We can stay in the EU

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:41 pm

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble said today that if Britain changed its mind on Brexit, the door would be open for it to remain in the EU.

On that, President Macron says: "The door is always open of course. No negotiation of Brexit has been finalised."

He says as things stand, the British people have decided they want to leave, but "there's still the possibility of reopening" the issue if that changes.

And with that, the press conference ends and the two leaders head off to the Stade de France for the football friendly.
BBC

Referendum anyone?

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:44 pm

Nope, already had one.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:44 pm

Only need to be asked once thanks.

They want us to stay in.

It means they wouldn't have to find the billions they'll lose when we go.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:45 pm

Yes, we'll have another referendum, which remain will win and then have another tje brexiteers won't be happy. This pattern will repeat until the earth is finally eaten by a massive space monster.

Squarepusher · Post by **Squarepusher** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:47 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Yes, we'll have another referendum, which remain will win and then have another tje brexiteers won't be happy. This pattern will repeat until the earth is finally eaten by a massive space monster.

Can we vote for the space monster option? Because I think I'd be firmly in favour of it at this point.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:48 pm

85% of people voted for parties whose manifesto had leaving the EU and the single market in, no mandate for remain.

minnieclaret · Post by **minnieclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:52 pm

claretandy wrote:85% of people voted for parties whose manifesto had leaving the EU and the single market in, no mandate for remain.

could you quantify that please? then IT will be along.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:56 pm

The Turtles Head does tend to pop out at the most inconvenient time.

Just before the game starts !

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:58 pm

Jeremy Corbyn seems the most sensible, intelligent and popular politician at the moment so I think we should let him decide whether we stay or not and if we leave let him negotiate the terms.

That will save us another referendum that nobody really wants

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:00 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Jeremy Corbyn seems the most sensible, intelligent and popular politician at the moment so I think we should let him decide whether we stay or not and if we leave let him negotiate the terms.

That will save us another referendum that nobody really wants

Cocaine's a helluva drug!!

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:01 pm

Are space monsters related to monster munch?

'Cos the pickle flavours really good.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:02 pm

Is this the EU showing their hand before negotiations?

Oops.

yorkyclaret · Post by **yorkyclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:02 pm

Tell 'em we will consider it on the proviso that we have 100% control of our own borders.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:03 pm

claretandy wrote:85% of people voted for parties whose manifesto had leaving the EU and the single market in, no mandate for remain.

You really believe that?

I'll bet that if Labour carry on saying we must now have a soft Brexit, they'll get a decent majority at the next election. You just carry on believing the 48% no longer have say. I think you'll be in for a very nasty shock!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:05 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:Are space monsters related to monster munch?

No, but they are related to Space Raiders.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:10 pm

What percentage of voters voted for pro-EU parties in 2015? What percentage voted for pro-EU parties in 2017. If Andy wants to use the elections as if they are pseudo-referenda then so can I.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:11 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Is this the EU showing their hand before negotiations?

Oops.

Lol. What?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:11 pm

Not now, and there is bound to be another election soon anyway. Depending on how that goes will probably determine our EU future.

P

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:15 pm

Spijed wrote:You really believe that?

I'll bet that if Labour carry on saying we must now have a soft Brexit, they'll get a decent majority at the next election. You just carry on believing the 48% no longer have say. I think you'll be in for a very nasty shock!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Page 28 of the Labour manifesto, take a look.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:23 pm

Remoan STILL haven't accepted it, so they will be LOVING this from our European friends. Hell, they will even say we MUST have another referendum on the strength of those statements plus their belief that everyone's changed their mind.

Well, I haven't.

We voted out. We were told it was a once in a generation thing. We've also been told by some euro geek that once out, that's it. Well, that's it then. Let's just get on with it.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:26 pm

To many gutless people not man enough to admit they made a mistake voting leave.

From what I have seen I reckon about 90% of people would prefer to cancel Brexit and stay in the EU

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:27 pm

Shove off.

In actual fact, May is a remainer who is in cahoots with Corbyn as much as the Russians and the Americans together in the space station, along with the media and the government. All sides deliberately screwed the election to weaken the Brexit campaign. Don't forget the gov leafleted everybody and told them to vote to remain.

Burnley 'Leave' voters were suckered in, the fools. Where was the 66% Brexit vote at the election? SHAME ON YOU, BURNLEY VOTERS for being weak when most needed.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:31 pm

From what you have seen? What have you seen? What exactly have you "seen"?

Yeah. You da man. You have it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:33 pm

Take everything Andy says with a massive pinch of salt and always check the information he provides because he's not trustworthy.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:33 pm

Being wrong is nothing to be ashamed of. You will feel better once you admit it and get it off your chest

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:39 pm

claretandy wrote:Page 28 of the Labour manifesto, take a look.

I checked but see no reference to having access to the Single Market or Customs Union.
How about page 24?
"We will scrap the Conservatives’
Brexit White Paper and replace it
with fresh negotiating priorities that
have a strong emphasis on retaining
the benefits of the Single Market
and the Customs Union – which
are essential for maintaining
industries, jobs and businesses in
Britain. Labour will always put jobs
and the economy first. "

FulledgeClaret · Post by **FulledgeClaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:42 pm

What do we think would happen if we now changed our minds and stay in the EU would our membership fee stay the same or be increased, would we be told we have take on the euro, would we have to take more migrants we don't want and can't support or would we just go back to how we were before with no repercussions for daring to want out of the EU club. Before we even contemplate staying there would be quite a few questions that would need answering. I'm still for leaving and won't be changing my mind.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:46 pm

What do you think the election was? It WAS a second referendum but done in a different way and all the voters were fooled by a complicit media. May deliberately messed it up and all the TV audiences were carefully selected with a 'remain' bias. ALL of it, like Jon Snow going on about police numbers when we had terrorist attacks.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:48 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Take everything Andy says with a massive pinch of salt and always check the information he provides because he's not trustworthy.

#soapytitwank

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:49 pm

He he.

I know what we have when we are in the eu. And I know that I don't know for sure whether being out will be better. But I'm brave enough to want to have a look. You want more of the same, more of what you know. That's fine. Nothing wrong with being a little apprehensive about the unknown. I'm a little apprehensive myself, but I'm not going to bottle it now. I'm not going to poo my pants because every single eu country has tried to scare me into not leaving.

History will either prove me right, or it will prove me wrong. If us 52% have it correct, I'll try to be decent about it and not too smug. If I've got it wrong, then I'll hold my hands up to the mistake. The trouble is, we will have nothing running parallel to compare to so it will be difficult to prove either way I think.

We are leaving. Embrace it. It's in everyone's best interest to embrace it. Constantly hanging on to the hope that we might not have to isn't helping. Grow a pair and get on with channelling your efforts into making brexit work.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:51 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:To many gutless people not man enough to admit they made a mistake voting leave.

From what I have seen I reckon about 90% of people would prefer to cancel Brexit and stay in the EU

Not even close. It's maybe 60% but I expect most people would vote to affirm the result of the first referendum though so any second referendum should be framed in such a way as to affirm the result of the first. And it should be made legally binding like IndyRef.

We shouldn't ignore the first result but we also shouldn't ignore that it wasn't a decisive win for Leave and Leave voters should acknowledge that just as much as Remain voters should accept that Leave did win it. Just.

This is a **** up of epic proportions by the Conservatives, first in promising the referendum merely to get elected, then making it a simple majority vote on something as massive and complicated as leaving the EU which means such an indecisive result can happen. Then to run an absolutely terrible campaign on both sides that meant none of us was informed enough to make a decision either way and then they get surprised when we make an uninformed choice, and then they called an election ostensibly because Brexit needs a massive majority instead of a small one (bullshit) and run yet another terrible campaign and now they can't even form a government without adopting terrorist sympathisers in an epic piece of electoral irony after what their press accused Corbyn of.

Who the **** can trust these people enough to vote for them next time?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:52 pm

FulledgeClaret wrote:What do we think would happen if we now changed our minds and stay in the EU would our membership fee stay the same or be increased, would we be told we have take on the euro, would we have to take more migrants we don't want and can't support or would we just go back to how we were before with no repercussions for daring to want out of the EU club. Before we even contemplate staying there would be quite a few questions that would need answering. I'm still for leaving and won't be changing my mind.

Nothing written in stone, but I think that there's a general understanding that if at some point during negotiations we determined that we no longer wanted to leave, we could just continue as we are. Nothing has changed since the referendum, and the other EU leaders would know that we wouldn't negotiate on the Euro.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:52 pm

FulledgeClaret wrote:What do we think would happen if we now changed our minds and stay in the EU would our membership fee stay the same or be increased, would we be told we have take on the euro, would we have to take more migrants we don't want and can't support or would we just go back to how we were before with no repercussions for daring to want out of the EU club. Before we even contemplate staying there would be quite a few questions that would need answering. I'm still for leaving and won't be changing my mind.

The legal opinion seems to be that, as per article 68 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, withdrawal notification can be unilaterally revoked before withdrawal takes effect. We'd be in the same place we were before the referendum, basically.

edit-beaten to it.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:55 pm

Some official stats on why people voted leave in the referendum

46% of leave voters admitted to holding racist views
72% of leave voters were easily led
77% of leave voters were of low intelligence
94% of leave voters didn't understand how to fact check

I cant post it on here but the Venn diagram for the above showed 32% of leave voters were easily led racist idiots who had no idea how to check facts.

Reading those official stats I would be surprised at anyone still admitting the wish to leave the EU

brexit · Post by **brexit** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:57 pm

hiraeth

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:01 pm

All political commentators now in agreement that it will be the softest of Brexits anyway.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:03 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Nothing written in stone, but I think that there's a general understanding that if at some point during negotiations we determined that we no longer wanted to leave, we could just continue as we are. Nothing has changed since the referendum, and the other EU leaders would know that we wouldn't negotiate on the Euro.

I honestly would laugh if we tried to withdraw our notice, having realised how disastrous it would be, and one country decided that because we were ***** over the years in demanding special treatment they veto our request, forcing us to leave. Basically we could end up being kicked out of the EU by Luxembourg.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:03 pm

"hold my hands up and admit is was a mistake"

Up there with "it was a bad call, Ripley, a bad call"

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:15 pm

We voted out last June (despite the huge fear mongering by all parties).

We then had a year of posturing, nothing of substance.

When we finally get an accurate economic assessment of "no deal", "soft Brexit" and Remain (with the ability to fill in the gaps in between the three as well) we cannot give a better opinion than we did last June. We can have that when the bones of a deal are close. Maybe then, we can treat a poll with respect, but until then, it's just people changing their minds like the wind, with every inflammatory article they read.

Right now, with Remainers trying it on in Parliament, people would poll Remain. When the EU start playing silly buggers again, people would poll Leave. In, Out, In, Out, all we're lacking is a bit of shake it all about.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:15 pm

I voted remain. I am saxo.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:22 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:"hold my hands up and admit is was a mistake"

Up there with "it was a bad call, Ripley, a bad call"

When I first read that, I thought it was a quote from Dalglish!

It's not a "bad call" yet though, is it?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:24 pm

Ultimately, it's only going to be one group who decides whether we stay in the EU or not.

The Illuminati

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:25 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:We voted out last June (despite the huge fear mongering by all parties).

We then had a year of posturing, nothing of substance.

When we finally get an accurate economic assessment of "no deal", "soft Brexit" and Remain (with the ability to fill in the gaps in between the three as well) we cannot give a better opinion than we did last June. We can have that when the bones of a deal are close. Maybe then, we can treat a poll with respect, but until then, it's just people changing their minds like the wind, with every inflammatory article they read.

Right now, with Remainers trying it on in Parliament, people would poll Remain. When the EU start playing silly buggers again, people would poll Leave. In, Out, In, Out, all we're lacking is a bit of shake it all about.

If this game doesn't improve a little, i'll provide the "shake it all about".

Fair post. We STILL don't know owt really.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:36 pm

I think that the situation is evolving all the time, and the demographics are changing too.
Young people now understand that if they had got themselves out to vote in the referendum then there wouldn't have been that 4% gap. They now know they can make a difference and you can be sure that as we continue to have elections and / or referenda they will turn out in greater numbers.
There are also an increasing number of people who are becoming concerned about the economic impact of Brexit, as they see prices rising, and start to look a little more at the true costs and benefits of EU membership. As time passes and the reality of our relative weakness in the Brexit negotiations becomes more apparent, there will be quite a few more who start to wonder whether they voted the right way.
People on low incomes are beginning to notice that prices are going up and that the cost of holidays is becoming horrendous; and it's a long time since people like Farage, Gove and Johnson told them how much better off they were going to be if they voted leave. (Most have already had to admit that they were conned about the £350 million for the NHS).
People are also beginning to see that contrary to what they were told, the EU is in fact pulling together and getting stronger and more confident as the months pass. The "populist" revolt that was going to bring down pro-EU parties / leaders all over Europe simply hasn't materialised, and with the likely re-election of Merkel, and the probable rejection of the anti-EU movt in Italy, the future for the UK looks a lot less promising outside the EU than was being portrayed even 2 months ago.
People are also increasingly alarmed at the prospect of us becoming reliant on Trump who is protectionist (and of course has many other issues).

The upshot of this was that a nervous and inadequate Prime Minister, (whose negotiating team have openly admitted that they haven't a clue what they are doing), asked for a mandate for her version of Brexit. It was firmly rejected.
She knows it, and is only in power because of the Scots Tories who are openly seeking a so-called "soft brexit", and the DUP, who also want free movement of goods and people across a soft Irish border. All the opposition parties are committed, to a greater or lesser degree, to retaining the benefits of access to the Single Market and Customs Union.
At the end of the day, MPs, (who of course don't want to lose their seats) will be increasingly taking soundings from their constituents, but the bottom line is that I expect the vast majority to respect the referendum result, and not oppose the final Brexit deal.
If things continue in the current direction of travel, I anticipate the government of the day, (and who knows what shape it will take in a couple of years time), will negotiate and agree to the softest of brexits, which will retain most of the benefits we currently have, in exchange for us paying the majority of what we currently pay into the budget. I further speculate that there might be a paragraph inserted at the end that will include the option of us "re-joining without penalty" should we opt to do so within a period of say 10 years. By this stage, one of the parties might stand on a 2nd referendum promise, (but only if as I have predicted the direction of travel in public opinion has shifted significantly in its favour).

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:37 pm

We are all over the place on it though, country still completely split. And this game is bobbins

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:43 pm

TEDIOUS!!!

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:46 pm

claretandy wrote:85% of people voted for parties whose manifesto had leaving the EU and the single market in, no mandate for remain.

57% of the electorate voted for parties advocating a brexit deal where the red line is the economy (and so full access to the single market and customs union), not control of borders.

So whilst there is a arguably no mandate from this election for remaining in the EU, there is equally no mandate for a hard brexit. Mind you, given that the only referendum question was whether we left the European Union and not the broader organs of European Economic integration, there never was.

Now, hopefully this fractured parliament can force Theresa May and her circle to reach out and deal with Brexit on a cross party basis. Labour, the Lib Dems and the nationalist parties should all be involved and we should show Europe a united front and seek a deal which all in this country can live with. The triumphalism and winner takes all mentality that followed the referendum really must be canned, forever.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:50 pm

You're welcome to read other threads, Caballo, but if you were confident in the desire of the public to still want to leave now that a clearer picture has emerged you'd be arguing the merits of the cliff edge or at the very least, soft Brexit, rather than what you're doing now which is essentially hoping to shut down the debate by criticising the nature of the conversation.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:51 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:We are all over the place on it though, country still completely split. And this game is bobbins

Oh I'm not claiming that we're not. Cameron opened up this deep wound, and let the genie out of the bottle, but the point of my ridiculously long post, is that I now believe that the percentage wanting to remain or favoring a soft brexit is increasing to well over 50%, and I believe the gap will continue to widen over the next 2 years.
The only thing that is likely to shift opinion back in favor of leave (IMO) is if Macron and Merkel start to behave like idiots and try bully us in negotiations, but unlike Mrs May and D. Davis, they're both far too pragmatic and intelligent to do that.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:07 pm

**** it, I say we go back in.