Andre Gray

spt_claret · Post by **spt_claret** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:12 pm

frankel wrote:Andre did really well today, just like the rest of the team. If we continue to play in this way away from home we won't be going down for sure.
And let's not forget Andre is still a young player and learning all the time.
Now is the time to back him, not snipe at him.
Contrast in performance from wed to today is massive.

He's a year older than Danny Ings. Yeah maybe he's been a Football League professional for just 3 years, but he also hasn't been riddled with injuries that have robbed him of 3 seasons of his career.

Gray still has room to grow just due to his inexperience, but the reality is that as a footballer he's not as good as Ings, Jay, Austin, or honestly I'd say either Vokes or Barnes. His physical attributes, specifically pace but also his strength given his size, give him an edge but in the Premiership that isn't always enough- Vardy bagged 3 against City sure but went on a long goal drought recently and took a full season to get up to Prem scratch. Gray can develop and get better and he will get better (though probably never as good in technical terms as Jay or Ings), but I can't really argue that he's CURRENTLY a Premier League level footballer. Because he's not. He will be if he keeps his head on right and gets the right coaching and development but he isn't currently and at 25 is older than most developing players so it's understandable why some fans are critical or concerned.

This isn't me saying get shut or drop him or anything- just that right now, he's not good enough for the Prem in several key attributes. Neither are several other players in our team, and he's only going to get good enough by actually playing and learning, but I still much, much prefer us setting up 451 with Vokes up top, though until Gudmundsson is fit we don't really have the strength in the wings for that. Which means that basically whatever we do currently, we're only going to be 80-90% of the way there and need everyone to play at the absolute top of their game.

If nothing else we still know what we need in January- We've got Barton now to open up 451 when Defour isn't fully fit or needs subbing or someone is injured, we (still) just need that pacey winger, because that's the 1 thing that has always let down Boyd and moreso Arfield at this level. But Dyche knows that too, so I trust in him. But yes, a better striker would be nice- Vokes is plenty good enough when he has the right service, Barnes is limited but does his job well, Gray isn't there yet but will develop, and Bamford...is disappointingly untested, but all in all that still requires us being able to always field the best 11 we have, set up exactly how we need to get the best out of everybody- which as injuries and suspensions start to creep in, is not ideal.

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:16 pm

Finally people are starting to see the light. He's a poor footballer...The last person you want in a 2 vs 1 break situation. He will always do the wrong thing.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:53 pm

Will he be Jermain Defoe or Rohann Ricketts? Both showed good early promise, one delivered on it, the other didn't.

Neither, he will be Andre Gray. A mixed bag.

It's all down to judgement. Mine is that he will be a top end Championship striker at best. That's not a criticism, just a view on his strengths and weaknesses, plus likely potential. I was defending him (staunchly) earlier in the season about his tweets, but in this honest debate about his attributes I have to stick to the line I have been saying since we signed him.

The issue here is that some think opinion disproves stats. It never does, as long as you interpret them right. I really hope I am wrong, but I make a living on this sort of prediction so feel quite sure about it sadly. He doesn't do it against the better sides.

On the flip side, Joey's stats are all good - probably doesn't bode well for Defour, who on the face of it I thought was an upgrade, but may not have been. Likely to be good (and crucial) for us.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:53 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Will he be Jermain Defoe or Rohann Ricketts? Both showed good early promise, one delivered on it, the other didn't.

Neither, he will be Andre Gray. A mixed bag.

It's all down to judgement. Mine is that he will be a top end Championship striker at best. That's not a criticism, just a view on his strengths and weaknesses, plus likely potential. I was defending him (staunchly) earlier in the season about his tweets, but in this honest debate about his attributes I have to stick to the line I have been saying since we signed him.

The issue here is that some think opinion disproves stats. It never does, as long as you interpret them right. I really hope I am wrong, but I make a living on this sort of prediction so feel quite sure about it sadly. He doesn't do it against the better sides.

On the flip side, Joey's stats are all good - probably doesn't bode well for Defour, who on the face of it I thought was an upgrade, but may not have been. Likely to be good (and crucial) for us.

The issue is that you seem to have an opinion on Gray (which of course you are entitled to) and you then try and take selective statistics to justify that opinion.

For example, excluding penalties he scored against the top sides or excluding assists.

If you want to look at things in the round then the most important statistics are surely that :
Burnley won the league
Gray was the top scorer
Gray played in all the games when available

If Gray "struggled" against the top sides surely the above 3 would not have happened as why would Dyche pick a player who was not contributing when we were playing a top half team ?

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:27 am

mohamed69 wrote:Finally people are starting to see the light. He's a poor footballer...The last person you want in a 2 vs 1 break situation. He will always do the wrong thing.

Bolton away ? Fulham away ? Birmingham away just 3 pff the top of my head always does the wrong thing ?

ShabbaRanks · Post by **ShabbaRanks** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:24 pm

what_no_pies wrote:We created fewer than average chances last season and concede far more than average as we also did last year. Sorry, but that second sentence is nonsense.

We may well have created fewer than average, but we still created far more than what we are doing now, so the point stands that his offsides are taking up a larger percentages of the few chances we create, meaning its even more important that he cuts it out. My point stands.

Speaking of nonsense, I'm not sorry to wonder what on earth you're babbling about with the defensive/conceding part of the game, and what that has got to do with Andre being offside a lot.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:05 pm

On the Gray offsides, there are two players involved: the player receiving the ball and the player passing the ball.

At times Gray does get caught out, he needs to look along the line a bit more and make sure he's not drifted off. At other times he's trying to make runs but the pass is delayed because our midfielders are rarely capable of the quick ball. With a player like Gray you want him to be running on to a quick pass, what often happens is the midfielder gets the ball, Gray sets off, and then they take another touch, look up and think and then play the ball, by which time Gray is offside.

ShabbaRanks · Post by **ShabbaRanks** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:59 pm

True enough, but it's not been as much of a problem for any other striker we've had, to my mind since we came down from the PL the first time.

Jay Rod and Ings for example are comparative in terms of their pace and were happy to burst onto through balls and weren't as bad for it.

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:07 pm

joey13 wrote:Bolton away ? Fulham away ? Birmingham away just 3 pff the top of my head always does the wrong thing ?

In the championship his strength and pace made up for his awful touch and terrible passing. You gave me three examples. I could give you three dreadful examples PER GAME.

Also, we are talking about the premier league. Thanks.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:10 pm

Liverpool ?

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:12 pm

claretdom wrote:Liverpool ?

He had a good first half wouldn't say he did much second half

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:14 pm

He played a simple ball behind vokes, forcing him to stop and turn back...Which luckily worked out well.

His goal was great, but watching it back looks like he kind of miscontrolled it. Just looks like he's always chasing the ball and he's never actually in control

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:16 pm

I guess when he cut back inside onto his left and calmly placed it in the corner, he really stumbled on the ball and it just rolled luckily into the right area.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:20 pm

claretdom wrote:I guess when he cut back inside onto his left and calmly placed it in the corner, he really stumbled on the ball and it just rolled luckily into the right area.

Your probably one of those that tells me his goal at Charlton last season was a great first touch aren't you?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:20 pm

Not as good as his second touch I will give you that.

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:21 pm

claretdom wrote:I guess when he cut back inside onto his left and calmly placed it in the corner, he really stumbled on the ball and it just rolled luckily into the right area.

Yeah kinda looked like he did stumble a little bit with his second touch. His cut back was a good move, if not a little predictable from that angle.

But this is besides the point. Of course if you put a professional footballer on the pitch for thousands of minutes they will have good moments. They will also have bad moments. If you watch them live regularly you will be able to judge the balance of good vs bad and be able to make a judgment of that player. Hence this thread.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:21 pm

[quote="mohamed69"]In the championship his strength and pace made up for his awful touch and terrible passing. You gave me three examples. I could give you three dreadful examples PER GAME.

Also, we are talking about the premier league. Thanks

He would have had difficulty scoring in the Premier league last season , I would say he has the best first touch of all our forwards and will score given the opportunities, his first touch to set up Boyd wasn't bad , or maybe he just mis controlled it and just got lucky .

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:23 pm

joey13 wrote: I would say he has the best first touch of all our forwards

You must be a troll based on this ? He has the worst touch of anyone on our team, probably including Heaton

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:58 pm

mohamed69 wrote:You must be a troll based on this ? He has the worst touch of anyone on our team, probably including Heaton

Be careful using that word , it's not acceptable

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:06 pm

There really has been some sh-ite spouted on this thread but Grays goal v Liverpool being lucky is up there with the lot.

And he had a bad second half did he ?....given burnley hardly touched the ball in that second half I'm guessing he wasn't on his own.

As for his first touch it just shows how little you know about football - how can you compare his touch when he is getting the ball pinged into him from 60 yards with one and usually 2 defenders around him to say one of our defenders who gets a 5 yards square pass rolled into him with no opposition player within 20 yards ? Because that's actually how we play for most of the game.

I think his touch is similar to all of our strikers - sometimes it sticks and often he and our other strikers lose it. If you are playIng it to Costa or Aguero then you'll notice their first touch is better than Gray, Barnes or Vokes.....if you are playing it to Gifton Noel Williams it's worse !

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:11 pm

Words fail me when you describe someone as knowing nothing about football whilst defending Andre grays first touch

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:25 pm

Words failed me also. I have played to a decent standard for most of my life, and, like most on here, watched countless hours. Obviously most of the time a striker will be under much more pressure and receive worse service...but come on. We are all able to watch a game and judge what is and isn't a good touch, even taking into account the ball and the pressure the player is under. I find it incomprehensible that you think his touch is better than that of Barnes. Just incomprehensible.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:27 pm

Not what I said - I was commenting on him comparing it to the rest of our team which.

I didn't say anywhere in my post he had a good or bad touch - I said it was similar to our other strikers.

Any other sh-ite points to raise ?

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:28 pm

TVC15 wrote:Not what I said - I was commenting on him comparing it to the rest of our team which.

I didn't say anywhere in my post he had a good or bad touch - I said it was similar to our other strikers.

Any other sh-ite points to raise ?

I think he is saying that Gray's touch is bad when compared to the rest of our team. I think he is saying this because he has eyes.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:30 pm

Has pace unlike most of our team and is strong. Defenders hate it. Needs games after being out so long and time to adjust in this league. Also needs the the right service. Will come good.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:33 pm

Incomprehensible ? Really ?

So you think you opinion is more valid than Sean Dyche and the vast majority of Burnley fans ?

And you think saying you have played at a decent standard (which I doubt) makes your views on Gray more valid.

Between you, Bumba and the other clown so far you have all said that Gray :

Does not have pace
Has an awful touch
Only scores against bottom half of championship teams

FFS what on earth has Dyche done spending £9m on a dud ?!!!

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:42 pm

TVC15 wrote:Incomprehensible ? Really ?

So you think you opinion is more valid than Sean Dyche and the vast majority of Burnley fans ?

And you think saying you have played at a decent standard (which I doubt) makes your views on Gray more valid.

Between you, Bumba and the other clown so far you have all said that Gray :

Does not have pace
Has an awful touch
Only scores against bottom half of championship teams

FFS what on earth has Dyche done spending £9m on a dud ?!!!

He clearly has pace and strength. But his touch is awful, yes. And I'm not sure SD would disagree...he has openly stated that his link up play needs more work. How can you watch him play a match and see things any differently? It really is incomprehensible.

Me saying I have played at a good level was in response to your "shows how little you know about football". So, if you think it's irrelevant then why did you bring it up? Idiotic.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:06 pm

mohamed69 wrote:He clearly has pace and strength. But his touch is awful, yes. And I'm not sure SD would disagree...he has openly stated that his link up play needs more work. How can you watch him play a match and see things any differently? It really is incomprehensible.

Me saying I have played at a good level was in response to your "shows how little you know about football". So, if you think it's irrelevant then why did you bring it up? Idiotic.

I never said anything about playing - it's you who brought that up.

What is idiotic is that you think because you have played football you are a good judge of Andre Grays first touch.

And as I have already said - nowhere have I said that Gray has a good touch or is the complete footballer in link up play etc. It's you who said he is not good enough and has the worst touch in our team.....

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:13 pm

He was also giving the West Ham left back fits.

Diesel · Post by **Diesel** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:15 pm

Massive over censorship regards harmless fun. Again!

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:16 pm

No pistols at dawn then ?

Darn it !

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:17 pm

TVC15 wrote:I never said anything about playing - it's you who brought that up.

What is idiotic is that you think because you have played football you are a good judge of Andre Grays first touch.

And as I have already said - nowhere have I said that Gray has a good touch or is the complete footballer in link up play etc. It's you who said he is not good enough and has the worst touch in our team.....

He does have the worst touch on our team. Do you have eyes? You should cancel your season ticket and subscription to clarets player if that's what you are seeing, because you aren't getting the full benefit of reality.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:24 pm

mohamed69 wrote:He does have the worst touch on our team. Do you have eyes? You should cancel your season ticket and subscription to clarets player if that's what you are seeing, because you aren't getting the full benefit of reality.

Just because you keep repeating it doesn't mean it's fact. You do realise that don't you ?

What point are you going to make next ?

That I must be Stevie Wonder if i don't agree with you ?

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:26 pm

TVC15 wrote:Just because you keep repeating it doesn't mean it's fact. You do realise that don't you ?

What point are you going to make next ?

That I must be Stevie Wonder if i don't agree with you ?

I think even Stevie Wonder would agree with me. Maybe Helen Keller?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:31 pm

mohamed69 wrote:I think even Stevie Wonder would agree with me. Maybe Helen Keller?

I tend to agree with you on this one as all 3 of you probably have a similar knowledge of the game !

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:33 pm

Come on you guys, don't get Uptight.

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:34 pm

TVC15 wrote:I tend to agree with you on this one as all 3 of you probably have a similar knowledge of the game !

There's no point continuing to speak with someone who claims to watch all of our games but also believes Gray has the best touch of all of our strikers. Something must be wrong. Seek help please. Merry Christmas

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:42 pm

mohamed69 wrote:There's no point continuing to speak with someone who claims to watch all of our games but also believes Gray has the best touch of all of our strikers. Something must be wrong. Seek help please. Merry Christmas

When you go back to school after Santa has been see if you can get them to get your reading age into double figures eh

I never said he had a better touch than any of our strikers

You do realise you are coming across as slightly mental don't you ?

Ooogeorgeorgeoghani · Post by **Ooogeorgeorgeoghani** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:51 pm

mohamed69 wrote:Finally people are starting to see the light. He's a poor footballer...The last person you want in a 2 vs 1 break situation. He will always do the wrong thing.

I thought the same last year, however although he hasnt set the prem on fire i have seen marked improvements, holding up the ball feeding others in, first touch much better, just needs to watch the line a bit more

Ooogeorgeorgeoghani · Post by **Ooogeorgeorgeoghani** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:58 pm

mohamed69 wrote:Words failed me also. I have played to a decent standard for most of my life, and, like most on here, watched countless hours. Obviously most of the time a striker will be under much more pressure and receive worse service...but come on. We are all able to watch a game and judge what is and isn't a good touch, even taking into account the ball and the pressure the player is under. I find it incomprehensible that you think his touch is better than that of Barnes. Just incomprehensible.

I too have played at a good standard, played at Swindon for many years(till they ran the m65 through it!) so i am qualified to report the barnes has an outstanding first touch and control , better than most in our squad

Fireguard · Post by **Fireguard** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:17 am

Why don't you two agree to differ and move on. You're taking the whole thread up with girlie talk. It's Christmas, cheer up.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:22 am

Would love to see mohamed69's football cv seen as he has played at a decent standard all his lfe.............

Ric_C · Post by **Ric_C** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:31 am

Troy Deeney was awful at the turf. Callum Wilson was anonymous

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:04 am

Ooogeorgeorgeoghani wrote:I too have played at a good standard, played at Swindon for many years(till they ran the m65 through it!) so i am qualified to report the barnes has an outstanding first touch and control , better than most in our squad

Bloody hell, I must have missed when the M65 ran through Swindon, I thought that the M4 was the nearest motorway.

what_no_pies · Post by **what_no_pies** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:58 am

ShabbaRanks wrote:We may well have created fewer than average, but we still created far more than what we are doing now, so the point stands that his offsides are taking up a larger percentages of the few chances we create, meaning its even more important that he cuts it out. My point stands.

Speaking of nonsense, I'm not sorry to wonder what on earth you're babbling about with the defensive/conceding part of the game, and what that has got to do with Andre being offside a lot.

I'm 'babbling' about our defensive part of the game in direct response to you claiming up the number of chances teams create against us in the Premier league is comparable with the number of chances we created last season. I replied suggesting that claim is hugely inaccurate. Do try to keep up.

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:03 am

Hopefully he plays today so we can see that beautiful first touch

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:04 am

Hopefully he plays and has a great game then you can refrain from using names of people who have an affliction in a derogatory manner.

Hopefully you want the players to play to give the team you are supposed to support the best chance of winning instead of so you can prove your point.

Gray's first touch isn't great at all but he is in the team based on the other attributes that he offers.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:06 am

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:Bloody hell, I must have missed when the M65 ran through Swindon, I thought that the M4 was the nearest motorway.

It is, but someone still needs to run something through Swindon, no one would miss the place.

mohamed69 · Post by **mohamed69** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:06 am

Blackrod wrote:Hopefully he plays and has a great game then you can refrain from using names of people who have an affliction in a derogatory manner.

Hopefully you want the players to play to give the team you are supposed to support the best chance of winning instead of so you can prove your point.

Gray's first touch isn't great at all but he is in the team based on the other attributes that he offers.

Haha an 'affliction'

I am being sarcastic. I hope he doesn't play so we have the best chance of winning

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:16 am

Too many roundabouts to be able to run through Swindon, at least going straight through.
Isn't it the town with the highest number of roundabouts per square metre?