McNeil could have gone to Cheltenham

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:17 pm

sounds like he could have been off on loan had he not scored
https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... wn-2375980

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:21 pm

I'd change the headline/title. It looks misleading, like he's on his way there.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:23 pm

Don't worry Frank this website thrives on click bait.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:30 pm

Been to Doncaster, Haydock, Ripon, Aintree but never Cheltenham. Would love to go there for the Gold Cup

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:38 pm

Chris Wood could have gone to Cheltenham?

Maybe there’s still a chance?

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:40 pm

Claretforever wrote:Chris Wood could have gone to Cheltenham?

Maybe there’s still a chance?

Chris was excellent against West Ham, he is a better footballer than Vokes

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:45 pm

Top Claret wrote:Chris was excellent against West Ham, he is a better footballer than Vokes

Chris Wood has got an excellent scoring record for Burnley v West Ham, 5 in 4 games I believe. And, I don't think he started all of those games.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:04 pm

McNeil to Cheltenham? Bonkers!

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:19 pm

With rumours of us in for a winger from abroad, and Brady approaching fitness again, he might still end up there. Would be a good move for him and would hope that we can send more there to be taken care of by Duff in the future. Re-assess the move in 30 days time.

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:21 pm

Feel like we should be trying to get him to a higher level than Cheltenham tbh - though there would be guaranteed game time

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:36 pm

He's better than a tier 4 player, just what would he learn from this sort of move?

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:39 pm

The lad has only just turned 19. Half a season playing regularly at that level did wonders for Jimmy Dunne, and he was a year older. I’m not sure he yet has a record with enough on it to convince clubs higher up that he’s worth a place every week. However, Duff knows him from the reserves, and so is able to make a more informed call on him than most others might.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:42 pm

Bit of a duff move by Dyche if he had left on loan.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:45 pm

burnleytom wrote:The lad has only just turned 19. Half a season playing regularly at that level did wonders for Jimmy Dunne, and he was a year older. I’m not sure he yet has a record with enough on it to convince clubs higher up that he’s worth a place every week. However, Duff knows him from the reserves, and so is able to make a more informed call on him than most others might.

One player in our PL history who seems to have done OK on loan. That hardly fills me with confidence that a loan to Lg2 will benefit a young man who has already played PL football

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:46 pm

“What would he learn from this sort of move”? Absolutely loads. It’s a huge geographical move for a start. He’ll probably have to live alone. How much do kids his age learn from doing this at university or college when they move away? Secondly, he’ll develop physically from playing competitive football every week. If he is the great player that he might be, then he’ll be Cheltenham’s best player. That’ll come with expectation to deliver every week, which will be completely new to him, as at the moment, there is rightly no pressure on him. In his position, he’ll be up against full backs who are likely to be a lot more physical against him than he might get in the Premier League and as a slight lad, that’ll also be good for his development. He’ll be regularly playing in a team fighting to stay in the Football League, so will develop the ability to perform under pressure. He’ll also be playing with players far less capable of getting him the ball in good areas, and so may have to develop parts of his game like taking men on.

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:48 pm

boatshed bill wrote:One player in our PL history who seems to have done OK on loan. That hardly fills me with confidence that a loan to Lg2 will benefit a young man who has already played PL football

How about Kevin Long?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:57 pm

burnleytom wrote:How about Kevin Long?

His loan "career" took him until he was 26, loans at about 5 clubs? Is that OK?

dandeclaret · Post by **dandeclaret** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:59 pm

Slightly confused by the locking of the time to prem years, but Jay went to (I think) Stirling Albion (who) and learnt loads. Kyle Lafferty went to Darlington similarly learning a lot.

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:00 pm

Long is the most obvious example, and has clearly gone on to play at Premier League level. Aiden O’Neill is another who has played in the Premier League who did pretty well on loan.

Away from that, there are others like Whitmore, Anderson, and Hendrie who whilst they may not have made it at Burnley have done well enough on loan to earn themselves moves to clubs either equal to, or higher than the division they first went on loan to.

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:01 pm

boatshed bill wrote:His loan "career" took him until he was 26, loans at about 5 clubs? Is that OK?

When did it start though?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:07 pm

dandeclaret wrote:Slightly confused by the locking of the time to prem years, but Jay went to (I think) Stirling Albion (who) and learnt loads. Kyle Lafferty went to Darlington similarly learning a lot.

Because we are in the PL now, Dan.

I am not a fan of the loan system at all, never have been. Are we doing our best for young players in our youth/U23 system? Do we approve of what Chelsea and Man City are doing by stockpiling young players and using the loan system the way they do?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:08 pm

burnleytom wrote:When did it start though?

I think he was 20. Didn't he go out in our first PL season?

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:09 pm

Pugh went on to play Premiership football (though not with us).

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:12 pm

boatshed bill wrote:I think he was 20. Didn't he go out in our first PL season?

Which fits both of the criteria you set out when you claimed that McNeil would be our only one.

dandeclaret · Post by **dandeclaret** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:15 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Because we are in the PL now, Dan.

I am not a fan of the loan system at all, never have been. Are we doing our best for young players in our youth/U23 system? Do we approve of what Chelsea and Man City are doing by stockpiling young players and using the loan system the way they do?

There’s a difference in having 65 players or whatever Chelsea have now, and 1 or 2 to gain vital experience because you think it will rapidly assist them to become key players.

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:18 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Because we are in the PL now, Dan.

I am not a fan of the loan system at all, never have been. Are we doing our best for young players in our youth/U23 system? Do we approve of what Chelsea and Man City are doing by stockpiling young players and using the loan system the way they do?

I personally don’t agree with the stockpiling of yoing players whatsoever. However to dismiss the loan system entirely and to have never been a fan of it is a little short sighted in my view.

Last summer, in what is widely considered one of the most successful England teams for many years, the squad had embarked on 46 different loan spells, with 16 of them playing at least 10 senior matches in the lower leagues of English football. Did the loan system do them any good?

We had Mee and Trippier on loan from City. Did that loan do anything positive for their careers, or our club? Both came from City. Keane was also a loan, who had also been out to numerous other clubs before us. Again, did that loan do anything positive for his careers or our club?

There are loads of possible positives available from the loan system, and it’s impact in the game for a long time can’t be dismissed.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:19 pm

burnleytom wrote:Which fits both of the criteria you set out when you claimed that McNeil would be our only one.

I didn't say that, I was referring to Kevin Long and his extended loan career.
It's my opinion that we'd be better off keeping McNeil with us, he may play a substantial part in the second half of our season.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:22 pm

burnleytom wrote:I personally don’t agree with the stockpiling of yoing players whatsoever. However to dismiss the loan system entirely and to have never been a fan of it is a little short sighted in my view.

Last summer, in what is widely considered one of the most successful England teams for many years, the squad had embarked on 46 different loan spells, with 16 of them playing at least 10 senior matches in the lower leagues of English football. Did the loan system do them any good?

We had Mee and Trippier on loan from City. Did that loan do anything positive for their careers, or our club? Both came from City. Keane was also a loan, who had also been out to numerous other clubs before us. Again, did that loan do anything positive for his careers or our club?

There are loads of possible positives available from the loan system, and it’s impact in the game for a long time can’t be dismissed.

Fair points, particularly with Mee and Trippier with us. But we were a Championship club, not League2. Can you imagine City sending them to Cheltenham?

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:24 pm

Am I missing something?

Lennon injured. Brady not been reliably fit at any point this season. Nothing more than speculative rumours linking us with possible incoming wide players and people think it would be a good idea for McNeil to go Cheltenham on loan in this window?

He proved on Sunday he has the attributes to be part of a match winning team in this division. We need him here in and around the first team. He might not be ready to start all the time but on the assumption that going forward we set-up and play like we did on Sunday then he has a role and it will be a much healthier environment for him to learn and develop than the period from the start of the season up until Boxing Day.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:37 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Pugh went on to play Premiership football (though not with us).

Pugh has been quoted saying that being released by Burnley kick-started his career, not loans to the Conference.

burnleytom · Post by **burnleytom** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 pm

EarbyClaret wrote:Am I missing something?

Lennon injured. Brady not been reliably fit at any point this season. Nothing more than speculative rumours linking us with possible incoming wide players and people think it would be a good idea for McNeil to go Cheltenham on loan in this window?

He proved on Sunday he has the attributes to be part of a match winning team in this division. We need him here in and around the first team. He might not be ready to start all the time but on the assumption that going forward we set-up and play like we did on Sunday then he has a role and it will be a much healthier environment for him to learn and develop than the period from the start of the season up until Boxing Day.

It’s only crisis that has brought him to anywhere particularly near the team. With the options of playing 3 at the back (not a preference of mine) that also lessens his opportunity to play, playing Hendrick in a narrow wide position (which we’ve done in the past) and the potential for 3 available wingers for two positions, then I do still think that it’s a late window opportunity. The opportunity for him to play every week, even in League Two is not one to be overlooked.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:23 pm

Whatever we think of the loan system, one goal...should it really be so influential regarding where he spends the next 5 months? Weird IMO

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:56 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Fair points, particularly with Mee and Trippier with us. But we were a Championship club, not League2. Can you imagine City sending them to Cheltenham?

Chelsea sent Jacob Maddux to Cheltenham, so I don't see why City wouldn't do similar.

I agree that McNeil seems to have made it to first team standard without going on loan, so it isn't necessary for him. But as a general principle, I think it can do a lot of good.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:21 pm

burnleytom wrote:The opportunity for him to play every week, even in League Two is not one to be overlooked.

Even if it possibly weakens our team?

He played well against West Ham and he might play well in other vital matches during the season.

Staying in the Prem is everything to a club like ours.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:40 am

EarbyClaret wrote:Am I missing something?

Lennon injured. Brady not been reliably fit at any point this season. Nothing more than speculative rumours linking us with possible incoming wide players and people think it would be a good idea for McNeil to go Cheltenham on loan in this window?

He proved on Sunday he has the attributes to be part of a match winning team in this division. We need him here in and around the first team. He might not be ready to start all the time but on the assumption that going forward we set-up and play like we did on Sunday then he has a role and it will be a much healthier environment for him to learn and develop than the period from the start of the season up until Boxing Day.

I was thinking the same. It could be currently his place to lose in the first team and wouldn't be having him go out on loan anywhere.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:21 am

boatshed bill wrote:Fair points, particularly with Mee and Trippier with us. But we were a Championship club, not League2. Can you imagine City sending them to Cheltenham?

Once you've accepted the premise that, in principle, a loan to the right sort of environment is a positive for a young player who isn't playing for his parent club, then the level of that loan is a totally secondary issue. The only question is whether League Two is better for his advancement than playing U23 games at Burnley. Burnley cannot dictate which clubs come in for him - if Championship clubs want him and can guarantee to use him, then great; if not we have to look to leagues one and two.

Until such time as we're producing McNeils on a regular basis we'll struggle to send players to Championship clubs as their first loan because clubs won't trust the player to be good enough. It's very hard to judge players on U23 football alone so a lot of loans must be based on the relationship between the parent club and the loaning club. Ours with Cheltenham will be especially strong because Duff knows Dyche and the players concerned, and we trust Duff.

Of course, this all assumes the player isn't going to play regularly for their parent. In the case of McNeil, it may well be that the thinking has changed because of a combination of Lennon's long-ish term injury and McNeil's performance against West Ham. It's well known that we are looking for a wide player this month, and had Lennon been fit it's quite posssible McNeil would have found himself 5th choice and so a loan would have been the obvious answer.

It's easy to say, "well, he's obviously good enough", but judging whether young players are ready to sink or swim is an inexact science and in fairness to Dyche it definitely wasn't obvious from the last half an hour of the Everton game, when he failed to make an impression in what had virtually become a training ground exercise. Even now, we need to be a bit careful in building up hopes for McNeil this season - he's a kid, and it would be a surprise if he consistently hit the heights he reached on Sunday. Apart from anything else, West Ham probably knew nothing about him. Future opponents will spend a lot more time trying to limit his strengths and exploit his weaknessess.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:23 am

When Duff went to Cheltenham he quickly asked about taking McNeil on loan in January and was told no then, Duff himself said so at a fans forum. I think this must be a nothing story from their local press.

I'd be very surprised that we'd be looking for a club towards the bottom of League Two if we were sending him out on loan.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:45 am

There is a quote from Duff attached to the article though - "one might have got away from us because he started for Burnley on Sunday and scored". But still - long road between Dyche saying "yes possibly, see how Christmas pans out" a fortnight ago, and the loan actually turning into something in the new year. No-one knows how concrete any proposal was, if indeed there really was one.

Seems to me that with loans, the relationship between the manager of the team taking the player on loan and the parent is key. We know Duff and can trust him, both to use the player correctly and give him good game time if he earns it, and to develop the player on and off the pitch. That's often more important than the level of the loan. We'd be mad not to try and use Cheltenham as a bit of a proving ground whilst he's there if we can.

On a tangent, after a slow start Duff now appears to be getting some impressive results. Cheltenham are 6 unbeaten and having been right in the mire when he arrived, are now pretty much in midtable. Good to see.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:50 am

claretspice wrote:There is a quote from Duff attached to the article though - "one might have got away from us because he started for Burnley on Sunday and scored". But still - long road between Dyche saying "yes possibly, see how Christmas pans out" a fortnight ago, and the loan actually turning into something in the new year. No-one knows how concrete any proposal was, if indeed there really was one.

Seems to me that with loans, the relationship between the manager of the team taking the player on loan and the parent is key. We know Duff and can trust him, both to use the player correctly and give him good game time if he earns it, and to develop the player on and off the pitch. That's often more important than the level of the loan. We'd be mad not to try and use Cheltenham as a bit of a proving ground whilst he's there if we can.

On a tangent, after a slow start Duff now appears to be getting some impressive results. Cheltenham are 6 unbeaten and having been right in the mire when he arrived, are now pretty much in midtable. Good to see.

But he was the player Duff was referring to when he said we'd told him no and that was a week or so after he'd gone to Cheltenham. Relationships between managers are often the key to loans. I remember Kyle Lafferty going to Darlington whose manager at the time had done coaching courses with Cotterill and the two got on very well. I think if it were appropriate then it would be no surprise to see players going out on loan to Fleetwood, Cheltenham and Grimsby.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:09 am

With constant injury worries over Defour, Lennon (likely out for season), Brady and even JBG of late why on earth would we even think about letting McNeil go out on loan at this moment in time?

ecc · Post by **ecc** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:11 am

I think a loan move could be good for Dwight but, with all due respect to Cheltenham, not to L2. That said, if it was going to be L2 there's one club where we know he'd be looked after.

To be perfectly honest, until we bring in cover for wide midfielders Dwight has to stay at TM (in my humble opinion, of course).

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:15 am

Spijed wrote:With constant injury worries over Defour, Lennon (likely out for season), Brady and even JBG of late why on earth would we even think about letting McNeil go out on loan at this moment in time?

I don't think anyone is saying we would, right now. Might have been a different story before he'd performed in the Premier League as he did on Sunday, and before Lennon got injured, though. Things change quickly in football.

The debate as I read it is more about the suitability of a loan to Cheltenham for one of our young players in general terms.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:19 am

Aren't the rules on loans getting a bit of an overhaul sometime soon?

Turfmoor321 · Post by **Turfmoor321** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:26 pm

I can 100% guarantee that Talks were in place for Cheltenham to take McNeil on loan this January and also can confirm that despite the goal this loan move still may happen watch this space!

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:53 pm

Turfmoor321 wrote:I can 100% guarantee that Talks were in place for Cheltenham to take McNeil on loan this January and also can confirm that despite the goal this loan move still may happen watch this space!

Then that means we'll have somebody coming in. We are't stupid enough to let him go, otherwise.