Ypres 100 years ago.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:11 am

Thought I'd mention it as no one seems to have.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:41 am

Back on topic, it was an important battle and I'm surprised its not rated a mention..

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:45 am

It is the hundred year anniversary of the start of the 3rd battle of Ypres, also known as the Battle of Passchendaele after the final 2 phases of the almost 4 month long battle. Men from East Lancashire were heavily involved throughout and suffered thousands of casualties.
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/battles/ypres ... alient.htm

Claret Till I Die · Post by **Claret Till I Die** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:11 am

Lest we forget x

Pearcey · Post by **Pearcey** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:35 am

Watched it last night. An excellent tribute. I've been there a few times. The last was a cycling weekend a couple of weeks ago. I think it's an incredibly important place.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:42 am

The Burnley captain Tommy Boyle was wounded at Ypres. It's hard to even imagine what they went through.

Pearcey · Post by **Pearcey** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:48 am

ClaretTony wrote:The Burnley captain Tommy Boyle was wounded at Ypres. It's hard to even imagine what they went through.

There's a memorial to the footballers who lost their lives at Delville Wood. There's also a small memorial for the Christmas Day game. Amazing to think how kicking a ball around a field can bring people together.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:50 am

Thanks to General Haig, the Scots lost many men, beyond the normal percentage expectancy, as they were used to go over the top to capture machine gun posts, only to be shelled by accurate German guns, if successful. There is a specific memorial to the Scots soldiers who died there, erected in 2007, at the 90th anniversary.

Thanks to every soldier who gave their lives for us.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:02 am

Three years into the War and the High Command had still not ascended its learning curve to discover the futility of marching men, pell-mell, into the sweep of German Maxim Guns.
Three years into the War and they were still spunking the Flower of Youth into the Meat Grinder of Mechanised Warfare to be pulverised into atoms.
The fact that our Generals and Feild Marshals were not summarily hanged after the War and that a hundred years later we are still expected to 'Honour' this 'Sacrifice' as something 'Noble', when in fact it was far, far away from being anything like that, never fails to mystify and anger me in equal measure.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:08 am

It probably seems strange to mention a video game on this thread but I must say that I learned far more about the First World War from Valiant Hearts than I ever did at school. Has anybody else come across that game? Well worth looking at, in my opinion. You pick up collectible items as you go along (learning about their uses in the war) and learn various historical facts as the game progresses. Anyway, that covers Ypres among other events/locations.

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:12 am

The fact that our Generals and Feild Marshals were not summarily hanged after the War and that a hundred years later we are still expected to 'Honour' this 'Sacrifice' as something 'Noble', when in fact it was far, far away from being anything like that, never fails to mystify and anger me in equal measure.

The war was also not much more than a family feud, where millions of men who stood to gain nothing from victory were slaughtered on command of the government.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:17 am

dushanbe wrote:The war was also not much more than a family feud, where millions of men who stood to gain nothing from victory were slaughtered on command of the government.

Indeed. The First World War was far from the 'Noble Cause' it has been painted to be in the subsequent century.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:19 am

No doubt the generals and Field Marshalls all got their gongs.

To quote Baldrick

Boom, boom, boom, boom,
Boom, boom, boom, boom,
Boom, boom, boom, boom,
....all together now....
Boom, boom, boom, boom,

Culmclaret · Post by **Culmclaret** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:31 am

3rd Ypres was thankfully about the only major WW1 battle in which a member of my family did not fight. Am probably here today because my paternal grandfather who was in the 1/5 Lancs Fusiliers was sent home from Etaples in June 1917 because it transpired he was under age.

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:46 am

Just as an aside let's remember the 88% of the British and Commonwealth (Empire as it was then!) soldiers who made it out of the 3rd Battle of Ypres alive.

Yup; that's right- only 12% were killed during the 105 days of the 3rd Battle of Ypres, of which the battle for Passchendaele was only part. Approximately another 22% were wounded.

Which means that overall a soldier fighting in the 3rd Battle of Ypres had a 2 in 3 chance of NOT being wounded or killed.

But that's not being mentioned by the BBC....a fact that many historians are screaming about on Twitter!

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:51 am

Lord Beamish wrote:The fact that our Generals and Feild Marshals were not summarily hanged after the War and that a hundred years later we are still expected to 'Honour' this 'Sacrifice' as something 'Noble', when in fact it was far, far away from being anything like that, never fails to mystify and anger me in equal measure.

Spot on Beamish. No such hesitation in hanging those kids scared s**tless and driven insane by a world we can't imagine though.

Still, let's honour the noble sacrifice as you say. It was a disgusting, horrific and shameful event and should be remembered as such. You can still believe that while having nothing but respect and awe for the bravery of every one of the poor bastards who went through it on both sides.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:54 am

1 in 3 killed or wounded? That is huge. Consider that today, every soldier killed or wounded whilst serving on active duty, makes the news and gets a military funeral, if one of the dead. The losses are real individuals to everyone, today. Back then, just unreported numbers in our 'success' overseas.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:55 am

Or to put it another way....
You go over the top and either the guy to your left or right will be shot and wounded or killed....unless it's your turn.

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:16 am

Our survival rates were the best out of any of the main combatant nations....the French and German rates were significantly worse.

I'm not saying it's "good" but we adapted better and were more successful than any of the other combatants. Even the Germans admitted at the end of 1916 that they could not have re-fought the Battle of the Somme the following year because of the losses they suffered. The heart of the pre-war German army was destroyed....

Culmclaret · Post by **Culmclaret** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:39 am

On survival rates, it is a case of understanding the statistics. The 12% is the figure for all combatants including those who arrived at the front in say, Oct 1918. I have undertaken detailed research into a front line battalion through the course of the war. Just under 30% of the those who went to the front from early to mid 1915 were killed and about 25% so seriously wounded or iil that they were discharged as medically unfit. Not quite such good odds!

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:43 am

It was an awful war and our casualties were many but the poor Russians lost many more. Mrs MDD2 and I have visited the Menin Gate and Tyne Cot just this month and to say it is a humbling experience is an understatement-the rows and rows of headstones and no names-pure slaughter and awful as WW2 was for us we did better from the dead and wounded perspective. After visiting Ypres we went on to St Petersburg aka Leningrad where from 1941-44 a period of over 800 days the City was beseiged. One in three buildings were damaged and 1 in 7 destroyed. Over 1 million people died in that time many from starvation with a death rate at its height of over 100,000/month.One city over 1 million dead and I think over 20million in total as opposed to our 500,000 or thereabouts
Little wonder the Russians remain concerned about their Western borders having had them breached thrre times in 200 years by factions of the West

Culmclaret · Post by **Culmclaret** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:44 am

On survival rates, it is a case of understanding the statistics. The 12% is the figure for all combatants including those who arrived at the front in say, Oct 1918. I have undertaken detailed research into a front line battalion through the course of the war. Just under 30% of the those who went to the front from early to mid 1915 were killed and about 25% so seriously wounded or iil that they were discharged as medically unfit. Not quite such good odds!

Sackville · Post by **Sackville** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:49 am

My great grandad was wounded at Ypres n died of his wounds will be 100 yrs august 30 rip

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:52 am

There were dreadful odds. So many reports were of "died of his wounds" No M&B or penicillin in those days.
Always interesting to read that more died of Spanish Flu in the epidemic 1918-20 (Jan 18-Dec 20) than in WW1 with an estimated 50-100million deaths
Attrition rate similar to being at the Front with about 20% of those infected dying

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:22 am

NottsClaret wrote:Spot on Beamish. No such hesitation in hanging those kids scared s**tless and driven insane by a world we can't imagine though.

Still, let's honour the noble sacrifice as you say. It was a disgusting, horrific and shameful event and should be remembered as such. You can still believe that while having nothing but respect and awe for the bravery of every one of the poor bastards who went through it on both sides.

I have nothing but sympathy and pity for those wasted lives and utterly miserable, ultimately pointless deaths.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:33 am

Culmclaret wrote:On survival rates, it is a case of understanding the statistics. The 12% is the figure for all combatants including those who arrived at the front in say, Oct 1918. I have undertaken detailed research into a front line battalion through the course of the war. Just under 30% of the those who went to the front from early to mid 1915 were killed and about 25% so seriously wounded or iil that they were discharged as medically unfit. Not quite such good odds!

That is you or your mate certain death, wounding or shell shocked for life.

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:40 am

Culmclaret wrote:On survival rates, it is a case of understanding the statistics. The 12% is the figure for all combatants including those who arrived at the front in say, Oct 1918. I have undertaken detailed research into a front line battalion through the course of the war. Just under 30% of the those who went to the front from early to mid 1915 were killed and about 25% so seriously wounded or iil that they were discharged as medically unfit. Not quite such good odds!

(1) my 12% figure was simply for 3rd Ypres

(2) any chance of the research? Would be interesting to read.... paul_michael_hargreaves @ hotmail.com

ten bellies · Post by **ten bellies** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:49 am

Luckily my paternal Grandad survived Neuve Chapelle, Messines, and Passchendaele. My Dad said he only ever talked about it when he'd had a few beers. He once described to him, being in a trench full of water, when he slipped and put his hand out on the side of the trench to stop himself falling. His hand came into contact with something which didn't feel right. He looked to see he had put his and on the decaying skull of a soldier, buried into the side of the trench. The horror is unimaginable.

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:55 am

NottsClaret wrote:Spot on Beamish. No such hesitation in hanging those kids scared s**tless and driven insane by a world we can't imagine though.

And then of course, their wives and dependents were denied any pension or support, often being shunned by the community for being married to a coward.

Harrythomsonscap · Post by **Harrythomsonscap** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:00 pm

100 years ago today Private Thomas Whitam was awarded The Victoria Cross.He was at The Battle of Passchendaele.his medal is in Townley Hall. He is buried in The Ingamite Church Wheatley Lane. His grave is maintained by his regiment

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:14 pm

dushanbe wrote:And then of course, their wives and dependents were denied any pension or support, often being shunned by the community for being married to a coward.

But of course it was much better in the olden days, wasn't it?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:19 pm

Coverage by the BBC has been absolutely perfectly judged, balanced and informative, and should serve as a reminder of why the majority of us regard it as a valuable public service.

FulledgeClaret · Post by **FulledgeClaret** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:40 pm

It achieved very little in the end apart from a horrific number of casualties, Some good interviews with survivors on youtube here's a short one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfqTWur1EPI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you really can't imagine what those young men went through it must have been terrifying.
Most of the battles ended up being for nothing more than a few feet of ground with eye watering levels of losses on both sides.
To use another Blackadder quote which for me sums up the futility and insanity of WW1 perfectly "Field Marshal Haig is about to make yet another gargantuan effort to move his drinks cabinet six inches closer to Berlin."

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:44 pm

Kaiser Willy was reputed to have once said that the Balkans weren't worth the balls of one Pomeranian Grenadier.
I wish they'd have all lived by that maxim.

whereeaglesfly · Post by **whereeaglesfly** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:58 pm

I am a friend of Private Thomas Whithams grandson . His other grandson Jack played football for Sheffield Wednesday and Liverpool. From what I have read the Scots had a large presence at Passchendaele and it is said that during the war they lost 10% of the male population.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:14 pm

I'm presently in Ypres for the commemorations. My Paternal Grandfather fought at Passchendaele with the Burnley battery Royal Field Artillery. Fortunately, he survived!

Pearcey · Post by **Pearcey** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:32 pm

Have to agree that it was a pointless war. Four years of stalemate and needless deaths. The Farm's 'All together now' sums it up in the first line of the song. "Remember boy that your forefathers died, lost in millions for a country's pride"

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:35 pm

A pointless war?

Not at all....it was necessary in order to prevent Germanic hegemony in Europe; which would have then spread much further if left unchecked.

der4 · Post by **der4** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:03 pm

if anyone is online may I recommend.andrew gills .burnley in the great war.for instance 45 men,from fhe burnley area died,on the 1st day

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:14 pm

The causes of the Great War were down to the ambition, pride and political empire building by the Germans, Austro-Hungarians, British, French and Russians. They all made treaties to defend smaller nations and entered into mutual defence pacts with 1 or more of the other great powers. This network of alliance and pacts meant that Russia had agreed to defend Serbia from attack and therefore declared war on the Austro-Hungarians when they invaded Serbia in reprisal for the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand. France had agreed a mutual defence pact with Russia and Germany with the Austro-Hungarians so they were dragged in. We had agreed to defend Belgium so declared war on Germany when they entered Belgium on their way to France. The Italians hated the Austrians and Serbs as they occupied large areas of North Italy so they joined in on the Allied side too.

Simple

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:24 pm

Anyone who wants to google a more pointless slaughter just needs to do "Verdun"

The actual German aim was to bleed the French army through heavy casualties.

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:46 pm

If the French had lost Verdun then that would have been it- war over in 1916!

The need to take pressure off the French at Verdun was what led us into altering our plans for the Somme offensive of that year- we ended up attacking on a much larger battlefront than we planned on doing originally and so we were spread much thinner than we wanted to be.

The other thing that people forget (or more likely don't know!) is that during the Great War we were actually the junior partners and France was actually in charge of us. when people talk of the failings of our generals they need to remember that we were being constrained quite heavily by "realpolitik"....not to mention that we started the war with a small volunteer army and were up against large conscription armies with plenty of experience and training.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:19 pm

Thanks for the contributions to the thread, some really interesting stuff there. I myself have done Verdun too.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:31 pm

BurnleyPaul wrote:(1) my 12% figure was simply for 3rd Ypres

(2) any chance of the research? Would be interesting to read.... paul_michael_hargreaves @ hotmail.com

BP, you're not the younger brother of Glynn by any chance?

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:23 pm

BurnleyPaul wrote:If the French had lost Verdun then that would have been it- war over in 1916!

The need to take pressure off the French at Verdun was what led us into altering our plans for the Somme offensive of that year- we ended up attacking on a much larger battlefront than we planned on doing originally and so we were spread much thinner than we wanted to be.

The other thing that people forget (or more likely don't know!) is that during the Great War we were actually the junior partners and France was actually in charge of us. when people talk of the failings of our generals they need to remember that we were being constrained quite heavily by "realpolitik"....not to mention that we started the war with a small volunteer army and were up against large conscription armies with plenty of experience and training.

As mentioned above, the Somme was the biggest slaughter of British troops to that date, and it was insisted upon by the French so as to draw German forces away from Verdun and the b4stards still hate us for saving them. 1944 is the icing on the cake and Les Frogs still claim C De Gaulle was the 'liberateur de France' even though the lily livered f*cker followed along a week after the real liberators. C'est la vie as the french would say.

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:31 pm

Belgianclaret wrote:BP, you're not the younger brother of Glynn by any chance?

Nope- have no brothers.

ecc · Post by **ecc** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:57 pm

It was not a noble cause. It was highly avoidable unlike WWII where there we had to fight the Nazis (and their Axis cronies).

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:59 pm

At the time, it wasn't avoidable. The Germans wanted a war and they got one.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:06 pm

Here's how to explain WW1 as a pub fight;

· Germany, Austria and Italy are stood together nattering in the middle of the pub, when Serbia (who’s a bit p!ssed) bumps into Austria, and spills his pint.

· Austria demands Serbia buy him a complete new suit, because there are splashes of beer on his trouser leg.

· Germany expresses a full and enthusiastic support for Austria's point of view

· Britain recommends that everyone calm down a bit.

· Serbia points out that it can't afford a whole suit, but offers to pay for cleaning Austria's trousers.

· Russia and Serbia look at Austria.

· Germany and Austria asks Russia who he thinks he’s looking at.

· Russia suggests that Austria should leave its little brother alone.

· Austria inquires as to whose army will be with Russia in compelling it to do so.

· Germany then complains to Britain that France has been looking at him, and that this is sufficiently out of order that Britain should not intervene if anyone starts anything.

· Britain replies that France can look at whoever he wants to and besides, Britain is looking at Germany too and anyway, what is Germany going to do about it?

· Germany tells Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action.

· Britain and France ask Germany whether he’s looking at Belgium.

· Turkey and Germany go off into a corner and whisper. When they come back, Turkey makes a show of not looking at anyone.

· Germany rolls up its sleeves, looks at France, promptly punches Belgium while Belgium isn’t looking and that’s when it all kicked off.

· France and Britain punch Germany

· Austria punches Russia.

· Germany punches Britain and France with one hand and Russia with the other.

· Russia throws a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over.

· Japan calls over from the other side of the room that it's on Britain's side, but stays there and looks at China.

· Italy surprises everyone by punching Austria.

· Australia and New Zealand join in and punch Turkey, but get punched back. There are no hard feelings, because Britain made them do it.

· Australia and New Zealand leave Turkey alone and punch Germany instead. Turkey sits in the corner and sulks.

· France gets thrown through a window, but gets back up and comes back in to carry on fighting.

· Russia gets thrown through the other window, hits his head on the pavement, gets knocked out, suffers brain damage, and wakes up with a complete personality change.

· Italy throws a punch at Austria and misses, but Austria falls over anyway. Italy raises both fists in the air and runs round the room chanting.

· America waits till Germany is about to fall over after sustained punching from Britain and France, walks over and smashes him with a barstool, then pretends he won the fight all by himself.

· By now all the chairs, most of the tables & nearly all the glasses are broken, and the big mirror over the bar is shattered.

· Britain, France, and America agree that Germany threw the first punch, so the whole thing is Germany's fault.

· While Germany is still unconscious, they go through his pockets, steal his wallet, and buy drinks for all their friends.

· Turkey sits in the corner sulking.

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:06 pm

ecc wrote:It was not a noble cause. It was highly avoidable unlike WWII where there we had to fight the Nazis (and their Axis cronies).

It was not avoidable....

We had to get involved to prevent German hegemony in Europe. If Germany had won the Great War then we'd have still seen a rise in nationalism and proto-fascism as the Kaiser, Luddendorff etc were very right wing. Democracy would have died out in most of Europe and dictatorship would have been in....

WWII would still have happened as Germany would have wanted to expand (remember 'Lebensraum'?) into our empire and colonies but Germany would have been in a much stronger position at the start and would have won.

The holocaust may not have happened but fierce anti-semitism would have been prevalent and there would have been major persecution of the Jews- including extreme violence!

In short- it was not available. We had to get involved and stop Germany.