Sunderland quote £30 million fee for Pickford.

[Sidney1st]

Everton have bid £10 million.

I think he will go for less than £20million.

[Selby Claret]

Sounds like a lot for a guy that's played 31 PL games total and only 24 games at Championship level

Interesting to compare him to our Tom in 2016/17:

PICKFORD
Total appearances 31
Clean Sheets 4
Goals Conceded 50
Errors Leading To Goal 3
Saves 135
Penalties Saved 0
Punches 22
High Claims 42
Catches 16
Sweeper Clearances 24
Throw Outs 83

HEATON
Appearances 35
Clean Sheets 10
Goals Conceded 48
Errors Leading To Goal 0
Saves 141
Penalties Saved 1
Punches 12
High Claims 26
Catches 34
Sweeper Clearances 14
Throw Outs 117

[cricketfieldclarets]

Massively overrated.

[Sidney1st]

When did sweeper clearances become a stat?

Or did that start when Pep arrived and binned off Hart?

[UpTheBeehole]

His goal kick for Batshuayi's goal last week was pure Sunday League, as was his error for Pedro's goal.

[jdrobbo]

Why is he "massively overrated" would be my question to you. Are we just looking at a goalkeeper who played for a very poor team and thus, had a lot of shots to save? Or does it go a lot further than this with Pickford?

I think he's an outstanding goalkeeper. He had a brilliant campaign with Preston and has gone on to develop all areas of his game during the last 12 months with Sunderland. I think that most would agree, Pickford is a truly outstanding shot stopper. I would put Ben Foster in a similar category when it comes to this specific attribute.

However, I believe that there is much more to his game… He is incredibly athletic, very commanding for such a young goalkeeper and haps most importantly, to many of the richer suitors, his distribution is immaculate 99% of the time.

Robbie Mustoe was on the radio the other week, saying that Pickford often did outfield training after finishing his drills, such as his ability on the ball.

[Cubanclaret]

Where do those stats come from?
Saves per game will be higher than Heats but that's mainly down to the defence in front of him.
Heaton has made so few errors in the time he's been at Burnley. Hugely impressive.
Pickford has everything to become an outstanding keeper for many years to come.

[Burnley_Mark]

HEATON
Errors Leading To Goal 0
Saves 141
Penalties Saved 1

Wow.
Go on Tom!

[Bordeauxclaret]

Looks a very good keeper to me. Hopefully they get him or they might come looking for Heaton.

[KRBFC]

He's excellent and young, £30M wouldn't be too much for a keeper they can get 15 years of service out of.

[RocketLawnChair]

I love Tom Heaton and he is a great keeper for us, the best in my lifetime in fact.

The errors leading to goals stat is a load of crap though, That must have to be a complete dropped bollock. Although none of them have been Norman Wisdom esq Tom as certainly been at fault for some of the goals we have conceded this season.

[dsr]

Although none of them have been Norman Wisdom esq Tom as certainly been at fault for some of the goals we have conceded this season.

Which ones? Errors doesn't mean "Gordon Banks might have saved it", it means actual bona fide errors - eg. dropping the ball at an opponent's feet, or letting a soft one through your legs. Not, for example, West Ham's second where his save hit the bar and bounced back.

[RocketLawnChair]

Which ones? Errors doesn't mean "Gordon Banks might have saved it", it means actual bona fide errors - eg. dropping the ball at an opponent's feet, or letting a soft one through your legs. Not, for example, West Ham's second where his save hit the bar and bounced back.

Ok then dropping a ball at opponents feet, Swansea first game of the season.

[dsr]

He didn't drop it. I've just watched it on Youtube and it was a stretching diving save with one hand - he never tried to catch it. Diving one handed saves from deflected headers don't count as errors in the official stats, even if you think he should have done better.

[RocketLawnChair]

He didn't drop it. I've just watched it on Youtube and it was a stretching diving save with one hand - he never tried to catch it. Diving one handed saves from deflected headers don't count as errors in the official stats, even if you think he should have done better.

ok

[TheFamilyCat]

Some of the stats and more so the definition baffle me. For example I cannot understand why a blocked shot isn't classed as a shot on target.

Who judges the "Errors leading to goals"? Surely it is a matter of opinion rather than a fact.

Does a keeper staying on his line when everyone on the ground is screaming for him to collect a cross count as an error? Who draws the line between whether a keeper should have held a shot which he parried and a goal was scored from the rebound?
What about poor positioning which has left too much of one side of the goal exposed?

[Spijed]

It could be argued that Heaton made a meal of the penalty away to West Ham.

[RocketLawnChair]

It could be argued that Heaton made a meal of the penalty away to West Ham.

Not on here it can't !

[boyyanno]

In all fairness it's very difficult for keepers. I've played with many who have done things in their own way. Some keepers anticipate what will come and position themselves accordingly, some react when the situations occur. In some cases this will lead to the keeper in scenario A saving somthing that Scenario B wouldn't, but similarly if what is anticipated in scenario A doesn't come to pass they look a fool.

I don't look for errors with the keeper, when he makes one you will generally know. Those who look for them will be looking all day.

[boatshed bill]

Even the "saves" stat is pretty pointless as some saves are routine, some not.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Why is he "massively overrated" would be my question to you. Are we just looking at a goalkeeper who played for a very poor team and thus, had a lot of shots to save? Or does it go a lot further than this with Pickford?

I think he's an outstanding goalkeeper. He had a brilliant campaign with Preston and has gone on to develop all areas of his game during the last 12 months with Sunderland. I think that most would agree, Pickford is a truly outstanding shot stopper. I would put Ben Foster in a similar category when it comes to this specific attribute.

However, I believe that there is much more to his game… He is incredibly athletic, very commanding for such a young goalkeeper and haps most importantly, to many of the richer suitors, his distribution is immaculate 99% of the time.

Robbie Mustoe was on the radio the other week, saying that Pickford often did outfield training after finishing his drills, such as his ability on the ball.

His distribution is terrible. Inconsistent at absolute best. See goal against chelsea. Same against us away. Constantly booted the ball to nobody or in to touch.

Shot stopping. Hes ok. Makes some errors. But shot stopping is what a keeper should be good at above all else. But i wouldnt say he excels. His best attribute is probably on crosses.

He is young. Has time to develop. And has played a few games at the top level.

£30m for a player with less than 25 top flight starts. Thats another reason he is massively overrated. Apart from being young hes done nothing to warrant half that figure.

Jack Butland is a better keeper and he isnt worth 30m.

The world record for a goalkeeper is around that figure and its the longest standing record for a position. And thats for Buffon who at 23 moved to Juve with 200 plus games to his name, domestic and european honours and a regular for italy alongside greats like pagliuca, peruzzi, toldo etc. Theres a reason that records stood for so long. It will be broken soon. Probably this year. I know fees go up. But Pickford has done nothing to warrant breaking the world record fee when better keepers have moved before him for money. De Gea. Courtois. Neur. Cech. Etc.

Decent keeper. But hes more Richard Wright at the moment than Buffon.

[Sidney1st]

Don't knock Richard Wright.

Sat at City for 3 yes making less then half a dozen appearances and made loads of money.
Not daft that lad.

[Imploding Turtle]

When did sweeper clearances become a stat?

Or did that start when Pep arrived and binned off Hart?

When someone decided "hey, lets not call these things 'passes'".

[ClaretTony]

Seeing as the thread was about Pickford, I think he's going to be an outstanding goalkeeper and it's only a matter of time before he's in the England squad on a permanent basis. For us, we know what that means because Tom is now down to number 4 choice with the return of Butland.

As for this season, best English goalkeeper has been Ben Foster at West Brom.

[cricketfieldclarets]

That will be Ben Foster with 6 clean sheets?

Behind Heaton on 10 and Forster on 14 and both let in less overall? Even Lee Grant had a better season than Foster!

[ClaretTony]

That will be Ben Foster with 6 clean sheets?

Behind Heaton on 10 and Forster on 14 and both let in less overall? Even Lee Grant had a better season than Foster!

Problem of people reading too much into stats - Foster was absolutely outstanding for West Brom - Grant played well for Stoke but he most certainly didn't have a better season than Foster.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Well of course stats form part of it. Especially when he has kept less clean sheets from less shots and made less saves!

Heaton was the best English keeper I saw all season. I can't understand how anyone can see past him. Granted we saw more of him. But using those stats, he faced the most shots but still kept 10 clean sheets for the team favourites to finish bottom. Also made the most saves by far!

Its not just the amount of saves its the quality. Not many keepers would make the save Heaton did at Southampton and there were plenty of examples of that from Heaton.

Pickford is a parrier. He parries lots of shots back into danger. Rarely pushes it round the post or catches it.

What did Foster do that makes him better than Heaton or Forster?

Grant had a cracking season. He was as good as Heaton at Old Trafford too!

Foster played more minutes than any keeper in the league and still only kept 6 clean sheets.

[Devils_Advocate]

Sounds like a lot for a guy that's played 31 PL games total and only 24 games at Championship level

For a 23 year old keeper that is a pretty impressive record. As you like to compare him with Heaton take a look at what Tom had achieved by the age of 23 - 14 games on loan at Swindon and 21 games on loan at Cardiff which was then follwed by spells at Rochdale and Wycombe

There's no gaurentee young players will continue to progress but nowadays if you look at the elite players at the very top they tend to have already been playing around the top level from a relatively young age.

Clubs are willing to invest large sums of money on a players future potential as well as their current talent and thats why some young stars appear overpriced.

[UpTheBeehole]

Ben Foster makes so many errors. His recent appearance at the Turf giving a great example of that.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Ben Foster makes so many errors. His recent appearance at the Turf giving a great example of that.

He was very shaky in that game. Cant believe anyone would say he was the best English Keeper in the league this season. Nowhere near.

[KRBFC]

I agree with Tony, Foster was immense for West Brom this year. Stats mean absolutely nothing for goalkeepers, "shots saved" for example, aload of tosh considering it doesn't indicate how many shots were difficult to save and some shots are unsaveable.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Thats like saying goal stats don't count because of penalties and tap ins!

Obviously there is more to it than stats. But they also play a big part in any analysis and with good reason.

Watch Pickford. He flaps way too much and pushes the ball back into dangerous areas on most shots.

[KRBFC]

Thats like saying goal stats don't count because of penalties and tap ins!

Obviously there is more to it than stats. But they also play a big part in any analysis and with good reason.

Watch Pickford. He flaps way too much and pushes the ball back into dangerous areas on most shots.

Which is why goal stats are also misleading, for example, if a player scores 15 penalties in 1 season and 5 goals from open play, is he considered a 20 goal a season striker? Not for me. Individual stats of a player are a pile of rubbish. You can dress them up however you like to suit your point. Keeper A makes 100 saves, keeper B makes 80 saves, does that make keeper A better even though keeper A could have faced far more routine shots?

[cricketfieldclarets]

Which is why goal stats are also misleading, for example, if a player scores 15 penalties in 1 season and 5 goals from open play, is he considered a 20 goal a season striker? Not for me.

Well what does it make him? If he has scored 20 goals he is a 20 goal striker!

[KRBFC]

Well what does it make him? If he has scored 20 goals he is a 20 goal striker!

But I was talking more about would he be considered capable of consistently scoring 20 a season? His goals per season ratio would revolve around how many penalties hes given.

[cricketfieldclarets]

But I was talking more about would he be considered capable of consistently scoring 20 a season? His goals per season ratio would revolve around how many penalties hes given.

Well someone better tell Harry Kane to hand his golden boot to Lukaku as over 1/3 of his goals were penalties this season!

[KRBFC]

Well someone better tell Harry Kane to hand his golden boot to Lukaku as over 1/3 of his goals were penalties this season!

But that isn't the point I was making. Stats are irrelevant and misleading especially if you're judging a player off stats alone without considering the different variables within the stats. I'm sure Olivier Giroud had the best minutes per goal ratio last season....

[cricketfieldclarets]

without considering the different variables within the stats.

Which is exactly what I did with Pickford, Heaton and to a lesser extent Foster

[bartons baggage]

That will be Ben Foster with 6 clean sheets?

Behind Heaton on 10 and Forster on 14 and both let in less overall? Even Lee Grant had a better season than Foster!

You have a valid argument,but i feel CT's superior knowledge on all things,trumps anything you say.