Trump on Torture

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:36 pm

POTUS has said today that he believes in waterboarding as an interrogation method: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38753000

Personally, I support waterboarding suspects when it's reasonable to assume they are withholding information regarding threats to the public. In fact, in certain situations it would be immoral not to do so.

When done correctly, waterboarding leaves no permanent damage and US special forces actually undergo waterboarding themselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboar ... l_training.

You can see Tim Kennedy (US special forces, UFC middleweight) demonstrating the proper technique here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpdhwM_hnAA

Some good thoughts about torture and morality by Sam Harris here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYUPr6cH294&t=1611s

Detractors like to say that there are studies to show that torture only ever yields false information. However, this has been called out as bull**** by former US intelligence officers like Jose Rodriguez and Todd Wilcox who say that waterboarding has yielding accurate info.

Thoughts? I'm sure this post will kick off a really constructive and interesting discussion *snigger*

Melbourneclaret · Post by **Melbourneclaret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:40 pm

"He's one of our own, he's one of our ownnnnn, Jose Rodriguez, he's one of our own."

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:40 pm

Its torture.

Someone ducks my head underwater repeatedly and I'll tell them anything.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:43 pm

Are we allowed to nominate people we know?

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:47 pm

If he wants to buy them season tickets for Deadwood that's his choice, cruel, inhuman and degrading but it would make me cough up.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:50 pm

What if you torture someone who is innocent!?

lucs86 · Post by **lucs86** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:55 pm

Banning it seemed like progress

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:58 pm

Trump also said he would consult Defence Secretary James Mattis and CIA director Mike Pompeo and "if they don't want to do it that's fine".

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:58 pm

I do have some concerns with this. I see it as a slippery slope to tyranny. Remember: those who do the torturing are the same ones who will determine who the terrorists are. The ethical concerns are real too, but at the same time I agree that if it further enables us to extract potentially life saving information from people who are often quite honestly lower than filth, it's a hard call.

Sutton-Claret · Post by **Sutton-Claret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:00 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:What if you torture someone who is innocent!?

Personally, I'm for it. If you have a suspect with whom you are 100% sure he is withholding information - then crack on.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:02 pm

100% sure though?

How can you be 100% sure that he's holding information, and how can you be 100% sure he's telling you the truth?

What if he says something under torture that means resources that would have been in the right place are in the wrong place?

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:04 pm

But if he's or her are not withholding anything? As above thin line if you ever can be a 100% certain.

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:09 pm

I don't think you can ever be 100% sure.

But lets say you're 95% sure and believe that you can extract life-saving information from a person by putting them through (admittedly severe) discomfort without causing any lasting damage?

On the balance of saving lives vs temporarily hurting someone I think you have to go ahead.

Sutton-Claret · Post by **Sutton-Claret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:11 pm

You can never be 100% sure.

I'm talking about torturing people who have been caught in the act of carrying out an act of terrorism or planning to do so. For example - the shoebomb fella who cocked up blowing up the plane with a bomb hidden in his show - would it be morally wrong to waterboard him to try and gain some intelligence. Fair enough he might try and bluff his way out but I think eventually most people would give in under extreme circumstances.

Is there an alternative?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:15 pm

Yeah, convert them into Burnley fans and get them to sit through the January transfer window, ALL THE TIME.

Will break them in hours.

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:22 pm

go for it, guys. terrorists kill innocent people, without mercy. isis kill innocent people and behead enemy soldiers. if by torturing a terrorist you can save innocent people who could object?

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:23 pm

Or make them organise Rovers next protest idea.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:27 pm

Time to try it out on Trump so that he can come clean on his life as a tax dodger.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:51 pm

Obviously all those Salem and Pendle witches subjected to the ducking stool etc were as guilty as hell.

Imagine what they could have done !!

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:56 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Time to try it out on Trump so that he can come clean on his life as a tax dodger.

Come on ABC, DT has said everyone can see his tax returns when his books have been audited. Now I wonder when that audit is going to finish ......... hmmmmmm?

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:08 pm

I've got no issues with it. The is working out whether what they tell you is really correct / relevant / still in date.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:29 pm

No issues with it? It's illegal ffs

And why all the focus on water boarding as a specific methodology? What about putting a match under your belle end - why doesn't that come up as a methodology?

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:33 pm

If you torture someone, they may tell you what you want to hear, but not necessarily what you need to know.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:38 pm

Terrorists hardly kill anyone in the USA in comparison to people who use guns to kill others.

I'll bet no-one from the NRA will have to face the same methods of torture!

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:58 pm

Exactly sure Donald and his cronies wouldn't want to be offending the NRA by torturing any gun toting maniac who is about to embark on a killing spree.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:04 pm

With these kinds of things if they mistreat the innocent the torturers (the people doing the torturing and those higher up the chain of command who are also responsible must suffer the consequences (not being able to hold an office of responsibility (heavy financial penalties and imprisonment - that should make them more determined not to subject just anyone to torture)

It's the same argument for Capital Punishment - if you kill the wrong person - those involved in the miscarriage of justice must be sentenced to death - make sure you get the right person to start with. (Sounds extreme but it's meant as a deterrent to prevent miscarriages of justice/dodgy police and court practices)

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:06 pm

Misread the thread title thought it said Trump or Turtle. DT every time for me!

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:07 pm

It's not illegal if you have a waiver, or a Presidential decree saying you can. It's not like the police are doing it to drunk and disorderlies......

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:09 pm

The leader of the uncivilised world.

All those on Death Row...beware...he has his pen ready.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:21 pm

To beat the terrorists we have to become the terrorists. That seems to be the attitude, dumb as it is, of some people.
Torture doesn't work. It's unreliable and barbaric.

Even the CIA says it doesn't work.

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:23 pm

American terrorist expert on Radio 4 this morning said "US Forces used a razor blade to cut one suspect's testicles everyday for 18 months".

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:24 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:To beat the terrorists we have to become the terrorists. That seems to be the attitude, dumb as it is, of some people.
Torture doesn't work. It's unreliable and barbaric.

Even the CIA says it doesn't work.

Doesn't stop them using it.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:26 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:American terrorist expert on Radio 4 this morning said "US Forces used a razor blade to cut one suspect's testicles everyday for 18 months".

You've also got to question the mindset of those carrying out these acts on suspects as well.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its torture.

Someone ducks my head underwater repeatedly and I'll tell them anything.

It's worse than that.

By the time water gets to this point in your head you've already expelled all the air in your lungs trying to eject the water your torturer has been pouring over your face, so you can't eject this water. If you breath in from here your lungs fill up. This is why most people can only stand a few seconds of it, they don't understand that it's not the same as having your head dunked under water where you can hold your breath for minutes.

brigante · Post by **brigante** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:32 pm

Spijed wrote:Terrorists hardly kill anyone in the USA in comparison to people who use guns to kill others.

I'll bet no-one from the NRA will have to face the same methods of torture!

Since 2002, more people have been killed on US soil by toddlers with guns than have been killed by terrorists.

True fact.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:34 pm

brigante wrote:Since 2002, more people have been killed on US soil by toddlers with guns than have been killed by terrorists.

True fact.

All the more reason to remove these toddlers noses and refuse to give it back.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:44 pm

brigante wrote:Since 2002, more people have been killed on US soil by toddlers with guns than have been killed by terrorists.

True fact.

What about since 2001? Just curious.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:44 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:I do have some concerns with this. I see it as a slippery slope to tyranny. Remember: those who do the torturing are the same ones who will determine who the terrorists are. The ethical concerns are real too, but at the same time I agree that if it further enables us to extract potentially life saving information from people who are often quite honestly lower than filth, it's a hard call.

Oh, so now you're seeing Trump's penchant for tyrannical thinking? What, was suggesting protesters whould be beaten, free press be curtailed, his opponents are "enemies", that millions who didn't vote for him voted illegally, promises of mass deportations, internment camps for illegal immigrants, targetting the families of terrorists, that martial law could be used to tackle crime in cities, investigating only places that voted against him for voter fraud, a database of people who follow a certain religion, etc. etc. It's only now that you think he's heading towards tyranny?

Well welcome to ******* reality. Where the **** have you been these last 18 months, during which you've been mocking people who have been saying exactly what i've quoted you as just saying?

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:45 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Oh, so now you're seeing Trump's penchant for tyrannical thinking? What, was suggesting protesters whould be beaten, free press be curtailed, his opponents are "enemies", that millions who didn't vote for him voted illegally, promises of mass deportations, internment camps for illegal immigrants, targetting the families of terrorists, that martial law could be used to tackle crime in cities, investigating only places that voted against him for voter fraud, a database of people who follow a certain religion, etc. etc. It's only now that you think he's heading towards tyranny?

Well welcome to ******* reality. Where the **** have you been these last 18 months, during which you've been mocking people who have been saying exactly what i've quoted you as just saying?

**** off you sad ****.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:48 pm

Torture by Trump has a bad smell to it.

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:48 pm

Well it was nice while it lasted.

Thought this thread was pretty civil and there was some decent discussion in the first few posts.

A big thanks to Turtle and his dizzying intellect for making sure that didn't continue.

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:50 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Oh, so now you're seeing Trump's penchant for tyrannical thinking? What, was suggesting protesters whould be beaten, free press be curtailed, his opponents are "enemies", that millions who didn't vote for him voted illegally, promises of mass deportations, internment camps for illegal immigrants, targetting the families of terrorists, that martial law could be used to tackle crime in cities, investigating only places that voted against him for voter fraud, a database of people who follow a certain religion, etc. etc. It's only now that you think he's heading towards tyranny?

Well welcome to ******* reality. Where the **** have you been these last 18 months, during which you've been mocking people who have been saying exactly what i've quoted you as just saying?

This post really reminded me of this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pCjO3Bha-U

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:50 pm

LongsideFacingUp wrote:Well it was nice while it lasted.

Thought this thread was pretty civil and there was some decent discussion in the first few posts.

A big thanks to Turtle and his dizzying intellect for making sure that didn't continue.

What is it i've said that you have a problem with?

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:51 pm

Which would offend you more:

1. Terrorist questioned using questionable techniques but an attack is prevented.
2. Terrorist talked to aggressively, no information comes out, and innocents die?

No ifs, buts, maybes. Simple choice.

* I appreciate it's rarely that simple....

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:54 pm

box_of_frogs wrote:Which would offend you more:

1. Terrorist questioned using questionable techniques but an attack is prevented.
2. Terrorist talked to aggressively, no information comes out, and innocents die?

No ifs, buts, maybes. Simple choice.

* I appreciate it's rarely that simple....

You missed one:

3. Terrorist talks, leads them into a booby trap?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:55 pm

box_of_frogs wrote:Which would offend you more:

1. Terrorist questioned using questionable techniques but an attack is prevented.
2. Terrorist talked to aggressively, no information comes out, and innocents die?

No ifs, buts, maybes. Simple choice.

* I appreciate it's rarely that simple....

It's not about offending me, it's about us being able to call ourselves civilised and humane, and our enemies not. It's about not being like them.

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:57 pm

Spijed wrote:You missed one:

3. Terrorist talks, leads them into a booby trap?

OH SNAP!

Dun, dun, duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!

(It's an interesting point, the drama of it just made me chuckle)

I think US Navy SEALS are pretty capable of dealing with any booby traps that terrorists might try on.

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:57 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's not about offending me, it's about us being able to call ourselves civilised and humane, and our enemies not. It's about not being like them.

But it's not about saving innocent lives obviously.

That would be trivial.

pureclaret · Post by **pureclaret** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:02 pm

Snodgrass could be given the benefit of this new recruitment tactic just to ensure that he gets his signature in the correct northern claret box

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:07 pm

What irritates me about it is he describes it as fighting fire with fire. But punishment and interrogation are two very different entities, you aren't necessarily dealing with guilty men. You cannot justify torture as a mechanism for meting out justice