Time for public sector to stop whinging.

corporal jones · Post by **corporal jones** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:13 am

Much has been made today of the nurse haranguing Theresa May over the 1% public sector pay cap. The smallest amount of research will tell you that the private sector pay increases last year were only 2%,and their jobs are far less secure.
The most telling fact the research will tell you is that the private sector employee will receive FIVE times the pension that their private sector counterpart will look forward to! And that pension is guaranteed by the state and not at the mercy of stock market fluctuations. To match the pension of let's say a nurse, because everyone quotes the nurses in their pro publis sector arguments, the equivalent private sector person of similar training and dedication would have to save 43% of their salary over their entire working life.
Just thought I would add some perspective!

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:26 am

I've worked in the public sector for 37 years and currently work for the NHS.

I'm not complaining and people whingeing really get on my tits.

And the Tories do not want to privatise the NHS.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:30 am

Thanks for that. I'm just off to the local food bank to tell the whinging nurses in there not to worry, because in 30 years they'll have a decent pension.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:33 am

You need to wake up corporal, shake that hangover off and give your post an edit 'cos at the moment it's not making sense..

Job security used to be greater in the public sector than the private sector - this is no longer the case.

20,000 police jobs anyone?

Also..there has been a lot of talk of 'cuts' in the last 7 years - what do you think it is that has been cut?

I think I am right in saying that private sector pay is again rising faster than public sector pay..

Sorry corporal..not too keen on that post.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:34 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:40 am

hampsteadclaret wrote:You need to wake up corporal, shake that hangover off and give your post an edit 'cos at the moment it's not making sense..

Job security used to be greater in the public sector than the private sector - this is no longer the case.

20,000 police jobs anyone?

Also..there has been a lot of talk of 'cuts' in the last 7 years - what do you think it is that has been cut?

I think I am right in saying that private sector pay is again rising faster than public sector pay..

Sorry corporal..not too keen on that post.

Hear hear

1914tyrone · Post by **1914tyrone** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:41 am

43%!! Not sure how you come to that figure unless your living past 100! Lol average life expectantcy is still below 80.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:43 am

Private sector pay is not rising where I am...

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:45 am

I'm not too keen on that post either Mr Jones, whatever you do, don't tell them your name !

What you have to remember is that the nurses are not starting off from the same base when %
increases are and have been implemented over the years, and they just fall further and further behind.

No, I don't have an axe to grind other than having experienced the dedication, commitment
and care that nurses have towards their vocation (it's not a job in my eyes)

Please give it some more thought.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:48 am

Sidney1st wrote:Private sector pay is not rising where I am...

You're getting screwed by your employer then. Join a union.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:49 am

HatfieldClaret wrote:I've worked in the public sector for 37 years and currently work for the NHS.

I'm not complaining and people whingeing really get on my tits.

And the Tories do not want to privatise the NHS.

Why they selling buildings to American conglomerates then ?

1914tyrone · Post by **1914tyrone** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:50 am

I do work in the public sector though not nursing. We have had a 40% reduction in staffing in the last 7 years. Job security far from guaranteed

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:53 am

corporal jones wrote:Much has been made today of the nurse haranguing Theresa May over the 1% public sector pay cap. The smallest amount of research will tell you that the private sector pay increases last year were only 2%,and their jobs are far less secure.
The most telling fact the research will tell you is that the private sector employee will receive FIVE times the pension that their private sector counterpart will look forward to! And that pension is guaranteed by the state and not at the mercy of stock market fluctuations. To match the pension of let's say a nurse, because everyone quotes the nurses in their pro publis sector arguments, the equivalent private sector person of similar training and dedication would have to save 43% of their salary over their entire working life.
Just thought I would add some perspective!

I see you based that pension analysis on the 2010 research that the Govt used to cap a load of stuff and was widely reported in the Telegraph and Mail. No-one is arguing that public sector pensions are more generous but FIVE times is completely rubbish. That Telegraph article even says the pension would be 2/3 the nurse's final salary. It's based on examining the top 2% of public sector pensions (around 65% of which are doctors) and those are often supplemented. No public sector pension pays that directly from public funds. Not even mine and mines' pretty generous. Do a bit more research first.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:56 am

HatfieldClaret wrote:I've worked in the public sector for 37 years and currently work for the NHS.

I'm not complaining and people whingeing really get on my tits.

And the Tories do not want to privatise the NHS.

My trust have had to sell off more and more elective surgery to the private sector because of the cuts.

The outpatient pharmacy is now private.

They don't want to wholly privatise the NHS because they cannot make money out of it in its current form. But I do believe they will privatise any areas, like pharmacies, where they can make a profit

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:56 am

If I get round to it Sidney I will try and find evidence.

I didn't say everyone in the private sector had had a pay rise..

it will be an average.

I just checked this...
Current UK Inflation Rate =

April 2017
2.7%

All workers should at least get this [or this year's average] or you have effectively had a PAY CUT.

- not sure why people should be asked to accept a pay cut if the economy is as strong as the Tories keep telling me it is..?

brexit · Post by **brexit** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:58 am

it is about time the communist NHS was privatised and then medical staff would receive the remuneration they deserve. I know nurses that commute from Liverpool to London every week, stay in a premier inn and work for a private health company. They were trained by the NHS but they earn three times their wages in the private practice. This is how the market should work, skills in demand command higher wages, not the monolithic pay practices of the NHS.
The whole edifice is creaking, universal access to healthcare is a recipe for bankruptcy. Healthcare providers need to be able to refuse to treat the drunks and the obese patients need to have the choice of which healthcare provider they use. Health insurance makes far more sense than NI contributions. You or your employer pay for the level of cover you need. If you want to go and get drunk and break your leg you pay for treatment
The NHS are paid regardless of the quality or outcome of the treatment. We are in postcode lottery because the access is universal.
The NHS like the monarchy and empire is an anachronistic ideal whose relevance faded 30 years ago.
Stop pouring in money and privatise it.
Let the trolling commence

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:06 am

i think you started it already

SparkyClaret · Post by **SparkyClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:09 am

I've never understood the "pay as you go" argument for a health insurance policy. Surely the issue there is you don't know what ailments you are likely to get? If you only chose to cover for accidental damage (trips and falls etc) because you work for minimum wage and that's what you can reasonably afford, what happens if you get a serious illness?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:12 am

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:20 am

corporal jones wrote:Much has been made today of the nurse haranguing Theresa May over the 1% public sector pay cap. The smallest amount of research will tell you that the private sector pay increases last year were only 2%,and their jobs are far less secure.
The most telling fact the research will tell you is that the private sector employee will receive FIVE times the pension that their private sector counterpart will look forward to! And that pension is guaranteed by the state and not at the mercy of stock market fluctuations. To match the pension of let's say a nurse, because everyone quotes the nurses in their pro publis sector arguments, the equivalent private sector person of similar training and dedication would have to save 43% of their salary over their entire working life.
Just thought I would add some perspective!

They take so much for granted that they believe they are hard done by in general.
I've always said the public sector have 2 people minimum doing a job that a private sector employee would have to do on his todd.
As against the self employed they don't realise how little personal responsibility they have to take. They want to try dipping into their own money to subsidise work then waiting 4 months for payments on jobs often from public sector contracts.
Many work hard and well and earn every penny they are paid and in a perfect world deserve more, but overall compared to the private sector and self employed they have more job security, better conditions and pension wise they are on a different planet.
TM is touching on a point that it's as much the previous and ongoing molly cuddling of certain generations and sections of society that the younger generation are paying for.
There's a lot more to it than that, banking fraud and housing inflation used as a cash cow for examples, but the public sector have only started suffering since the crash.. imo

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:21 am

hampsteadclaret wrote:If I get round to it Sidney I will try and find evidence.

I didn't say everyone in the private sector had had a pay rise.. it will be an average.

I just checked this...
Current UK Inflation Rate =

April 2017
2.7%

All workers should at least get this [or this year's average] or you have effectively had a PAY CUT.

- not sure why people should be asked to accept a pay cut if the economy is as strong as the Tories keep telling me it is..?

I'm in the pubic sector, if my wage kept up with inflation I'd be over £7k better off than I am now.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:22 am

corporal jones wrote:Much has been made today of the nurse haranguing Theresa May over the 1% public sector pay cap. The smallest amount of research will tell you that the private sector pay increases last year were only 2%,and their jobs are far less secure.
The most telling fact the research will tell you is that the private sector employee will receive FIVE times the pension that their private sector counterpart will look forward to! And that pension is guaranteed by the state and not at the mercy of stock market fluctuations. To match the pension of let's say a nurse, because everyone quotes the nurses in their pro publis sector arguments, the equivalent private sector person of similar training and dedication would have to save 43% of their salary over their entire working life.
Just thought I would add some perspective!

They take so much for granted that they believe they are hard done by in general.
I've always said the public sector have 2 people minimum doing a job that a private sector employee would have to do on his todd.
As against the self employed they don't realise how little personal responsibility they have to take. They want to try dipping into their own money to subsidise work then waiting 4 months for payments on jobs often from public sector contracts.
Many work hard and well and earn every penny they are paid and in a perfect world deserve more, but overall compared to the private sector and self employed they have more job security, better conditions and pension wise they are on a different planet.
TM is touching on a point that it's as much the previous and ongoing molly cuddling of certain generations and sections of society that the younger generation are paying for, as the rich taking it all.
There's a lot more to it than that, banking fraud and housing inflation used as a cash cow for examples, but the public sector have only started suffering since the crash.. imo

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:24 am

The NHS is a wonderful thing, but sadly is abused in some cases.
I question whether things such as treatment for addictions to drugs, alcohol and food should be burdened onto the NHS.
Breast enhancement for women depressed because they have small tits and such like. Caring for the elderly in hospital who are only still in there because they have no social care in place.
I don't think the organisation was set up to deal with these sorts of things. I don't have figures to quote, but I'm sure most of us have a reasonable idea that such treatment and care is quite a considerable cost.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:25 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:26 am

BleedingClaret wrote: I've always said the public sector have 2 people minimum doing a job that a private sector employee would have to do on his todd.

You really think that there are twice as many nurses that are actually required, twice as many police officers? Twice as many paramedics?
You have clearly never worked in those organisations or you would realise that you are totally wrong.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:28 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:I'm in the pubic sector, if my wage kept up with inflation I'd be over £7k better off than I am now.

There'd be an argument that the public sector in some cases were over staffed and over paid.
Reality has entered that sector, too

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:32 am

brexit wrote:it is about time the communist NHS was privatised and then medical staff would receive the remuneration they deserve. I know nurses that commute from Liverpool to London every week, stay in a premier inn and work for a private health company. They were trained by the NHS but they earn three times their wages in the private practice. This is how the market should work, skills in demand command higher wages, not the monolithic pay practices of the NHS.
The whole edifice is creaking, universal access to healthcare is a recipe for bankruptcy. Healthcare providers need to be able to refuse to treat the drunks and the obese patients need to have the choice of which healthcare provider they use. Health insurance makes far more sense than NI contributions. You or your employer pay for the level of cover you need. If you want to go and get drunk and break your leg you pay for treatment
The NHS are paid regardless of the quality or outcome of the treatment. We are in postcode lottery because the access is universal.
The NHS like the monarchy and empire is an anachronistic ideal whose relevance faded 30 years ago.
Stop pouring in money and privatise it.
Let the trolling commence

I doubt any private company would take over the NHS and keep the same quality will be able to make a profit.

So they will part privatise it, meaning I will still be getting underpaid. If it was totally private I would get paid more. I have done work for Nuffield and spire and have earned double what I do in the NHS. I

I am not sticking up for all public sector jobs. I have seen how little work some people do. But nurses work very hard and are in high demand. Usually high demand means high wages. If you are an electrician and there are not enough electricians around you put your prices up. Not in nursing. The demand is high but the wages don't match that

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:34 am

Those who belittle public sector workers are so far out of touch with reality these days. I could provide so much evidence to demonstrate this. But you know what - I can't be arsed. Because it won't change those with such narrow understanding.

P.s. I accept public sector pensions are good and there is no shame in that.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:37 am

There's a chronic lack of nurses in the UK - why else do you think so many Trust recruit from overseas.

Add to that the government scrapping the bursary for student nurses and it's only going to get worse

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:38 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:You really think that there are twice as many nurses that are actually required, twice as many police officers? Twice as many paramedics?
You have clearly never worked in those organisations or you would realise that you are totally wrong.

I think it's more about white collar jobs, than the people who do the manual work.
Not wanting to sound like a complete arsehole but I have spent a bit of time in hospital with my kids over the last year and I see groups of nurses hanging round chatting about their hols, nights out and home improvements. Now if there was 4 workmen in their house all on day work rate hanging round chatting about footy etc the said nurses would kick off.
It the Utopia that Corbyn wants to return too, and I'd love it, I'd have no issue if we were all job sharing paid loads and enjoying our working days, but it can't work at the moment, and we have to cut our cloth accordingly and that includes those that have been on a pedestal.
This has been a slow painful descent for public sector workers it was an instant disaster for many who lost businesses that they had toiled at for years and then lost houses etc.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:40 am

With such good pay, conditions and pensions, I wonder why it is that 96% of NHS hospitals have a chronic shortage of nurses, and why we are heading for a staffing crisis in schools because of recruitment and retention issues?
Police, a different picture, but then again 20,000 jobs have been cut.
So the time to "stop whinging" has already passed for many. they've either left or refuse to sign up.

brexit · Post by **brexit** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:42 am

If it be your will wrote:I can't troll that, because it is a logical philosophy, and one that the USA broadly follows. There are a couple of things to consider here though:

1. The word 'need' here would in reality be changed to 'afford'. Many could not afford any insurance at all.
2. Presumably this would extend to all risky activity, including horse riding, rock climbing, motorcycling and eating too many cakes. Like travel insurance, you could opt out of all risky activities for a cheaper premium, but you'd have a pretty boring existence if you did.

Agreed on both points
On point 1 my "public sector" employer pays medical insurance at the level they require so that i can be back at work and as productive as possible
On point 2 I rock climb and I have insurance through the BMC for medical treatment if I have any accidents

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:42 am

brexit..

1] can you clearly explain 'communist NHS' - did you mean to write 'socialist' NHS ? [were you intentionally 'smearing' like so many others in the last fortnight in an attempt to confuse people?]

2] the big difference between a state run NHS and a privatised health service is this...the present NHS budget is about £122 billion for 2015.

- to all intents and purposes this money is all spent IN the state NHS

[Imagine] if it was all privatised, the people that would be tasked with running it would be doing so for profit..they would want their cut.

How many ££££ billions would they want to take from the budget, [as above...£122 billion] for running this health service operation..?

£25 billion?
£30 billion?
£35 billion?

They would say they can do that without diminishing the quality, or taking away services that the NHS presently provides...
I don't believe that rubbish for a second.

- they would burble on as usual about 'efficiency savings'.

Make no mistake..the present NHS budget is spent in the NHS.

- a large chunk of that budget, if privatised, would end up in someone else's pocket.

** the NHS needs a makeover..it needs tidying up..I am sure it could save a little on avoiding waste.

It doesn't need putting in the private sector.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:43 am

Fantastic to hear that the nurses and other public sector workers can look forward to a decent meal on the table and better quality of life and standard of living.

ONCE THEY' HAVE REACHED RETIREMENT AGE.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:44 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:You really think that there are twice as many nurses that are actually required, twice as many police officers? Twice as many paramedics?
You have clearly never worked in those organisations or you would realise that you are totally wrong.

Perhaps he's talking about the Tory voting middle management structure that keeps fleecing the coffers for their great new strategies that are crippling the NHS instead of sorting it out. The NHS is wonderful, and the front line staff are doing their best with their hands tied.

Before anyone asks, yes I have worked in the NHS and experienced the middle management wastes for myself - I used to be one of them.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:47 am

One issue I do not agree with is the job protection people get when they are terrible at their jobs

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:48 am

BleedingClaret wrote:I've always said the public sector have 2 people minimum doing a job that a private sector employee would have to do on his todd.

You might have always said it but that doesn't make it true. I've worked in both sectors and like any walk of life there are lazy folk in both, as there are hard workers in both.

BleedingClaret wrote:As against the self employed they don't realise how little personal responsibility they have to take. They want to try dipping into their own money to subsidise work then waiting 4 months for payments on jobs often from public sector contracts.

That's total ********. It's a key financial ruling on public sector that contracts are paid on time to private sector companies. Unlike private companies who often wait as long as they can - hence why it's standard practice for companies to offer discounts for prompt payment (x+% for payment in 30 days, x% for payment in 60)

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:48 am

wilks_bfc wrote:There's a chronic lack of nurses in the UK - why else do you think so many Trust recruit from overseas.

Add to that the government scrapping the bursary for student nurses and it's only going to get worse

This has to be sorted by getting those bred on benefits off their fat arses into training and into work.
It has to start straight away, whilst we are flooding the country with people to do these jobs we bring in their dependants and we put more pressure on schools and hospitals and public services and pay benefits to them and their dependants too.
It is a fact, not my opinion, I've seen it, the NHS employ a doctor and then have to employ staff to cover his consultations because he's doing private work, a portion of which is referrals from the NHS cos the doctor is off doing private work.
Time to get real, it's a complete bullshit argument that we have needed the hundreds of thousands that have been coming every year.
We may need them now, because of the mis management of the country but it has to change now.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:50 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:I'm in the pubic sector...

Well, go and wash your hands and come back to the debate when you're ready...

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:52 am

20...I''ve always said the public sector have 2 people minimum doing a job that a private sector employee would have to do on his todd.'

What utter tosh.

I spent a week in hospital two years ago.

I received excellent treatment even though they all had too much to do..especially the nurses...chasing their tale all day...same for the next shift, and the next.

- but the ancillary staff [porters, receptionists] and the doctors also had more to do, than there was time available.

I read some right stuff on here these days.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:57 am

1914tyrone wrote:43%!! Not sure how you come to that figure unless your living past 100! Lol average life expectantcy is still below 80.

100! is indeed very old.

USC · Post by **USC** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:59 am

corporal jones wrote:Theresa May over the 1% public sector pay cap. The smallest amount of research will tell you that the private sector pay increases last year were only 2%

So you state that the public sector is "whinging" and justify your comment by stating that the private sector ONLY receive TWICE the pay rise they do, So, assuming your figures are correct, that would mean after 10 years, public sector pay has risen by 10% and private by 22%. And your argument is there is not much difference between these figures - which is like saying a 12% decrease in your pay is no big deal.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:01 pm

brexit wrote:it is about time the communist NHS was privatised ...

Credibility lost. Please learn what communism means.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:03 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:You need to wake up corporal, shake that hangover off and give your post an edit 'cos at the moment it's not making sense..

Job security used to be greater in the public sector than the private sector - this is no longer the case.

20,000 police jobs anyone?

Also..there has been a lot of talk of 'cuts' in the last 7 years - what do you think it is that has been cut?

I think I am right in saying that private sector pay is again rising faster than public sector pay..

Sorry corporal..not too keen on that post.

Hi Hampstead,

I guess someone will work out one day why certain things are measured at their peak while others are measured at their trough.

And, someone might work out why many comparisons are made on wages/salaries alone and don't include the other terms and conditions.

There is a big gap between public sector and private sector pensions, between defined benefit schemes and defined contribution schemes. I know that a number of public sector schemes have now moved to career average rather than final salary - these are still fantastically generous compared to the "standard" defined contribution scheme. We should also remember that before NEST (I know this is the default private sector pension scheme and other choices are available) there are many in the private sector with no pension scheme.

So, what is the cost of a final salary pension scheme (whether public sector or private sector)? When I had some involvement in this area (< 10 years ago) 35% was a pretty decent average cost to the employer for all their final salary employees. Where retirement age has remained unchanged and life expectancy has extended over the past 10 years the Corporal's figure of 43% is not unreasonable.

As for public sector job cuts - aren't the "payoff" terms and early retirement terms still on the generous side? I know we have an "early retired" teacher on here that has stated he is happy with his early pension (maybe not his exact words, before someone pulls me up on this, but I think that was his message).

I've had/got family members in the public sector. I'm not knocking where anyone works. Maybe we are all "in it together."

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:05 pm

I asked him to explain his ridiculous 'communist' comment earlier...he hasn't come back to do that yet.

Just more sleaze and smearing..some of them have given up debating this one.

A shocking election campaign to be honest.

brexit · Post by **brexit** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:08 pm

IT, Hampstead
Communism
"Economic and social system in which all (or nearly all) property and resources are collectively owned by a classless society and not by individual citizens."
Is that not the intention and the reality of the NHS?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:10 pm

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:10 pm

Hello PW - you should have stayed on holiday - you don't wanna get involved in this stuff..

'I've had/got family members in the public sector. I'm not knocking where anyone works. Maybe we are all "in it together."

I certainly agree with that sentiment.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:12 pm

I suppose the police and fire service are communist as well

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:15 pm

Fantastic that BleedingClaret has such political insight.

When every member of the current Cabinet and PM were challenged on which sectors of industry and the Private Sector needed less numbers of migrant workers, and where substantial cuts in immigration could be made, not a single one of them had an answer.

Those who are voting for this government hoping for immigration to be cut to the tens of thousands really are living in cloud cuckoo land. When immigration falls so does productivity and there is also an adverse effect on GDP.