The reality in Europe

[Lancasterclaret]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 625918f2e2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Going to be hard reading for those of you who still think its 1944

[mdd2]

Where did the two years go Lancaster?

[Lancasterclaret]

In a flurry of flying bombs I think!

[Spijed]

SS-GB on BBC one.

Would the reality be that bad?

[Imploding Turtle]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 625918f2e2

Going to be hard reading for those of you who still think its 1944

WHY DO YOU HATE DEMOCRACY, REMOANER!?

[Quickenthetempo]

Most people have been concerned about American foreign policies long before Trump came.

Seen a stat yesterday that 11k civilians have been killed in 2016 by American bombs in Afghanistan alone. While the greatest leader in the free world was in charge.

Maybe you was as concerned by this last year? Maybe not?

[Sidney1st]

It is about time Europe stopped hiding behind the US in all fairness.

Germany should be able to provide itself with a decent sized army, the world can't keep using what happened in the first half of the 20th century as an excuse anymore.

Is Nato obsolete?
Hard to know really.

[Lancasterclaret]

Quickenthetempo

- I've never been a fan of US foreign policy when it involves blowing things up for the sake of blowing things up. I've said before though, and I'll keep saying it, if you are going to be bombed on a regular basis because the country you live in is run by terrorists, then you've more chance of keeping civilian casualties down when you have a very strict set of Rules of Engagement. Ours are very strict, US probably not as strict and Russians non-existent. Though what has got to do with NATO, German rearmament and Europe is something that you'll have to explain to me.

Sidney

Is NATO obsolete? Absolutely not, unless of course you want to just let Russian occupy countries that don't do what they are told.

[claretandy]

Its about time rich NATO countries started paying their way and not tagging onto the coat tails of the Americans.

[Quickenthetempo]

My comment was based on the articles title.

[Sidney1st]

Nato didn't really do much to stop the Russians though on the flip side of that one.....

[Imploding Turtle]

Its about time rich NATO countries started paying their way and not tagging onto the coat tails of the Americans.

That's not happening. It's true that no one spends as much as a proportion of their GDP as the U.S., but the U.S. has ridiculous amounts of waste in their military budget; like when congress buys tanks the Pentagon doesn't want. And just because the U.S. is stupid with the amount they spend doesn't mean everyone else should be.

That being said, i'd expect NATO countries to start spending more on defence in the coming years due to the increasing threat from Russia. It made sense for spending to lower over the past 3 decades butRussia is becoming a threat again.

[Lancasterclaret]

The Ukraine is not a member of NATO, thought it wants to be.

NATO is defensive, hence the "attack on one, is an attack on all". As long as NATO is around, all Putin can do is try to destabilise countries with Russian speaking minorities, which the article touches on.

Course, the problem Putin has is that the Russians were not well behaved occupants, and as the article states, are regarded as worse than the Germans were, which takes some doing!

[Lancasterclaret]

Agreed Andy, 2% is the absolute minimum that should be spent of defence by European countries, but its a contentious issue

[Firthy]

Just makes Corbyn look even more stupid wanting to get rid of Trident.

[Spiral]

Yay, we could do with some more partisanship on this board, so I'll continue by reminding you that former defence secretary and tree-hugging liberal snowflake Michael Portillo also agrees that Trident is a waste.

[ClaretMoffitt]

Yay, we could do with some more partisanship on this board, so I'll continue by reminding you that former defence secretary and tree-hugging liberal snowflake Michael Portillo also agrees that Trident is a waste.

Just a professional politician, thinks with a budget and social head. Not a strategic war head. Thats one thing I always wished we copied off America, it should be high rank military professionals in defence roles, not public school boys trying to climb the ladder..

[Sidney1st]

Just a professional politician, thinks with a budget and social head. Not a strategic war head. Thats one thing I always wished we copied off America, it should be high rank military professionals in defence roles, not public school boys trying to climb the ladder..

Not a bad idea, could we replicate that in other roles too?

Medical people and financial experts for the health and chancellor roles?
An actual teacher for education etc?

[ClaretMoffitt]

Not a bad idea, could we replicate that in other roles too?

Medical people and financial experts for the health and chancellor roles?
An actual teacher for education etc?

To be honest yeah, I wish we would.

[bfcmik]

The US military hardware producers ensure that they have some part of their production in EVERY Congressional district. They then 'lobby' (pay off) each congressman by promising them funding to help their re-election campaigns or helping them trumpet the 'saved' or increased jobs bought for the district by xxx voting for the new scheme.

The way that US politics works it costs so much to win elections that the basic salary of the winners is not enough to enable them to fight again in 2 years without lots of 'pork' in legislation.

[SussexDon1inIreland]

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1000 ... ath-spiral" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is the reality in France and more W European countries

UTC

[Lancasterclaret]

No, it isn't, and its nothing to do with the thread

Can you take your ******** about it to another one please

[Spiral]

Just a professional politician, thinks with a budget and social head. Not a strategic war head. Thats one thing I always wished we copied off America, it should be high rank military professionals in defence roles, not public school boys trying to climb the ladder..

I think you've seriously misunderstood the national tone if you believe that opposition to Trident is in any way politically expedient for a career politician, let alone a retired one now acting as a pundit and making train documentaries. Anyhow, you assume (or perhaps I misread the tone of your post?) that military professionals are unequivocally in support of a nuclear deterrent. Major General Patrick Cordingley, British Army officer and Desert Rat commander in the first Gulf war is opposed on the grounds of efficacy and also practicality, namely the dubious 'independence' of the programme. Of course, if a policy programme is ineffective then by its virtue it is a waste of money, so it's arguably impossible to separate policy from economics.

[lovebeingaclaret]

No, it isn't, and its nothing to do with the thread

Can you take your ******** about it to another one please

Phew. ..thank goodness for your thoughts Lancaster. And there was me thinking that if we allow the present situation to continue unabated my grandchildren and great grandchildren would be facing a dilemma never before experienced.

Thank goodness there is nothing to worry about or even consider changing.

And if we are ever faced with a situation that obviously won't happen we can always move it to another thread and make it go away.

[Lancasterclaret]

Plenty of threads though were you can argue about how much immigrants have ruined your life.

This is about political change and military change in Europe.

[dushanbe]

Isn't there an argument to say that NATO was obsolete post 1989/90? If the 'West' had effectively disbanded the treaty after the collapse of the Soviet Union, we might have a different Russia now. Instead, NATO took advantage and pushed on into areas previously in and under the influence of the Warsaw Pact and we have a situation where a renewed Russia has NATO countries right on its borders, which is probably understandably annoying.

I don't know, I'm just spit balling and its not all going to be gold.

[dsr]

I don't think it's ever a good idea to assume that foreign dictators are benevelont people who will respect you if you roll over to have your tummy tickled. Putin would be equally annoyed by countries that want to be non-Russian, even if they had completely open borders and no army at all. I reckon the lack of any defence force would make him more likely to invade, not less.

[Lancasterclaret]

Think you have to understand that the countries that were in the Warsaw Pact were forced in by the communist systems in their countries (in turn, forced in by Russia), which also did untold damage to pretty much everything in those countries.

The fear of that happening again (remember Russian foreign policy since Peter the Great has essentially been the same, have as much space (ie allied, preferably client states) between potential enemies and the Rodina meant that it was a no brainer for the all the emerging democracies of Eastern Europe to apply for Nato membership.

NATO could have turned them down (not 100% sure, but they certainly didn't accept them all straight away) but its a defensive organisation which is only as strong as its members, and the more members, the stronger it is.

And I think each country voted to join NATO, so again, the only people who have had their noses pushed out of joint are the Russians,who still have their own power block. It just suits current Russian policy to demonise the West to help keep internal problems under control.

[bluelabrador16]

Maybe this thread needs some background information:

The Rise of Putin and The Fall of The Russian-Jewish Oligarchs (1/2)

"This documentary outlines the rise and fall of the Russian-Jewish oligarchs after the fall of the Soviet Union. The reason why this period in history is important is because it delivered to us and into the political arena, Vladimir Putin, the now Russian President, and the antidote to President Obama who's serving on behalf of Zionist Jewry and their total control of the United States of America. Had this not taken place, the world we live in would now have been very different with possibly more wars and conflicts and we would be further in the grip of International Jewry........"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2Cl8lSv9Is" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Rise of Putin and The Fall of The Russian-Jewish Oligarchs (2/2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2nNtynZAiI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Putin has been compared to Hitler for a variety of reasons, one because he won't allow the West to meddle in Russian affairs and try to change the political and social climate through "democratic revolutions" or challenging authority through "human right campaigns" aimed at legalizing homosexual Gay Pride parades which outrage the people, but mostly because he revived his country out of the rubble that Jewish Bolshevism created, which even Putin himself admits was Jewish:..."

[bob-the-scutter]

Not a bad idea, could we replicate that in other roles too?

Medical people and financial experts for the health and chancellor roles?
An actual teacher for education etc?

I`ve been saying for decades we should keep politicians out of the NHS and Education, they should be able to run themselves better. To also keep them out of Defence would get my vote as well!

In fact, politics fks up anything it`s involved in, the world would be a better, richer and safer place without politicians.
Shoot the fkng lot of em!!

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm glad that I don't wake up, roll out of bed and think "another glorious day of blaming the Jews"

[AndrewJB]

I cannot envisage an attack on the UK which won't be best responded to by conventional means. As Trident will inevitably siphon money away from our conventional forces, it is a danger in more ways than one.

[Sidney1st]

I'm glad that I don't wake up, roll out of bed and think "another glorious day of blaming the Jews"

claretandjew is probably used to it by now

[dsr]

I cannot envisage an attack on the UK which won't be best responded to by conventional means. As Trident will inevitably siphon money away from our conventional forces, it is a danger in more ways than one.

Conventional forces are no good against nuclear attack.

[Lancasterclaret]

As a nuclear attack will almost certainly result in the end of the human race, does it really matter if we die in the flames of nuclear fire or stumble around till our inevitable death in the nuclear winter that follows?

[AndrewJB]

DSR - a conventional response is all we'd have if nuked by North Korea, ISIS, or any of the likely sources of such an attack. Anything else would be criminal.

[dsr]

As a nuclear attack will almost certainly result in the end of the human race, does it really matter if we die in the flames of nuclear fire or stumble around till our inevitable death in the nuclear winter that follows?

A nuclear war may result in the end of the human race; a nuclear attack by one country against a country that doesn't have nuclear weapons, won't.

[Lancasterclaret]

That does depend on which country that is though.

North Korea nukes Japan, and the US will respond in kind.

Russia nukes Poland, the NATO will respond in kind

I'm not sure of any circumstance where the nuclear exchange will be limited.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Russia nukes Poland

They'll be wanting their builders back.