There are numerous very important political and social issues to think about when voting on thursday BUT I still feel that the most important issue for this particular general election is for each of us to decide which political party will negotiate the best brexit 'deal'.

Whether you agree with brexit or not we are where we are and we need a strong negotiating team with clear and unambiguous objectives.

You must decide whether to vote Conservative or Labour. Use your instinct and your life experience and vote accordingly.

And bear in mind that if Corbyn is Prime Minister, it will be with Nicola Sturgeon's support. What sort of Brexit does she want?

dsr wrote:And bear in mind that if Corbyn is Prime Minister, it will be with Nicola Sturgeon's support. What sort of Brexit does she want?

She wants Scotland to remain in the Single Market, she's already told May this, but TM apparently won't even consider it.
(Not that I necessarily think it is practical, but TM only has to say that it can be looked into, and it would make the Scottish problem go away for a while, indeed it might even win TM some more seats The fact that the EU would probably be unable to even consider this would not be TM's fault).

Any governments number 1 priority, concern call it what you want, is to ensure the safety and protection of its people.

The recent islamic terrorist atrocities show that this government has failed.

The previous Labour government also failed to stop islamic terrorist atrocities. (7/7)

In my view neither party can be trusted with the number one priority.

dsr wrote:And bear in mind that if Corbyn is Prime Minister, it will be with Nicola Sturgeon's support. What sort of Brexit does she want?

Soft Brexit. Like most people at this point.

there isn't going to be a good brexit deal, its purely a damage limitation exercise.

as for getting the 'best' brexit deal, its abundantly clear that the last party you'd want negotiating that are the tories.

its a hiding to nothing for whoever ends up taking it on but their whole approach is completely wrong.

The EU negotiating team will eat May & Co alive.

I think that the last thing anything is with Brexit, is abundantly clear.

UpTheBeehole wrote:The EU negotiating team will eat May & Co alive.

They'd easily eat Corbyn and co aswell for dessert.

quoonbeatz wrote:there isn't going to be a good brexit deal, its purely a damage limitation exercise.

as for getting the 'best' brexit deal, its abundantly clear that the last party you'd want negotiating that are the tories.

its a hiding to nothing for whoever ends up taking it on but their whole approach is completely wrong.

I think it's clear that the last party you would want negotiating is the Tories. If I have led you to believe that I think Corbyn/Sturgeon would do better than May, then I haven't been making myself clear.

UpTheBeehole wrote:The EU negotiating team will eat May & Co alive.

Sidney1st wrote:They'd easily eat Corbyn and co aswell for dessert.

its not really about the leaders, to be fair. its more about davies than may and starmer than corbyn.

which is a good thing on both counts.

i'd certainly back starmer and co than davies and co to get a better result for the country as whole.

Sidney1st wrote:They'd easily eat Corbyn and co aswell for dessert.

I happen to think conversation over the issues, rather than the childish 'I want this, or else' approach is by far the best way we'll get a good deal. Who would you be more inclined to deal with, a reasonable person with whom you could iron out finer details, or Veruca Salt?

Of course the best deal was to stay in the EU, but that's been taken out of our hands now.

I think what most Brexiteers fail to understand is that is there is no such thing as a better deal with the EU than we currently have, because the EU would seize to exist if it gave a preferential deal to non-members.
What this means is that it is our relationship with the rest of the world, and more importantly what we do in our own country that will determine our future. There's been nothing forward thinking or looking at all in TM's campaign.
What is her plan after she agrees that "No deal is better than a bad deal", and when will she tell us? Obviously not before the General Election.

UpTheBeehole wrote:I happen to think conversation over the issues, rather than the childish 'I want this, or else' approach is by far the best way we'll get a good deal. Who would you be more inclined to deal with, a reasonable person with whom you could iron out finer details, or Veruca Salt?

Of course the best deal was to stay in the EU, but that's been taken out of our hands now.

No one really knows if the best deal was to stay in because we haven't negotiated an exit yet.

We may actually get a decent deal, one that surprises people, but clearly people aren't really interested in seeing how it pans out first.

Nil Desperandum answered you in advance Sidney1st

Noticed that.

I suppose people want all of the ideas/plans/possible deal out in the public for them to browse it to make sure it meets the publics approval.

It's not like we'd need to worry about showing our hand to the EU team......

dsr wrote:And bear in mind that if Corbyn is Prime Minister, it will be with Nicola Sturgeon's support. What sort of Brexit does she want?

Oh God, don't say that, the very thought of her..........

Sidney1st wrote:No one really knows if the best deal was to stay in because we haven't negotiated an exit yet.

We may actually get a decent deal, one that surprises people, but clearly people aren't really interested in seeing how it pans out first.

i guess it depends on what people regard as a decent deal.

we are generally going to be worse off as a country - not just economically, although that is the most important issue - because of brexit. as i said, its damage limitation now and its going to be difficult enough to limit the damage, especially going down the tory route.

Imploding Turtle wrote:Soft Brexit. Like most people at this point.

Sweeping, generalising, statements then.....
OK
Most people who voted leave, just want to leave and don't get why we are negotiating.

quoonbeatz wrote:i guess it depends on what people regard as a decent deal.

we are generally going to be worse off as a country - not just economically, although that is the most important issue - because of brexit. as i said, its damage limitation now and its going to be difficult enough to limit the damage, especially going down the tory route.

Are we though?

When we leave the EU we will be able to arrange our own trade deals with countries around the world, something we couldn't do whilst in the EU.

What makes Labour more preferable?
I don't really see any explanations why they would be better at negotiating the deal over the Tories.

BleedingClaret wrote: Most people who voted leave, just want to leave and don't get why we are negotiating.

Well they would be quite correctly labelled as "thick" or "uneducated". I'm absolutely sure the overwhelming majority of "leavers" are just as bright and educated as those who voted "remain".
But anyone who thinks we can just extricate ourselves from all our arrangements, agreements and treaties, (carefully negotiated over 40 years), is just not in the real world.

Trade deals with who?

The US are now concentrating on an isolationist strategy. They don't want to be buying things from abroad.

China makes everything itself.

The EU is our largest market, and we're cutting off our nose to spite our face on that one.

Well for me the most important issue when deciding on who to vote for on Thursday is not Brexit.

With all my health issues and my age it has to be the NHS and for me there can only be one party to vote for and it certainly won't be the current lot

UpTheBeehole wrote:Trade deals with who?

The US are now concentrating on an isolationist strategy. They don't want to be buying things from abroad.

China makes everything itself.

The EU is our largest market, and we're cutting off our nose to spite our face on that one.

There's a whole wide world out there that would buy from us and we'd buy from them.....

As part of the EU we had to go with any deal set out by the EU.

Anyone know why Labour be better negotiating the deal than the Tories?

UpTheBeehole wrote:Trade deals with who?

The US are now concentrating on an isolationist strategy. They don't want to be buying things from abroad.

China makes everything itself.

The EU is our largest market, and we're cutting off our nose to spite our face on that one.

The EU is also our largest competitor when it comes to goods sold in the UK. I don't want to get into protectionism at all, because I'd much prefer worldwide free markets, but if tariffs and barriers are to be introduced they will have advantages for British manufacturing as well as disadvantages.

nil_desperandum wrote:Well they would be quite correctly labelled as "thick" or "uneducated". I'm absolutely sure the overwhelming majority of "leavers" are just as bright and educated as those who voted "remain".
But anyone who thinks we can just extricate ourselves from all our arrangements, agreements and treaties, (carefully negotiated over 40 years), is just not in the real world.

I don't think that, it was just a sweeping statement in response to "Most people want a soft Brexit"
Like the antidote, to bring us back to parity of thinking.
Alkaline mix with Acid to get PH Neutral

Go on, tell me the countries we'd sell to, and what we'd sell to them specifically.

What would we sell to the isolationist USA?

to China, which makes everything else?

to India, which is embarking on its own journey to make everything itself?

to Australia? (Cadburys perhaps?)

What would we sell to South America?

What would we sell to Africa?

Sidney1st wrote:Are we though?

When we leave the EU we will be able to arrange our own trade deals with countries around the world, something we couldn't do whilst in the EU.
.

I've already covered this Sid.
What we negotiate with the EU has nothing to do with what we might subsequently negotiate with the rest of the world. You're correct about the wider world, but obviously this doesn't mean that some kind of deal with the EU wouldn't be helpful.

Don't forget we will always possess the trump card when negotiating.

They sell us £270 billion worth of goods/services annually.

We sell them £230 billion worth of goods/services annually.

If they want to put 10% tariff on our exports to the EU then we do the same to their imports into the uk.

We can't lose really can we.

UpTheBeehole wrote:Go on, tell me the countries we'd sell to, and what we'd sell to them specifically.

We already export more to countries outside the EU than to countries inside; most of it without any sort of trade agreement. Now, we're free to carry on exporting to those countries as we do now, but we can also make trade agreements to mutually improve the terms.

Why doesn't Germany come out of the EU in order to trade, if the grass is so greener on the other side?

Their economy and manufacturing sector are both stronger than ours. Surely they'd have a field day

dsr wrote:We already export more to countries outside the EU than to countries inside; most of it without any sort of trade agreement. Now, we're free to carry on exporting to those countries as we do now, but we can also make trade agreements to mutually improve the terms.

So what was the point in coming out of the EU again?

Mala591 wrote:Don't forget we will always possess the trump card when negotiating.

They sell us £270 billion worth of goods/services annually.

We sell them £230 billion worth of goods/services annually.

If they want to put 10% tariff on our exports to the EU then we do the same to their imports into the uk.

We can't lose really can we.

If you'd read previous threads on here, or done even a little bit of research, you'd realise that it's not as simple as that.
Their 270 billion pounds worth of goods come from 27 different countries collectively. (So that's 270 billion divided by 27).
Whilst it wouldn't be an equal "hit" of 10 billion each, none of the individual countries would be hit anywhere near as much as us. (230 billion). Indeed some don't sell to us at all,(or hardly).
Don't forget all 27 have to agree.
In any case, the Germans are so committed to peace in Europe and the EU ideal that they will almost certainly be prepared to take a short term hit in order to protect the union. Do you actually think that the EU can offer us a better deal than the one its own members continue to pay for?

UpTheBeehole wrote:So what was the point in coming out of the EU again?

The main point was the I of UKIP - independence.

But the other point is what you quoted but ignored - that now, we can make trade agreements with other countries. Within the EU, we couldn't; we were forced into deals that the EU agreed or (more commonly) failed to agree.

UpTheBeehole wrote:So what was the point in coming out of the EU again?

Control of our own borders and therefore immigration and Laws relating to that and self rule in general.

dsr wrote:The main point was the I of UKIP - independence.

But the other point is what you quoted but ignored - that now, we can make trade agreements with other countries. Within the EU, we couldn't; we were forced into deals that the EU agreed or (more commonly) failed to agree.

and that!

Which countries are going to pay in our share that we currently pay into the EU ?

Good luck with about 20 of those putting a penny more in. I remember last year seeing the comment "stiff upper lip has been replaced by the lower trembling one" it becomes more and more relevant.

BleedingClaret wrote:Control of our own borders and therefore immigration and Laws relating to that and self rule in general.

But we could already control our non-eu borders and the Tories still fell hundreds of thousands from their target. It's been well documented that EU migrants are net contributors to the UK.

BleedingClaret wrote:Sweeping, generalising, statements then.....
OK
Most people who voted leave, just want to leave and don't get why we are negotiating.

I think it's fair to say that the 48% remainers (yes, we matter too) want a soft brexit over a hard brexit. And of the other 52% i'm pretty sure more than 2% want a soft brexit.

UpTheBeehole wrote:But we could already control our non-eu borders and the Tories still fell hundreds of thousands from their target. It's been well documented that EU migrants are net contributors to the UK.

Even Corbyn has admitted that lots of the EU workforce were brought in as cheap labour.
Net contributors, doesn't change the fact that we haven't enough houses, school places or hospital beds.
The failure to control Non EU immigration, doesn't change the fact that we need to gain control of our borders and control that along with EU immigration.
The truth is that if we were totally in line with The EU then Shengen would have allowed a route into this country if any of the other EU countries couldn't control their outer borders, and they can't

RingoMcCartney wrote:Any governments number 1 priority, concern call it what you want, is to ensure the safety and protection of its people.

The recent islamic terrorist atrocities show that this government has failed.

The previous Labour government also failed to stop islamic terrorist atrocities. (7/7)

In my view neither party can be trusted with the number one priority.

I haven't time to read all the manifestos - can someone tell me which party has promised to build a wall?

Cheers

claretdom wrote:Which countries are going to pay in our share that we currently pay into the EU ?
.

It's net about £8.6 billion / year.
Have you actually considered how little that is per head of population per year across the 27 member states. (That's well over half a million citizens).
It was a tiny proportion of our own budget, (way below 1% of GDP) then divide that by the 27 nations.
In addition to that you can then subtract the money costs for wages etc. to UK MEPS and all their staff, and factor in anything that we end up paying into the EU for any projects that we may wish to remain a part of. (Limited access to the Single market being just one possibility).
In any case, why would they necessarily need to claw it back?, there would just be a bit less money in the overall pot, so they would simply have to tighten their belts a little bit.

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think it's fair to say that the 48% remainers (yes, we matter too) want a soft brexit over a hard brexit. And of the other 52% i'm pretty sure more than 2% want a soft brexit.

are some people more equal than others

TheFamilyCat wrote:I haven't time to read all the manifestos - can someone tell me which party has promised to build a wall?

Cheers

The Green party, made 100% by recycled materials

Whatever happens on thursday, the departure from the EU needs to be managed to avoid doing any more damage than is absolutely necessary.

The rhetoric from the Tories suggests that they probably are more keen in no deal than lab, though even I think there are enough sensible ones to stop the flag waving, blue passport trump everthing ones.

Whoever gets in, they have to get it right, or we could be heading for some pretty choppy waters with all that is going on.

A economic shrinkage at this time would increase the effects of all the other stuff that is going on, which makes all this even more silly than it needs to be.

BleedingClaret wrote:are some people more equal than others

What you on about?

66% of Burnley voted for Brexit. They now have to follow that up, on Thursday with the same vote i.e. Tory. We can't have Corbyn and Diane Abbot in charge of this nation. Abbot and Costello would do a better job.

claretdom wrote:The Green party, made 100% by recycled materials

Cool. And who are they going to demand pay for it?

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think it's fair to say that the 48% remainers (yes, we matter too) want a soft brexit over a hard brexit. And of the other 52% i'm pretty sure more than 2% want a soft brexit.

Remainers are the22% now, not48%.

Isn't the Conservative candidate for Burnley under police investigation?

This is after he got back from his holiday, and after a sound drubbing in his attempt to get into an LCC seat in Pendle Rural.

The lad's a failure already, he hasn't got a cat in hell's chance.