Leaving a man on half way

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:39 am

It continues to baffle me why we dont do this on corners.

What use is Gray in our box? It invites pressure and more men to attack. I wouldnt mind but we have conceded plenty from corners and having all them men back we still dont cover both posts.

The maths (and logic) is simple. Leave Gray on the halfwayline and they have to leave at least two back plus the keeper. Add their corner take to that and they only have a maximum of 7 in our box. Also the players they leave back are unlilely to be centre halves who are typically the best defenders. So they are likely to leave less defensively capable players back to mark our quickest and most potent attacker. Leave two up and we still outnumber them and give them more to think about.

Its a negative tactic. Invites pressure and gives us no outlet bringing everyone back.

gogogadgetlegs · Post by **gogogadgetlegs** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:02 am

You cant even work out the best way to get to the ground yet you know the best way to defend corners

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:04 am

I've never understood why we don't leave a man up. But we've been doing years now, several different managers. I think Ternent started it? Didn't he come out with the comment when asked why he did it "corners are for defending"?

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:14 am

I think that dyche explains it in that a goal is very very rarely scored following the defending of a corner so it's more important to have the players back to defend it.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:05 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:I think that dyche explains it in that a goal is very very rarely scored following the defending of a corner so it's more important to have the players back to defend it.

Who said anything about scoring ? By leaving Gray up the opposition will leave 2 back plus another 1 between both boxes, i.e they have less players in our box.

Roger Mellie · Post by **Roger Mellie** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:23 am

Leaving a man up IS part of defending a corner. The number of time a cleared ball comes straight back because we've nobody to hold it up frustrates the heck out of me.

PWBFC · Post by **PWBFC** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:37 am

Defending a corner is done in stages and having everybody back allows us to keep our structure for each phase. Most corners that we defend will end in a goal kick, in Heaton's arms or a throw in to either side. What use is leaving a striker up for those instances?

In addition, defending a crowded box is often easier and besides, the big men are coming up regardless. Any opposition player who would otherwise be marking the halfway line is hardly a threat in the air.

If we did leave Gray up and get the ball to him then he'll likely lose it pretty quickly to one of the two defenders. In the meantime, Hendrick, Arfield, maybe Lowton too have bombed on to support and are totally out of position when the ball inevitably comes back...

Corky · Post by **Corky** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:40 am

PWBFC wrote:Defending a corner is done in stages and having everybody back allows us to keep our structure for each phase. Most corners that we defend will end in a goal kick, in Heaton's arms or a throw in to either side. What use is leaving a striker up for those instances?

In addition, defending a crowded box is often easier and besides, the big men are coming up regardless. Any opposition player who would otherwise be marking the halfway line is hardly a threat in the air.

If we did leave Gray up and get the ball to him then he'll likely lose it pretty quickly to one of the two defenders. In the meantime, Hendrick, Arfield, maybe Lowton too have bombed on to support and are totally out of position when the ball inevitably comes back...

Some people are just sooooooo optimistic.

morpheus2 · Post by **morpheus2** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:41 am

Completely agree with the OP. I remember the days when we never, and I mean never used to score from corners and the other team had a player on the halfway line, the amount of times our corners were turned into the opposition's attack was...well, almost every time we had a corner, so much so that Ballx (RIP) and myself would say "o great, we've got a corner" and turn to face our goal area because that is where the action was invariably going to be.

morpheus2 · Post by **morpheus2** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:50 am

All I can imagine is that managers have been talking to statisticions...statistictio.....people who do statistics, and they've come up with some corner defending statistics.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:52 am

Do any other teams leave a man up field?

Wokingclaret · Post by **Wokingclaret** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:55 am

When QPR got promoted with Colin in charge, he came to the Turf and kept 3 up.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:00 am

I can't recall Chelsea leaving anyone up, for example.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:04 am

It's a modern trend that teams get everyone back. I've always been of the opinion that leaving men forward takes more from the opposition that it does from the defence. It also allows the keeper more room to come out foe the ball occasionally.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:05 am

It's the old folk who want to leave players upfield!

CaptJohn · Post by **CaptJohn** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:11 am

I agree entirely with the OP. Gray is the fastest player we have and is not renowned for being good in the air so is more of a liability in defence IMHO. Station him on the halfway line and the opposition will have something to think about and will have to commit two players to mark him. Plus it gives us a a target for clearances.

minnieclaret · Post by **minnieclaret** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:13 am

SD took the rise out of a questioner at the Radio Lancs Q&A he did, a while back, over this very question.
Statistics and statisticians burn the bloody lot of em.

morpheus2 · Post by **morpheus2** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:14 am

Spijed wrote:It's the old folk who want to leave players upfield!

OI!!............ oh, yeah

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:22 am

Spijed wrote:It's the old folk who want to leave players upfield!

With old age comes wisdom.
We've all realised over the years that Mum and Dad were right after all.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:25 am

minnieclaret wrote:SD took the rise out of a questioner at the Radio Lancs Q&A he did, a while back, over this very question.
Statistics and statisticians burn the bloody lot of em.

It would also mean that the opposition would have to change their corner routines. Throw them a curve ball.
I go back to one of my pet hates. FA coaching badges. Little clones of each other, with no one allowed to think outside the box (no pun intended)

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:41 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:It would also mean that the opposition would have to change their corner routines. Throw them a curve ball.
I go back to one of my pet hates. FA coaching badges. Little clones of each other, with no one allowed to think outside the box (no pun intended)

With regards to coaching badges etc. I suppose it depends on how you want football to operate. Do we need a full blown training complex for players to train in, for example. Would a few muddy pitches suffice?

Football has come a long way in the last 20-30 years!

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:53 am

The scientific/ sports science has moved forward massively.
Health and diets have moved forward massively.
Technology regarding pitch draining and heating has improved massively.
But I don't think coaching has improved at all. There is far too little individuality out there. IMO the FA coaching badge system hampers people from thinking for themselves, as I said little clones. It's one of the reasons foreign coaches are seen as an improvement from English managers, they don't have the same hang ups.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:42 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:I think that dyche explains it in that a goal is very very rarely scored following the defending of a corner so it's more important to have the players back to defend it.

But quite a few are conceded by the number of players we have invited in.

BFC88 · Post by **BFC88** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:56 am

Totally agree, it doesn't make sense to me. We smash it clear and they get another free hit into the box.

Gray does nothing to contribute to defending corners anyway. Leave him on half way and try exploit them with pace over the top

Andreshotboots · Post by **Andreshotboots** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:28 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:It continues to baffle me why we dont do this on corners.

What use is Gray in our box? It invites pressure and more men to attack. I wouldnt mind but we have conceded plenty from corners and having all them men back we still dont cover both posts.

The maths (and logic) is simple. Leave Gray on the halfwayline and they have to leave at least two back plus the keeper. Add their corner take to that and they only have a maximum of 7 in our box. Also the players they leave back are unlilely to be centre halves who are typically the best defenders. So they are likely to leave less defensively capable players back to mark our quickest and most potent attacker. Leave two up and we still outnumber them and give them more to think about.

Its a negative tactic. Invites pressure and gives us no outlet bringing everyone back.

I've always said this, think outside the box. Leave 4 men up from their corner, imagine the chaos it would cause with the oppos centre backs etc, they wouldn't know whether to stick or twist

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:38 am

Dyche was asked about this before we played Middlesbrough at home in 2013/14. He stated something along the lines of teams rarely score by leaving a player up when defending a corner. You guessed it, that very next game Boro broke from our corner and scored the winner by leaving someone up. We'd battered them as well.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:55 am

Dyche was once asked this at one of the Radio Lancs meet the manager thingies.

He explained it politely to the guy who asked and it was basically all related to statistics. From memory it was a pretty thorough answer but the guy then started to question this again and debate it with him.

Dyche remained polite but respectfully told him that he thought he was personally more qualified to make the decision than the guy in the audience.

This doesn't mean Dyche is correct and other fans are wrong but it at least means he puts thought and rationale into everything he does....which is good enough for me.

Can you imagine the likes of Harry Redknapp trying to answer a question like that ? He would not have a clue.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:51 pm

unless it's the 93rd minute I would leave Gray up 100% of the time

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:53 pm

claretandy wrote:Who said anything about scoring ? By leaving Gray up the opposition will leave 2 back plus another 1 between both boxes, i.e they have less players in our box.

Don't be so touchy. I actually agree with you. I think that by leaving Gray up front we would at least have an outlet and a bit of pace to chase the clearances down. All that I was doing was pointing out dyche reason for not doing.

PWBFC · Post by **PWBFC** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:03 pm

Corky wrote:Some people are just sooooooo optimistic.

Another word would be realistic.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:03 pm

No team ever leaves a man on his own on the half way line

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:54 pm

Doesnt mean we shouldnt. I would leave two or more up.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:57 pm

If leaving a man on the half way line worked more teams would do it, but because they don't obviously it has little benefit.

If it had any impact you'd see all the big clubs leave a fast player up there. However, as they don't it can't be much of an advantage.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:14 pm

Andreshotboots wrote:I've always said this, think outside the box. Leave 4 men up from their corner, imagine the chaos it would cause with the oppos centre backs etc, they wouldn't know whether to stick or twist

Imagine the chaos it would cause when the opposition were given free reign to start an attack 12 yards outside our penalty box with 4 of our players out of position.

There's a case to be made for leaving a man up when defending corners, but I can conclude with absolute certainty that there's a very good reason why we, and most other teams don't do it.

We rarely invite pressure on ourselves when we clear corners, the ball usually ends up out of play. I think some of you are imagining events that don't happen. Even if Gray was on the halfway line the chances of us being able to clear the ball accurately enough to give him a chance of retrieving it are pretty slim. It's much less dangerous to clear the ball into touch and regroup than hope that a hoof forward will lead to a chance at the other end.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:22 pm

Yes quite Rileybobs.

I think some have this vision of Gray being perfectly placed 30 ish yards away, just waiting to run onto a perfectly placed clearance with the freedom of the entire oppositions half to go at.

Some folk go on about how he's isolated and has no service, so naturally this would change when leaving him up for an opposition corner.

MrTopTier · Post by **MrTopTier** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:06 pm

Do any other teams leave a man up field?

Was it not Reading who did it last year on the Turf?

Ranieri did it against Stoke, where he left three players up front, which resulted in Stoke leaving all four defenders back, thus negating Stokes perceived aerial threat.

It happens so rarely these days, it becomes a bit of a novelty when you see it done, bit like the ref blowing for a foul throw.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:39 pm

Nobody is saying we will play a perfect ball to Gray. We are saying it would mean they have more players back, would give us some outlet (currently we have none) allow us to counter (rather than the current wait and let them regroup) and also give them less attacking options in our box.

Its not like Gray can defend anyway!

k90bfc · Post by **k90bfc** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:05 pm

No different when the opposition have a free kick outside the box,why only Tom? get a full back on the post,goal covered,it worked in Amateur football,simple but effective!

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:19 pm

So many great managers on this message board - you wonder how the professionals ever get a job eh !

HelloHiGoodbye · Post by **HelloHiGoodbye** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:23 pm

PWBFC wrote:Defending a corner is done in stages and having everybody back allows us to keep our structure for each phase. Most corners that we defend will end in a goal kick, in Heaton's arms or a throw in to either side. What use is leaving a striker up for those instances?

In addition, defending a crowded box is often easier and besides, the big men are coming up regardless. Any opposition player who would otherwise be marking the halfway line is hardly a threat in the air.

If we did leave Gray up and get the ball to him then he'll likely lose it pretty quickly to one of the two defenders. In the meantime, Hendrick, Arfield, maybe Lowton too have bombed on to support and are totally out of position when the ball inevitably comes back...

Yep. This.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:03 pm

TVC15 wrote:So many great managers on this message board - you wonder how the professionals ever get a job eh !

its a message board for discussion and its an observation. Be boring of we just agreed with everything that the professionals (and politicians, journalists, tv hosts etc) said and did.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:06 am

Another goal conceded in a crowded box today with nobody to clear to on a corner.

Hendricks clearance was poor. But had there been someone up top he might have at least put his foot through it. Oh and there might not have been 8 spurs players in our box.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:05 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Another goal conceded in a crowded box today with nobody to clear to on a corner.

Hendricks clearance was poor. But had there been someone up top he might have at least put his foot through it. Oh and there might not have been 8 spurs players in our box.

So if we had a man on the half way line Hendrick may not have mis-hit his clearance? Very very strange logic.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:21 am

Well for one he wouldnt have had as many men around him putting him under pressure.

But that aside it was obvious he wasnt even attempting to put his foot through it as it would come back at us. Watch the replay. He is trying to play it out into an area where we are likely to have bodies to run onto it. Very poor mistimed clearance admittedly. But if we had Gray on half way he would put his laces through it.

HieronymousBoschHobs · Post by **HieronymousBoschHobs** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:45 am

I don't always think Dyche gets it right (which manager does?) but I imagine there is a good reason we do this. Corners do not have too many variables: there are two places you can take them from, and only a limited number of ways they can be taken (excluding taking them short or routines which is essentially bringing the ball back into normal play). Hence they will have practiced them to death and probably tried all sorts of variations (e.g. one man up, two men up) just to see what happens. They've probably got stats as well showing how much advantage is accrued by not having everyone back etc. It is part and parcel of a conservative strategy, but makes sense for us because we're not likely to play a killer pass and get one on the brake from that position.

Good argument that it is part of the defensive strategy (as then the opposition needs someone else at halfway to mark our player) but I reckon that has been considered too. I'd rather that when we do actually have the ball in open play we try to be a bit less cynical and try to play on the ground a bit more - we have a team of experienced professional footballers who I think are capable of stringing passes together even against the best opposition, simply because they would not be here if they were incapable of such a task. At corners I'd say there is nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution or going with the stats.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:25 am

TVC15 wrote:Dyche remained polite but respectfully told him that he thought he was personally more qualified to make the decision than the guy in the audience

Maybe someone should point out the statistics regarding how many goals Dyche's Burnley concede from corners.

If there is something SD is not qualified to talk about, it's defending corners.

We were rubbish at defending corners when he came. We are still rubbish at defending corners now.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:57 am

If leaving a man on the half way line works why do no other clubs do it (or at least very few of them?)

Spurs didn't do it once yesterday. Wonder why that is?

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:01 am

Because everyone does whats in vogue.

451. Yep copy it.
451 come 433 in attack. Yep
442 ok its working again now so lets copy that
3 at the back? Chelsea introduce it next minute england play it and everyone else will follow.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:06 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Because everyone does whats in vogue.

451. Yep copy it.
451 come 433 in attack. Yep
442 ok its working again now so lets copy that
3 at the back? Chelsea introduce it next minute england play it and everyone else will follow.

When was the last time a team scored from leaving a player on the half way line? (A hoofed clearance, striker runs onto it and shoots past the keeper). I'd say once every few seasons at a guess.

Nowadays teams work with a lot of stats and no doubt they've figured out you are less likely to concede with everyone back otherwise the best teams would look to exploit it, but they don't.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:13 am

Its not just about scoring on the break. Its not even just about defending the goal.

To me its primarily about defending the goal. But also getting a good position from a clearence even if it means winning a throw or drawing a foul. And best case getting a goal or winning an attacking set play.

We would probably score now and again. We would almost certainly concede less.

It also gives them something to think about. Week in week out spur will have attacked corners like yesterday. Against a team with 11 men in and around their own box.

Stick a couple on half way. See how they approach that.

I guarantee that someone will try it sooner than later and many will copy.