Oh dear! Michael

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:23 pm

Did anyone just see our former hero let a player wander past him, and then the look around as though where is everyone.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:26 pm

He stood like a training ground dustbin.
He just looks lost there, poor lad.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:27 pm

Agreed, I can see him getting another slating on there forum but they all look poor from front to back.

mickleoverclaret · Post by **mickleoverclaret** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:29 pm

This is why we didn't buy another centre half in the summer, he's coming back for 5 mil to sit on our bench.

KefkaClaret · Post by **KefkaClaret** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:29 pm

I wonder if he's happy there? His bank account certainly will be. I'd take him back in January, we could do with a 3rd choice centre-back.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:36 pm

It's just all gone wrong at Everton and he's got caught up in all that and looks like a player with absolutely no confidence. Sadly, one of his reasons for moving was to improve his World Cup chances but it looks like he might have damaged them.

Outstanding for us, really hope he finds his form and gets his England place back.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:39 pm

totally agree there Tony, on the first 20 odd minutes he looks like a defender who is trying to hard to cover for overs who he doesn't seem to trust or think is capable, hence him coming out too far at times leaving space behind.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:46 pm

The one thing he had in his favour here that he no longer has is Sean Dyche. He fit into the Dyche 'framework' perfectly but he's now having to learn a different way of playing. Meanwhile Tarky has slotted in alongside Mee perfectly.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:50 pm

Many a thread on here this season stating that Ben made him look good, which I tended to dismiss at first but the more I see him the more I tend to believe this could be the case. Sean does have that knack of spotting a good defender and he himself probably always had the brain of a great defender but not everyone gets the physical attributes to go right to the top in this sport.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:55 pm

Also lots of threads saying how great pickford is. Said it at the time. He is terrible. Done nothing to warrant his price or reputation. Never seen a keeper parry so many shots into danger.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:58 pm

snail12345 wrote:Many a thread on here this season stating that Ben made him look good, which I tended to dismiss at first but the more I see him the more I tend to believe this could be the case. Sean does have that knack of spotting a good defender and he himself probably always had the brain of a great defender but not everyone gets the physical attributes to go right to the top in this sport.

Is it Ben or is the framework which makes it that much easier for our central defenders to play?

Not sure who it was I was speaking to but we looked at the goal we scored at Everton. We agreed that Keane probably didn't do a lot different than he'd have done with us but Ashley Williams certainly didn't cover in the way Ben would have done. I think it's partly Ben and partly the framework.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:59 pm

Pickford is still young and learning and could have a great career, is this parrying thing something he has been taught in the past, as one of those stats fads that a certain keeper had x amount of clean sheets from parrying. Another highlight of our goal keeping coach that our keepers tend to take the ball and not parry.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:59 pm

Its all Dyche. Look at how Tarks slots in. How Vokes improves. Ward. Arfield. Heaton. Lowton. Hendrick. Jbg.

The guys a genius.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:01 pm

Tony once again praise to the coaching within our team, they all seem to know where everyone is at any one time, there is no looking at each other for blame and very rarely do we see a fall out or dirty look

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:02 pm

snail12345 wrote:Pickford is still young and learning and could have a great career, is this parrying thing something he has been taught in the past, as one of those stats fads that a certain keeper had x amount of clean sheets from parrying. Another highlight of our goal keeping coach that our keepers tend to take the ball and not parry.

I hope so. Nothing against pickford personally.

Its an interesting one. My dad always used to point to how historically engkish keepers tended to catch shots at any oppprtunity. Whereas european keepers tended to punch clear or parry round the post.

Our keepers are old school in their approach and make everything look simple.

How many worldies do oir keepers make? 5 or 10 a season. But theyre not making multiple 'camera' saves a match. They make everything look simple. And the defence helps.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:03 pm

The key point seems to be that Keane hasn't been shown how to play for Everton. Surely the coaching staff there should teach him their ways.

That's something we do very well at Burnley these days. Mind you it does take time - a season maybe if you look at how Brady, Defour and Hendrick have progressed.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:04 pm

Pickford has had plenty of practice these last 2 years!
Sadly Keane is lost without the "Burnley defensive system" and Ben Mee.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:04 pm

Keown just hit it on the head no pressing, we are that used to seeing our guys maximum effort and press I think sometimes we forget how much those constant presses take the pressure off our rear guard.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:05 pm

snail12345 wrote:Tony once again praise to the coaching within our team, they all seem to know where everyone is at any one time, there is no looking at each other for blame and very rarely do we see a fall out or dirty look

Just watch when one of our players makes a mistake, someone is immediately over to let him know there is not a problem and just to get on with the game. Likewise, a player does something well and others are quick to congratulate. The team spirit must be unbelievably good.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:08 pm

yeah I love that side to our game ONE BURNLEY

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:14 pm

Nothing to do with the goal they conceded but strange that Williams is playing RCH and Keane LCH. They both normally play the other!

BTW I wonder if he believed the hype that he was going back to OT and he's had a bit of a comedown?

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:14 pm

right what just happened I was getting a beer came back penalty save

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:17 pm

Piston I do believe you have something there "prodigal son" syndrome may have kicked in slightly however I'm not here to slag him or find fault I'm just bewildered how he looks so poor amongst another group.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:19 pm

just goes to show you can buy a squad but you cant buy that spirit

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:24 pm

I cant make my mind up weather that comment was a compliment or a bit dismissive of our great defence, he is exposed because he feels he has to cover everywhere because of the lack of steal from his fellow defenders

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:26 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Is it Ben or is the framework which makes it that much easier for our central defenders to play?

Not sure who it was I was speaking to but we looked at the goal we scored at Everton. We agreed that Keane probably didn't do a lot different than he'd have done with us but Ashley Williams certainly didn't cover in the way Ben would have done. I think it's partly Ben and partly the framework.

Was me that picked up on it. Keane ran out and closed off Hendrick's shooting angle to near post and Williams just stood there ..... At Burnley Mee would have covered the shooting angle to the far post forcing the shot down the middle giving a keeper a better chance of protecting the middle of the goal.

It is framework and it seems Keane is still playing to that framework in a team that doesn't follow suit as we do here. Just before that and on Hendrick's first touch across the Everton player - we'd of probably had someone diving in front of him to block and 1st time shot instead of a tame effort at nicking the ball away (similar to Lowton at the edge of the area on Saturday diving in to block).

He is a great player - but like Heaton at Bristol ..... If those around you aren't on the same level or gameplan - it doesnt matter how good you are.

The same weirdly happened when we had Djemba-Djemba - he was unreal and was a cut above our players at the time .... He just looked lost though as he'd play balls through or spot passes which the rest of the team were not anticipating so it'd go for a throw or to opposition. Didn't make him a poor player which it sometimea seemed though - He just didn't have anyone on his wavelength around him.

(I'd LOVE to have Djemba-Djemba from even then ... in the team we have today though)

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:27 pm

2-0, Everton are shocking

Guitargeorge · Post by **Guitargeorge** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:28 pm

Now 0-2 down

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:29 pm

bfccrazy so true and a good point ref their defending against us

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:29 pm

to be fair I think anyone would look **** alongside Williams

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:30 pm

I bet they are now rethinking that BIG SAM idea

Guitargeorge · Post by **Guitargeorge** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:30 pm

The Atalanta fans are bouncing so much in the stand that the cameraman can’t keep his camera steady!! Hilarious!

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:31 pm

Hipper wrote:The key point seems to be that Keane hasn't been shown how to play for Everton. Surely the coaching staff there should teach him their ways.

That's something we do very well at Burnley these days. Mind you it does take time - a season maybe if you look at how Brady, Defour and Hendrick have progressed.

Look at what Dyche keeps saying about Charlie Taylor - he's been here 6 months nearly and is still being taught. Imagine us spending that much on a player who had that much pedigree a few years ago and just saying "well he's here to learn how to work for us". There would be an uproar!!

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:36 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Just watch when one of our players makes a mistake, someone is immediately over to let him know there is not a problem and just to get on with the game. Likewise, a player does something well and others are quick to congratulate. The team spirit must be unbelievably good.

I did shout "uhhhhhh football fwendddd" when Hendrick/Brady one of them made a run to chase a ball on Sat and missed it then had a little high five as they passed each other on the jog back into position.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:36 pm

lol bfccrazy

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:37 pm

does have to be said though, Keane has gone from looking a confident and competent International player to someone that looks out of his depth - confidence is obviously in tatters

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:38 pm

Its going to be a big job at Everton, they need nearly a full clear out and probably a transitional period of about 2 seasons to get this right.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:40 pm

snail12345 wrote:Its going to be a big job at Everton, they need nearly a full clear out and probably a transitional period of about 2 seasons to get this right.

Seems to prove the old addage.

Everton have a brilliant team on paper - Just a shame that football's played on grass though.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:44 pm

It does make you wonder has Rooney with all his experience and passion been a good influence in the changing room or could he be detrimental. Once again not a slagging of Rooney just seems strange since he arrived they seem to be very strange

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:51 pm

snail12345 wrote:It does make you wonder has Rooney with all his experience and passion been a good influence in the changing room or could he be detrimental. Once again not a slagging of Rooney just seems strange since he arrived they seem to be very strange

There are a few in there that could give it a weird atmosphere. Sigurdsson was probably worth 3/4 wins a season to Swansea from set pieces and playing a ball in for a striker. Rooney doesnt have that fear factor anymore I dont think, he's also just spent a while playing midfield for United and won't be the Lukaku replacement that Everton needed.

Niasse is scoring for them but wasn't getting a game at the start of the season for apparently just being out of favour with the manager.

Pickford is getting plaudits - Keane just got his big move for big money - Williams has been a highlight reel defender for a while and is being shown up at a higher level of team. Baines never really fulfilled his early promise.

In an odd way, the Everton team is kind of the exact oposite of ours personality and workrate wise.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:53 pm

Keane struggling to live up to the transfer fee and it is getting worse for him. That said he knew what he was doing,made his choice and as a Claret i have to say tough.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:58 pm

Came on to mention the fact that he looks shellshocked and it is all here!

5th just gone in! Mr Dyche.....steer clear!

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:59 pm

This is like being in a foreign town in a foreign country by yourself and rounding up 10 other blokes for a bar fight with the pub next door after spending 10 minutes in their company. you just don't know what you're going to have fighting on you're side. These lot look like they have never played a game together ever

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:59 pm

bfccrazy wrote:Look at what Dyche keeps saying about Charlie Taylor - he's been here 6 months nearly and is still being taught. Imagine us spending that much on a player who had that much pedigree a few years ago and just saying "well he's here to learn how to work for us". There would be an uproar!!

Dyche is old fashioned like this - if you go back in the day this is the classic Liverpool and Brian Clough way - by a lower league prospect then teach him the way you play for about a year or more before making them a star in your team. It is no secret that Pope and Tarks look so good this season, next season Ward is going to really struggle to hold down his place by the half way mark if Taylor continues to impress behind the scenes

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:00 pm

IanMcL wrote:Came on to mention the fact that he looks shellshocked and it is all here!

5th just gone in! Mr Dyche.....steer clear!

Great business by mr dyche...£30 million?

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:02 pm

Even the commentator asked if Keane is being exposed at Everton unlike he was at Burnley. Guess that's a backhanded compliment about out framework and defensive structure.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:10 pm

Gents great chat tonight, as a member and poster on Clarets Mad since 2003 and regular poster and follower and then becoming a member on here at the beginning of last year, tonight was my first post on UTC thanks for a good night and conversation.

mickleoverclaret · Post by **mickleoverclaret** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:10 pm

Wonder if Keane's relative performances there and here will make Everton think twice about approaching Dyche, especially now they seem to have exhausted all other options.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:12 pm

I don't think Beckenbauer himself would look anything other than hopeless next to Ashley Williams, who played worse than anybody I've ever seen since Quow for Northampton.

snail12345 · Post by **snail12345** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:13 pm

You would have to be a special kind of special to even consider that job at the moment as I said earlier it needs a complete clear out and then 2 season transition