Carragher and nev on Keane

Longsidejono · Post by **Longsidejono** » Tue May 09, 2017 12:57 pm

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/ ... ir-verdict

Not very complimentary imagine the stones write up

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:02 pm

Michael Keane will turn out to be twenty time better a Player Than Carragher ever was where ever he ends up playing,Carragher is so far up his own arse it's unbelievable

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:05 pm

Don't worry. I've added Carragher to the prick list

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:05 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Michael Keane will turn out to be twenty time better a Player Than Carragher ever was where ever he ends up playing,Carragher is so far up his own arse it's unbelievable

Twenty times the player?

So he's going to win 20 Champions League medals? Get 760 England caps? Play in 40 international tournaments for England?

I think you may have gone a tad, just a tad, over the top.

Looking at what they say without claret tinted glasses, I can't see an issue with it. Our full backs do get tight, he does get a lot of protection, we don't really know how he'll defend when he has to go one-on-one with top strikers. It's all valid comment.

Ric_C · Post by **Ric_C** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:08 pm

They make some good points though. Keane is a good player, but in our system, perhaps looks better than he is? Prime example being Tarks and Long looking quite comfortable for most of the game last week.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:08 pm

Socrates wrote:Twenty times the player?

So he's going to win 20 Champions League medals? Get 760 England caps? Play in 40 international tournaments for England?

I think you may have gone a tad, just a tad, over the top.

You know what I meant though

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:09 pm

Played as 1 of 3 centre backs for england and did alright.
Why not for the scousers ?? Or are they above england

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:11 pm

The reference to Sakho is the most telling one.

PSG captain as a teenager, French international, mega-money transfer ..... he was exposed in that system. Different defender in an Allardyce team, who (with the greatest respect) sets his team up more like us than Liverpool.

I don't think they are critical at all. They're not saying he's not good enough, they're saying they're not sure. Absolutely valid comments in my eyes.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:12 pm

dpinsussex wrote:Played as 1 of 3 centre backs for england and did alright.
Why not for the scousers ?? Or are they above england

In a friendly. Against Germany reserves. And he played well, but Joe Hart bailed him out hugely at the end.

His other game for England was against no-marks.

Maybe, just maybe, it may be wise to wait for more than a 90 minute kick-about before deciding definitely, definitely that Keane is the next Bobby Moore. That's basically all they are saying.

claret wizard · Post by **claret wizard** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:16 pm

Socrates wrote:Twenty times the player?

So he's going to win 20 Champions League medals? Get 760 England caps? Play in 40 international tournaments for England?

He'll be infinitely better if he wins one league title

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:16 pm

Socrates wrote:In a friendly. Against Germany reserves. And he played well, but Joe Hart bailed him out hugely at the end.

His other game for England was against no-marks.

Maybe, just maybe, it may be wise to wait for more than a 90 minute kick-about before deciding definitely, definitely that Keane is the next Bobby Moore. That's basically all they are saying.

Your hoping all the Premier league managers read this board and your comments arnt you,and he stays with us ,don't think much of our support has any doubt Keane will go to the very top...except you.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:16 pm

Some of our fans do overrate him but to pull him up for the Lukaku goal is harsh. There is probably only one player in the league that could and has done that to him.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:18 pm

People are only talking Keane up so much because stones went for £50 million an he's garbage! Otherwise we would be over the moon at £20-25 million for Keane its his true value and he isn't proven at the top yet tho the signs are promising

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:20 pm

Agree with their comments. He may go on to do very well at other clubs in other systems but most defenders have it good at Burnley under Dyche. They get a lot of protection from the players around them. There's no doubt that Keane is a very good player but it's valid to ask how he'll get on elsewhere in a different setup.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:26 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Your hoping all the Premier league managers read this board and your comments arnt you,and he stays with us ,don't think much of our support has any doubt Keane will go to the very top...except you.

He's a good player. He's done really, really well for us.

But defending for us is incredibly different to defending for a top four side - and that's literally all they are saying.

At Burnley we have full-backs who play very narrow and our wide players play as auxiliary full backs out of possession. On top of that he's got central midfielders who play close to him. We are organised, drilled and there isn't much space to play around us so there is so much more support. We are rarely, rarely attacked on the break one on one also.

At a top four side the full backs push on, they press a lot higher up the pitch in more numbers and you are expected to go one-on-one against a striker. It's more responsibility and a different way of defending.

They're not saying he's a bad player. They actually say the opposite, they say he's done well this year.

I'm not saying he's a bad player. Quite the opposite again. Just because everything isn't 100% positive doesn't make it negative. It's not binary.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:27 pm

The other thing to add is that if anybody knows what it's like defending for top sides it's probably these two, with their thousand plus games played exclusively for those types of clubs.

Longsidejono · Post by **Longsidejono** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:31 pm

Rojo, blind, kolo toure, stones, otmendi top top defenders for top top teams

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:34 pm

Socrates wrote:He's a good player. He's done really, really well for us.

But defending for us is incredibly different to defending for a top four side - and that's literally all they are saying.

At Burnley we have full-backs who play very narrow and our wide players play as auxiliary full backs out of possession. On top of that he's got central midfielders who play close to him. We are organised, drilled and there isn't much space to play around us so there is so much more support. We are rarely, rarely attacked on the break one on one also.

At a top four side the full backs push on, they press a lot higher up the pitch in more numbers and you are expected to go one-on-one against a striker. It's more responsibility and a different way of defending.

They're not saying he's a bad player. They actually say the opposite, they say he's done well this year.

I'm not saying he's a bad player. Quite the opposite again. Just because everything isn't 100% positive doesn't make it negative. It's not binary.

Agreed very different dwfending for us. At times like a siege on the alamo. Top 6 clubs rarely experience this.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:37 pm

claret wizard wrote:He'll be infinitely better if he wins one league title

Good answer, but it will take more then that

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:38 pm

Longsidejono wrote:Rojo, blind, kolo toure, stones, otmendi top top defenders for top top teams

Otemendi and Stones look better with Kompany next to them, then they do playing alongside each other.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:38 pm

Socrates wrote:He's a good player. He's done really, really well for us.

But defending for us is incredibly different to defending for a top four side - and that's literally all they are saying.

At Burnley we have full-backs who play very narrow and our wide players play as auxiliary full backs out of possession. On top of that he's got central midfielders who play close to him. We are organised, drilled and there isn't much space to play around us so there is so much more support. We are rarely, rarely attacked on the break one on one also.

At a top four side the full backs push on, they press a lot higher up the pitch in more numbers and you are expected to go one-on-one against a striker. It's more responsibility and a different way of defending.

They're not saying he's a bad player. They actually say the opposite, they say he's done well this year.

I'm not saying he's a bad player. Quite the opposite again. Just because everything isn't 100% positive doesn't make it negative. It's not binary.

Ok

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:43 pm

dpinsussex wrote:Agreed very different dwfending for us. At times like a siege on the alamo. Top 6 clubs rarely experience this.

They were dramatically outnumbered at the Alamo.

We rarely are outnumbered, for all the reasons that I have laid out.

We have strength in numbers and in organisation. There is little space for teams to attack.

A better analogy would be that Michael Keane is the best soldier in a solid, strong castle. Yes he plays a large part, but the castle is hugely important too.

I shouldn't be surprised by the Claret tinted glasses in here but it still surprises me. Look at how Ben Mee performed in defences set up by Eddie Howe and how he performs in a Sean Dyche defence. Almost two completely different players, and that's because the structure around him provides support. Yes he's a bloody good defender but I'd wager he'd be half the player elsewhere.

Kevin Long is another example. Barely plays for donkey's then slips seamlessly into the team on Saturday because they are well drilled, well organised and well protected.

These aren't criticisms of the players, just the reality of the situation. Look at the stats about the shots we concede - we allow teams to take shots in positions we are comfortable with them shooting from. We get bodies behind the ball and they are frequently from distance. That is a world away from defending near the half way line with half a pitch behind you and the whole responsibility of dealing with the centre-forward is yours and yours alone.

If a centre-forward against Burnley pulls wide Keane passes him off to his full back. If he drops deep he passes him off to the midfield. At a top side frequently defenders are more isolated, they can't pass the forward off so they have to decide whether to go with them or hold their position. A whole different world.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:47 pm

I can remember Derby Fans getting all moist about signing the "best" centre half in the championship, a certain Jason Shackell.

I thought and posted on CM at the time that they were signing a centre half who had been playing in a team that had been set up primarily to defend by Sean Dyche and that this made him look better than he was.

Keane is a step up from Shackell obviously but Neville and Carraghers point is extremely valid.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:47 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Michael Keane will turn out to be twenty time better a Player Than Carragher ever was where ever he ends up playing,Carragher is so far up his own arse it's unbelievable

They've won everything at club level between them and the actual article isn't actually that critical, unless people are seeing something in it that the rest of us can't....

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:53 pm

Keane is overrated on here, hes kinda unproven at PL level still. Hes proven he can play in a Dyche PL team but its a whole different game at the top. Some of our fans think Keane would be turning in the same performances at a Man City with zero protection like John Stones and its pretty delusional. Its easy to defend when you have tucked in fullbacks, and wide midfielders who's role in the team is to defend and make a back 6.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:53 pm

Neville winning most things,Carragher spawned a Champions league win and a few League cups:)

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:57 pm

Both top, top defenders Steve.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:59 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Some of our fans do overrate him but to pull him up for the Lukaku goal is harsh. There is probably only one player in the league that could and has done that to him.

he was overpowered by lukaku, brushed aside as if he wasnt even there, not a fault, lukaku is simply more powerful.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:00 pm

It probably matters more what Klopp & Mourinho think about Keane than Carragher & Neville.

Considering the clubs he is being linked with are United, City, Liverpool, Spurs etc and not Stoke, West Brom, West Ham or Watford I think it is fair to assume he is highly rated not just by some on here who don't get a stiffy over being negative about all things Burnley but by various top clubs and managers.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:01 pm

Though I must admit I always felt Carragher made his name out of last ditch tackles and bravery which sort of suggests you are often caught out of position!!

And the amount of times Neville used to play the oppo onside when he was in an England shirt because he didn't know when to push up was a definite flaw in his game.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:05 pm

claretdom wrote:It probably matters more what Klopp & Mourinho think about Keane than Carragher & Neville.

Considering the clubs he is being linked with are United, City, Liverpool, Spurs etc and not Stoke, West Brom, West Ham or Watford I think it is fair to assume he is highly rated not just by some on here who don't get a stiffy over being negative about all things Burnley but by various top clubs and managers.

Has Jose, Pep, Klopp and Pochettino come out and said they want him?

Or are we basing this on media speculation?

Agreed that Klopp and Jose's opinion is ultimately what counts. But if they were asked by Sky to give their opinion on Keane and how he'd fit into their teams they'd almost certainly refuse to do it. That's why Sky employ ex-footballers to give their opinion on the game ...... like Carragher and Neville have done here.

It's all b**locks, all speculation, all conjecture until a bid is made. They may be in for him, they may not be, but Sky have 24 hours of TV and countless pages of content to provide every single day - hence theoretical discussions like this. You're not meant to take it to heart if they don't agree with you.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:08 pm

Fair do's its just speculation.

How come there is no speculation with any club outside the top 7 for him ?

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:12 pm

claretdom wrote:Fair do's its just speculation.

How come there is no speculation with any club outside the top 7 for him ?

I'm just guessing ..........

but "United v Liverpool in £25 million tug of war for Keane" probably gets more clicks, retweets, likes and sells more papers than "West Brom v Stoke in £25 million tug of war for Keane".

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:12 pm

To suggest Michael Keane couldn't adapt to a new system of playing is ludicrous ....he will win lots of plaudits,medal's and England Cap's playing for a top four side.......we all know that,just some of us are in denial.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:12 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Neville winning most things,Carragher spawned a Champions league win and a few League cups:)

You don't spawn Champions Leagues.

I'm no Liverpool fan - quite the opposite - and I agree about Carragher's tendency to dive in. But you don't spawn a Champions League.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:15 pm

Steve1956 wrote:To suggest Michael Keane couldn't adapt to a new system of playing is ludicrous ....he will win lots of plaudits,medal's and England Cap's playing for a top four side.......we all know that,just some of us are in denial.

Who has said he can't?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:16 pm

Socrates wrote:I'm just guessing ..........

but "United v Liverpool in £25 million tug of war for Keane" probably gets more clicks, retweets, likes and sells more papers than "West Brom v Stoke in £25 million tug of war for Keane".

Ok. Well lets see where he ends up next season......

When he joins a team from 8th downwards you can bump this and say "see it was all speculation and merely done to sell papers"

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:18 pm

claretdom wrote:Ok. Well lets see where he ends up next season......

When he joins a team from 8th downwards you can bump this and say "see it was all speculation and merely done to sell papers"

I'm not saying he will.

Christ ...... it's like discussing things with people with autism. It's not binary.

cutsy123 · Post by **cutsy123** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:22 pm

one manc prick
one scouse prick
who cares what they say, as long as we get 25 mil for him

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:24 pm

Socrates wrote:I'm not saying he will.

Christ ...... it's like discussing things with people with autism. It's not binary.

The forum is full of thick people who take everything out of context and jump on the defensive. Btw I'd watch out using the word "autism" around ClaretDom, he may take offence more than a normal person would.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:24 pm

Socrates wrote:You don't spawn Champions Leagues.

I'm no Liverpool fan - quite the opposite - and I agree about Carragher's tendency to dive in. But you don't spawn a Champions League.

Carragher did to be fair,

It would be good if Neville and Carragher analysed the first half of the Champions League Final against AC Milan when he won his medal, he was all over the ******* place! was Carragher

A lot of the Liverpool team that night have a lot to thank Steven Gerrard and to a slightly lesser extent Jerzey Dudek for them winners medals.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:26 pm

RocketLawnChair wrote:Carragher did to be fair,

It would be good if Neville and Carragher analysed the first half of the Champions League Final against AC Milan when he won his medal, he was all over the ******* place! was Carragher

A lot of the Liverpool team that night have a lot to thank Steven Gerrard and to a slightly lesser extent Jerzey Dudek for them winners medals.

You spelt Didi Hamann wrong.
Most people recognise his appearance for the 2nd half as the game changer, it wasn't Gerrard, it was the introduction of a top class defensive midfielder that stopped Milan.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:28 pm

Ok Didi Hamman as well. It doesn't detract from the fact Carragher had a terrible game that night.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:28 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Neville winning most things,Carragher spawned a Champions league win and a few League cups:)

What has their playing career got to do with their opinion on Keane?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:30 pm

claretdom wrote:It probably matters more what Klopp & Mourinho think about Keane than Carragher & Neville.

Considering the clubs he is being linked with are United, City, Liverpool, Spurs etc and not Stoke, West Brom, West Ham or Watford I think it is fair to assume he is highly rated not just by some on here who don't get a stiffy over being negative about all things Burnley but by various top clubs and managers.

Being highly rated and proven are two completely different things

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:31 pm

Ahh heres oddball, missed you Saturday I thought you were going to introduce yourself ?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:34 pm

claretdom wrote:Ahh heres oddball, missed you Saturday I thought you were going to introduce yourself ?

What? When did I say that? I'm not sure how I'm supposed to introduce myself. Do I turn up at the turf with a sign above my head with my username on?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:36 pm

I thought that was the point you were making when you said "I know who you are" last week, must have misunderstood, although to be fair when I said you will know where I will be and you can introduce yourself you didn't say otherwise.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:37 pm

RocketLawnChair wrote:Ok Didi Hamman as well. It doesn't detract from the fact Carragher had a terrible game that night.

Probably because they were missing a defensive midfielder on the night.

Keane would miss the protection from our midfield if we didn't have adequate cover.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue May 09, 2017 2:41 pm

claretdom wrote:I thought that was the point you were making when you said "I know who you are" last week, must have misunderstood, although to be fair when I said you will know where I will be and you can introduce yourself you didn't say otherwise.

My comment of "I know who you are" was in response to me defending you when another poster used the word "autism"