be testing people in high risk occupations regardless of If they apply or not. Get some coordinated pro-active measures in place and stop blaming the public for not doing this or that.

The capacity is there ready for the track and trace, plus extended testing in hot spots

But if only 87,000 were eligible for tests yesterday, that's how many get done

Might be worth checking before criticising

[joey13]

Because you cannot social distance, it's common sense

The risk of spreading outdoors, whilst social distancing is almost nil.

Got to be worth a whoosh

[Zlatan]

No idea, but if we have excess capacity we should be testing people in high risk occupations regardless of If they apply or not. Get some coordinated pro-active measures in place and stop blaming the public for not doing this or that.

I had an outpatient day treatment appointment today and I asked why all patients weren’t routinely tested, and the answer was - “ that’s a good idea, we’ll suggest it”

[tiger76]

The capacity is there ready for the track and trace, plus extended testing in hot spots

But if only 87,000 were eligible for tests yesterday, that's how many get done

Might be worth checking before criticising

That seems to be the strategy if the daily briefing is anything to go by.

Testing to be focused on 'hotspots'

Deputy Chief Medical Officer for England Jenny Harries then goes through the latest data.

She says transport usage is down by 50% across all modes and it is important to continue to watch these figures, saying they are a key indicator of how successful social distancing is proving.

On testing, she says the total capacity is still considerably above the number of daily tests.

She says this extra headroom will be used to increase tests in “hotspots” such as care homes and hospitals.

Jenrick challenged on care homes
BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg asks why can't the government get a grip on care homes.

Jenrick replies that care homes are "at the absolute heart of everything we are doing", saying the PM has announced £600m in extra financial support for care homes in England.

This will fund changes in care homes, including better infection control and less rotation of staff, he says.

When challenged that there were not enough tests carried out, he says he is "sure there is more we can do" and they have to make sure the testing capacity focuses on those who need it - like caregivers.

[tiger76]

Some positives?

Latest UK statistics and graphics
We should be hearing from the UK government in the next few minutes.

These are the latest graphics of coronavirus cases, tests and deaths in the United Kingdom.

The figures show 3,242 new cases in the last day, 87,063 tests and 494 deaths, bringing the total number of recorded deaths in the UK to 33,186.

Lowest number of new daily cases since March.

NI Nightingale hospital being stood down
The Nightingale Hospital in Northern Ireland is to be temporarily stood down, the health minister has said.

Belfast City Hospital's tower block was turned into a 230-bed unit for critically ill patients last month.

Robin Swann said the facility could still be used, if modelling suggested a second wave of the virus.

[CombatClaret]

On testing, she says the total capacity is still considerably above the number of daily tests.

She says this extra headroom will be used to increase tests in “hotspots” such as care homes and hospitals.

There should be clarification, are these kits that are being saved for another day, and even if you save these kits do we have capacity to process them later?
A lab test you fail to do one day is just a lab test lost, not one saved for later.

Government is repeatedly failing to hit a target it set two weeks ago, it says it will take nearly four weeks to test all care homes and we're meant to be starting a nation wide track & trace scheme at some point too?
Amazing too we have the capacity for 110,000 tests today but somehow achieved 122,000 at the end of April...

[fanzone]

I'm probably being very very thick but someone who tests negative today could test positive in 3 days time because they have carried on with life. How many tests are we really going to need to do daily or weekly to know how many have had or got the disease. It just seems like a great big goose chase to me and inevitably it's going to be something we will have to catch and hopefully live with.

[taio]

The vast majority will only be interested in being tested to see if they have got the virus if they have symptoms.

The antibody test once available will be a different story.

[Grumps]

There should be clarification, are these kits that are being saved for another day, and even if you save these kits do we have capacity to process them later?
A lab test you fail to do one day is just a lab test lost, not one saved for later.

Government is repeatedly failing to hit a target it set two weeks ago, it says it will take nearly four weeks to test all care homes and we're meant to be starting a nation wide track & trace scheme at some point too?
Amazing too we have the capacity for 110,000 tests today but somehow achieved 122,000 at the end of April...

If the government hadn't have mentioned a target, we'd all be saying "wow, 87,000 tests yesterday, that's amazing"

[Grumps]

The vast majority will only be interested in being tested to see if they have got the virus if they have symptoms.

The antibody test once available will be a different story.

Correct. That's why they don't just do general testing, it would give people false convidence, forgetting they could catch it as they walk away from the testing centre.

[Devils_Advocate]

When someone tests positive then easy access to accurate testing with a fast turnaround for results will help play a key role in preventing large swathes of people needing to self isolate.

The amount of people with some link to the person tested positive can grow exponentially if people have to isolate and wait for symptoms or have to go through an elongated process of testing themselves. This could really hamstring the ability of businesses and people to get back to some kind of normal

[CombatClaret]

If the government hadn't have mentioned a target, we'd all be saying "wow, 87,000 tests yesterday, that's amazing"

EX6LLEeWAAAfpOG.jpg (470.98 KiB) Viewed 2940 times

No, no they would not.

I agree they should not have set a target, so they then didn't have to give into their inherent dishonestly to cook the numbers and achieve it.

[Spijed]

The antibody test once available will be a different story.

Seems it's now available:

https://www.med-technews.com/news/covid ... to-public/

[taio]

Seems it's now available:

https://www.med-technews.com/news/covid ... to-public/

It's an approved home test that will ensure mass production and mass testing rather than lab testing.

[NewClaret]

If some people aren’t intelligent enough to work out what two metres is then they’ll have trouble with more complicated rules.

People have had it too easy in this country and there’s a sub culture of people who have no respect for any rules. Lockdown would be a doddle for anyone who lived behind the former Iron Curtain. For people who have had street parties I wouldn’t have been averse to the use of tear gas, tasers or even rubber bullets to sort the stupid ignorant idiots out.

Agree entirely. My street had one. I came back from my daily exercise and couldn’t believe what I was seeing. I went straight in and someone must’ve called the police because they arrived shortly after.

Would not have objected if they'd all been tear gassed or water cannoned. We’ve turned in to a right nation of snowflakes.