Should Niang have been sent off?

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:55 pm

Although I hate the rule where celebrating with fans/removing shirt when scoring is a yellow card offence, Niang surely should have received his second yellow today when he did just that?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:56 pm

Absolutely - already posted that it was the one mistake I thought the referee made

MT03ALG · Post by **MT03ALG** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:00 am

The ref bottled it. Inconsistent refereeing causes problems all the time.

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:03 am

Podl (sp?) how he wasn't already on a yellow before the penalty due to persistent fouling I don't know,

I like Michael Oliver and he was spot on with the Hendrick red card but other decisions in the game today he got wrong.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:08 am

The ref would never want to send a player off for celebrating a goal. Give him a yellow, fine, but they'd never give the second yellow in that situation.

Pretend you didn't see it was the order of the day I think.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:10 am

Should have gone for clattering Ward. You want consistency; if Hendrick goes, he has to go too.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:11 am

Ian Wright reckons Niang slipped when he fouled Ward early in the game.
Personally, I think that is b*locks.
He is completely out of control and if Ward hadn't seen it coming, think it would have been a red card.
The ball had already gone.

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:15 am

Tony Gayle said when he hit Ward it was clumsy and shouldn't have been a yellow because of this reason,

So can we argue Hendrick challenge was "clumsy" therefore wasn't a red and we can appeal?

It really did make me laugh, almost as stupid as the "it's too early in the game for any cards"

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:28 am

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:36 am

By the letter of the law? probably
Would I like to see players booked / Sent off for what he did? No
Is it a little embarrassing that after that performance that Sean Dyche went straight to the ref's room after the game to complain about this? A little.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:40 am

We either have laws and apply them or we don't. He should have walked, no question.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:50 am

claretburns wrote:Tony Gayle said when he hit Ward it was clumsy and shouldn't have been a yellow because of this reason,

So can we argue Hendrick challenge was "clumsy" therefore wasn't a red and we can appeal?

It really did make me laugh, almost as stupid as the "it's too early in the game for any cards"

Spot on. It's never too early for cards. But it's often too late after the game has already been ruined by constant fouling.

As for clumsy challenges, it makes no difference. You can clumsily break someone's leg. It's still a foul.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:56 am

quoonbeatz wrote:Should have gone for clattering Ward. You want consistency; if Hendrick goes, he has to go too.

Disagree, it wasn't a dangerous lunge with studs up, it was a clumsy strikers sliding tackle.

Bobzuruncle · Post by **Bobzuruncle** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:46 am

just seen highlights and sorry but hendrick's challenge was clumsy at worst, studs weren't up and watford player made a meal of it - don't see them given reds so early in the game.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:15 am

quoonbeatz wrote:Should have gone for clattering Ward. You want consistency; if Hendrick goes, he has to go

`internet

I couldn`t agree with you more. Watching on t`internet, I think it was cockney-boy, ex-Rover Tony Gale who had the temerity to pretty much laugh off the Niang challenge on Ward, suggesting there was no intent whatsoever and he just mis-timed it. Hendrick`s of course a red all day long but Niang`s wasn`t far behind. Saying all this, how on God`s green earth Rodwell`s challenge the other day didn`t get a red sums it all up.

turfytopper · Post by **turfytopper** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:11 am

ksrclaret wrote:The ref would never want to send a player off for celebrating a goal. Give him a yellow, fine, but they'd never give the second yellow in that situation.

Pretend you didn't see it was the order of the day I think.

Spot on....bit disappointed that we are expecting a guy to be sent off for what he did... Celebrating a goal is part of the joy of football..the referee would have been run out of town and severely criticised if he'd have taken action...he hardly went over the barrier.
When the red was produced for Hendrick it was a surprise..that said my view wasn't great. Having seen it on tv he got it right... Though a weaker referee would have shown a yellow.

arise_sir_charge · Post by **arise_sir_charge** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:20 am

I am sure that everyone who watches football, fans especially will be in full agreement that it's a particularly stupid rule and shouldn't be a booking/red card.

However the rule is the rule and I suspect the ref would have booked him had he not already booked him earlier in the game. He shouldn't get away with it just because he's already broken another rule.

It's for refs to apply the rules not decide which ones to apply and which ones to ignore.

Would it have been a poor, weak sending off, yes it would. Do I personally want to see people sent off for such things, no I don't. Should it have been a sending off, yes it should.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:56 am

quoonbeatz wrote:We either have laws and apply them or we don't. He should have walked, no question.

Which law says he should have been booked for his celebration?

Heathclaret · Post by **Heathclaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:02 am

Tall Paul wrote:Which law says he should have been booked for his celebration?

The rule is quoted in the original post. Not the best rule, I agree, but a bookable offence none the less.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:03 am

Tall Paul wrote:Which law says he should have been booked for his celebration?

"While it is permissible for a player to demonstrate his joy when a goal has been scored, the celebration must not be excessive."

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:10 am

...."I suspect the ref would have booked him had he not already booked him earlier in the game."

This is the heart of the matter. Happens all the time.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:15 am

Heathclaret wrote:The rule is quoted in the original post. Not the best rule, I agree, but a bookable offence none the less.

Got a link?

Spijed wrote:
"While it is permissible for a player to demonstrate his joy when a goal has been scored, the celebration must not be excessive."

What's the definition of excessive? All I can find is that the player isn't allowed to climb the perimeter fence, which Niang didn't do.

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:17 am

A player must be cautioned for:
climbing onto a perimeter fence
gesturing in a provocative, derisory or inflammatory way
covering the head or face with a mask or other similar item
removing the shirt or covering the head with the shirt

I'm thinking not a booking.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:22 am

I forget who was referee against Bournemouth but after Boyd scored who was on a yellow the ref came straight over and very quickly told Boyd in no uncertain terms to get back on the pitch or he would send him off. And Boyds celebration was quite muted compared to Niangs in that their was no contact with crowd etc.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:06 am

Just to clarify:- Simply - there is no such 'rule'. The Laws say

Celebration of a goal

Players can celebrate when a goal is scored, but the celebration must not be excessive; choreographed celebrations are not encouraged and must not cause excessive time-wasting.

Leaving the field of play to celebrate a goal is not a cautionable offence but players should return as soon as possible.

A player must be cautioned for:
- climbing onto a perimeter fence
- gesturing in a provocative, derisory or inflammatory way
- covering the head or face with a mask or other similar item
- removing the shirt or covering the head with the shirt

On that basis, Niang did not commit a cautionable offence as far as I could see.

minnieclaret · Post by **minnieclaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:08 am

Already been players sent off this season for celebrating with fans.
Letter of the law he should have gone.
I'm 50/50 on it. I can understand their ecstacy at scoring but they are delaying the restart.
Nobody else has mentioned Cholevas. He had a yellow and then clattered one of ours, my stream wasn't the best, on the halfway line. I fully expected that making it 10 apiece.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:11 am

Should've gone for two yellows. One of which was NOT the celebration. The ward challenge early on should've got him a yellow. The celebration was not a yellow for me. AND it would seem the rules back me up.

Cheshireclaret · Post by **Cheshireclaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:13 am

On the whole, whenever I watch a game reffed by Michael Oliver he seldom seems to get anything wrong and avoids the gurning, ostentatious gesturing and chest out style antics that the likes of Clattenburg and Dean appear to employ.

For me, he's probably the best referee we have right now and I think based on the above he could make a sound claim for not booking the player for the celebration. Many refs would, of course.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:13 am

bobinho wrote:Should've gone for two yellows. One of which was NOT the celebration. The ward challenge early on should've got him a yellow. The celebration was not a yellow for me. AND it would seem the rules back me up.

His challenge on Ward DID get him the yellow card.

Woody9229 · Post by **Woody9229** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:41 am

Just seen it and it is not like he jumped into the crowd and was very similar to what Conte did earlier in the day. Not a sending off for me and a tad embarrassing SD going in to refs room.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:48 am

It should have been a second yellow. But such is life and the game was gone by then.

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:01 am

If jumping into the crowd gets you a yellow then spare a thought for Cantona. He got a RED card BEFORE he jumped into the crowd.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:05 am

Clutching at straws here. Definitely not a red.

Pepperclaret · Post by **Pepperclaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:20 am

" "While it is permissible for a player to demonstrate his joy when a goal has been scored, the celebration must not be excessive."

One of the reasons for introducing the above was to discourage players running over to the crowd to celebrate which then results in fans 'spilling over' those that are seated in front of them and risking injuries. This sounds commonsense to me. Prior to this players were asked to refrain but this fell on stony ground.
It appears to be up to the discretion of the referee and there is the problem. Ignoring this particular referees' reluctantance to apply the rules I feel that if in yesterday's game the excessive celebration incident had preceded the so called 'clumsy' tackle yellow card offence then the referee would have had no choice but to book and red card him.
An example yesterday in the Villa v Forest game was the 2 x yellow cards given to Grealish resulting in his dismissal. His first a 'soft' yellow for kicking the ball away and his second for a 'hard yellow card' foul.
This is the problem with " a yellow is a yellow". Maybe we should have a third card "a half-yellow" for trivial offences but with suggestions like the introduction of "sin-bins" I feel we are on the verge of complicating the 'simple game' even further.

bob-the-scutter · Post by **bob-the-scutter** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:46 am

Goobs wrote:By the letter of the law? probably
Would I like to see players booked / Sent off for what he did? No
Is it a little embarrassing that after that performance that Sean Dyche went straight to the ref's room after the game to complain about this? A little.

Spot on mate!
Debut goal for his new club and some want him sent off for celebrating????
We`re all better than that

Hendrick`s sending off cost us the game, end of....let`s move on

Dy1geo · Post by **Dy1geo** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:53 am

Dyche to his credit is fantastic at deflecting away any criticism of his players to the officials and he does it such a great way as to avoid any possible FA charge. This season he has been good at pointing out the length of stoppage time etc but I think yesterday complaining about the celebration wasn't his finest hour. Imagine the outcry on here if we had held onto the draw at Arsenal and Wenger had asked about possible bookings for our players celebrating Andre's goal saying they were excessive. Whilst Niangs celebration grated it wasn't a bookable offence as he didn't jump onto the perimeter fence.

I don't know how long the offence of climbing onto a perimeter fence has been an offence in the rule book but Mike Conroy at Rotherham did just that in front of me and do the people on here suggesting Niang should have been booked believe Conroy should have got one

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:56 am

No. He was correctly booked for his challenge on Ward. And he was correctly not booked for his goal celebration.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:11 pm

Dy1geo wrote:Dyche to his credit is fantastic at deflecting away any criticism of his players to the officials and he does it such a great way as to avoid any possible FA charge. This season he has been good at pointing out the length of stoppage time etc but I think yesterday complaining about the celebration wasn't his finest hour. Imagine the outcry on here if we had held onto the draw at Arsenal and Wenger had asked about possible bookings for our players celebrating Andre's goal saying they were excessive. Whilst Niangs celebration grated it wasn't a bookable offence as he didn't jump onto the perimeter fence.

I don't know how long the offence of climbing onto a perimeter fence has been an offence in the rule book but Mike Conroy at Rotherham did just that in front of me and do the people on here suggesting Niang should have been booked believe Conroy should have got one

Spot on. Its embarrassing. Claret tinted spectacles!

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:38 pm

I certainly don't want to see players sent off for celebrating, it's a daft rule but it's still a rule.

As ever, it's a question of consistency.

Here's what Juan Mata was booked for earlier this season.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:55 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:I certainly don't want to see players sent off for celebrating, it's a daft rule but it's still a rule.

As ever, it's a question of consistency.

Here's what Juan Mata was booked for earlier this season.

It isn't a rule though. The rule is quoted above and there's no mention of players celebrating with the crowd.

Maybe the referee got it wrong when he booked Mata. Consistency is no good if it's consistently wrong.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:55 pm

The fact that Mata was booked that day by Mariner - incorrectly in my view - doesn't mean Oliver was wrong not to issue a yellow card yesterday. We will always see inconsistencies across referees and also by the same referee - it's the nature of the role and game itself.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:00 pm

We really are being a bit said wanting a player to get booked for running up to their fans to celebrate.

Taunting opposition fans or creating a safety problem is another matter, neither of which Niang did.

Chin up, chest out, move on. We're better than that.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:01 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:His challenge on Ward DID get him the yellow card.

I stand corrected wilks, cheers. Didn't see the caution, thought it was for something else.

In that case, I don't think he should've gone.

Frenchclaret · Post by **Frenchclaret** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:18 pm

Dyche has just said on Clarets Player that referees constantly warn managers not to let their players take off their shirts or go into the crowd (safety reasons) or they will be yellow carded. He therefore asked why Oliver had not applied this and was told pitch geography has to be taken into consideration! The player scored from a position in the centre of the goals and then deliberately ran into the crowd where he was submerged by fans leaning over other fans to get to him. A yellow card offence, according to the advice. This is where silly rules and decisions could be mitigated by a sin bin for 10 mins as in rugby.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:24 pm

Tall Paul wrote:It isn't a rule though. The rule is quoted above and there's no mention of players celebrating with the crowd.

Maybe the referee got it wrong when he booked Mata. Consistency is no good if it's consistently wrong.

The rule is the excessive celebration one and the interpretation given to referees, which players and managers are also made aware of, is that running into the crowd will result in a yellow card.

I don't agree with it but that's the rule and it's why Mata was booked and why Martin Atkinson made a point of telling Boyd not to go into the crowd when he scored against Bournemouth. He'd have had to send Boyd off.

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:51 pm

If the goal celebration had taken place before he got the yellow for the Ward 'tackle' he would have almost certainly been booked for it by Oliver. As said by someone earlier it seems that getting a 'soft' yellow before the 'hard' yellow means a red card but not if the offences are reversed. That is what Sean was complaining about. Rules are rules whether we like and agree with them or not and should be applied consistently.

How often do we complain about players not getting the second yellow for mistimed tackles or handballs or dragging back an attacker when he is going to be through? |Each of which would be an automatic yellow if the 1st yellow wasn't already out there.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:59 pm

Quoon is exactly right about this. The refs come to the clubs and tell them what sorts of celebrations will be bookings, and this is one of them.

As for the point about consistency, the players are told that going into the crowd at all will be a yellow precisely because it makes the rule easy to apply consistently and objectively. Refs inevitably are inconsistent about tackles etc because there is always subjectivity to decisions. These decisions are different - there is no subjective element at all.

Finally, not sure Dyche was moaning to anyone. He was asked by the BBC why he went to the refs room, and presumably they were expecting a winge about the sending off to tee up a faux controversy on MOTD. He simply gave a straight answer to a straight question.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:11 pm

How many bookings did we get for Barnes' goal against Crystal Palace and the celebration that followed?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:13 pm

None, because so far as im aware he didn't seek out contact with the crowd.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:14 pm

As far as Im aware you are wrong