Is investing in an academy worth it or is it a white elephant?

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If it's a white elephant and clubs ditch youth systems then where do the young players come from?

Take a look at our squad and see how many of them have come through the youth systems in England, most of them will be the answer. Not many have come through ours, admittedly, but they have still come through the system.

It's worth reading the comments regarding Brentford's situation.

Hipper wrote:It's worth reading the comments regarding Brentford's situation.

Brentford work in a strange way though in any case with a model different to every other club. We'll only be able to judge them I would think when their youth system (or lack of it), introduced last year, has got itself established. Interesting that some on here criticised us for our u23s, B team, whatever you wish to call them, were not playing any competitive football, but that's how Brentford have now chosen to do it.

I would hate to see this idea grow. For ever club that ditch their youth system there are less places for young kids to get the opportunity. Ultimately that surely has to lead to a serious problem for English football and English footballers.

I'll have a read of it later on my lunch, but are youth set up more productive on the continent?

If so is it just a case of giving it time to work?
That's what I often think it needs, just time.

nice buildings .. top class facilities .. lovely .. just one big problem in the British Isles

COACHING and the way we as a collective approach the game ..

we still have too much emphasis on power , pace and physique at the expense of technique and tactical awareness .. IMHO of course

I actually think it's every club's duty to run an academy. We have to make every possible effort to encourage and improve young footballers.

You mean hoof it isn't the way forward?

Sidney1st wrote:You mean hoof it isn't the way forward?

I would say that the performance of the five nations within these islands since the war suggests not

We should scrap it completely. Waste of effort and money. Should have a system like american sports where all teams get access to the same pool. Worse teams getting access to better prospects.

ralph wrote:nice buildings .. top class facilities .. lovely .. just one big problem in the British Isles

COACHING and the way we as a collective approach the game ..

we still have too much emphasis on power , pace and physique at the expense of technique and tactical awareness .. IMHO of course

Agree completely. Bigger and stronger kids always get picked ahead of smaller more technically gifted players. If an u12 coach is measured on results he doesnt care that the small tricky player will fill out at 19. He wants the lad whos 6 inch taller and 2 stone heavier.

Renarkable given that tackling and anything physical is all but banned.

cricketfieldclarets wrote:We should scrap it completely. Waste of effort and money. Should have a system like american sports where all teams get access to the same pool. Worse teams getting access to better prospects.

Or a system like Lilleshall and Clairefontaine.

My dad attended an FA coaching course at Lilleshall in 1960 ...England's record since is there for all to see not that I'd directly blame my Dad to be fair

"I'll have a read of it later on my lunch, but are youth set up more productive on the continent?"

Hi Sidney1st,

Oddly enough, I was reading about Rennes' Academy this morning. They have produced a large number of their own players including Ousmane Dembélé who recently moved from Dortmund to Barcelona for the best part of £100m. Rennes sold him for £13.5m twelve months ago. They will have built add-ons into the contract. Just checked and it's estimated that they will have got the same amount of money due to his sale to Barcelona.

The French FA have issued figures about academies: the average amount spent by first-tier clubs on their academies is roughly €3.5m per year.

There's no doubt that most French clubs get a significant part of their income from transfers. TV money is much less than in England.

There's also a saving which is difficult to calculate namely not having to pay a transfer fee, signing-on fee and agent's fee w
for each player coming through the Academy.

ralph wrote:nice buildings .. top class facilities .. lovely .. just one big problem in the British Isles

COACHING and the way we as a collective approach the game ..

we still have too much emphasis on power , pace and physique at the expense of technique and tactical awareness .. IMHO of course

Spot on there... especially at junior ages. Seen 3 brilliant technical players thrown off the conveyor belt for not being tall enough......
Signing players at 8 years old which make them unable to play for their grassroots teams also is terrible.

But that's another story

claretbucky1978 wrote:Spot on there... especially at junior ages. Seen 3 brilliant technical players thrown off the conveyor belt for not being tall enough......
Signing players at 8 years old which make them unable to play for their grassroots teams also is terrible.

But that's another story

I'm told that blocking young kids from playing elsewhere, particularly for their schools, is no longer the case at Burnley.

ClaretTony wrote:Brentford work in a strange way though in any case with a model different to every other club. We'll only be able to judge them I would think when their youth system (or lack of it), introduced last year, has got itself established. Interesting that some on here criticised us for our u23s, B team, whatever you wish to call them, were not playing any competitive football, but that's how Brentford have now chosen to do it.

I would hate to see this idea grow. For ever club that ditch their youth system there are less places for young kids to get the opportunity. Ultimately that surely has to lead to a serious problem for English football and English footballers.

Yes, but the problem is that the current system plainly isn't working for England and English footballers either. I believe this is because all the best young talent is hoovered up by the big clubs, but when they get to "working age" they can't get in first teams because the big clubs want match-ready, top class pros - usually foreign.

It therefore follows that the best chance for lower level clubs may well be picking up older rejects and loans from the big clubs. This is already happening, so you can't blame clubs for reaching the conclusion that their own accadamies are a waste of time and money.

Having said that, I completely agree with Boatshed above that developing talent should be part of any football club's raison d'etre. Unfortunately, no-one really looks at the bigger picture - everything is organised to suit the interests of the big clubs.

I've just been re-reading Jimmy Macs autobiography and he was complaining about size and strength over skill in 1960.
He was also unhappy about generic coaching.

scouseclaret wrote:Yes, but the problem is that the current system plainly isn't working for England and English footballers either. I believe this is because all the best young talent is hoovered up by the big clubs, but when they get to "working age" they can't get in first teams because the big clubs want match-ready, top class pros - usually foreign.

It therefore follows that the best chance for lower level clubs may well be picking up older rejects and loans from the big clubs. This is already happening, so you can't blame clubs for reaching the conclusion that their own accadamies are a waste of time and money.

Having said that, I completely agree with Boatshed above that developing talent should be part of any football club's raison d'etre. Unfortunately, no-one really looks at the bigger picture - everything is organised to suit the interests of the big clubs.

Not a lot to disagree with there scouseclaret - in so many ways it isn't working. But a club like Chelsea will tell you that their academy works because they are producing footballers, just not, generally, for their own club.

With you also on agreeing with Boatshed's sentiments.

It's very hard to give players a chance. At any club really. The stakes are far to high.

Take a look at Man Utd and Michael Keane for instance.

Is he good enough to play for United right now?? Possibly.
Was he good enough to play for United we he choose to come to Burnley?? No.

Unless a young player is ready/good enough to step straight into the first team at any club/level, he won't be given a chance there.

It's the same here with our young players.

We are also in an era where everybody wants little tricky players the next David Silva or Messi etc. All talents should be given opportunities. Where are the Wingers like Giggs, Overmars these days? Players like Roy Keane and Vieria. Clubs are crying out for these players but since everyone seemed to get boners over spain/barcelona nobody wanted them.

It might be better for England/FA to take over the academies or coaching of all kids until 18 then let clubs buy from the system.
Each club could contribute X amount per year towards it.

Quickenthetempo wrote:It might be better for England/FA to take over the academies or coaching of all kids until 18 then let clubs buy from the system.
Each club could contribute X amount per year towards it.

That would be a decent thought if the FA coaching strategy had ,at anytime over the past 72 years, shown an aptitude for competing effectively with continental coaching methods ?

The only real solution I can see is for the introduction of minimum quotas for home-grown players - in starting line-ups, not just squads.

May be possible post-Brexit?

scouseclaret wrote:The only real solution I can see is for the introduction of minimum quotas for home-grown players - in starting line-ups, not just squads.

May be possible post-Brexit?

I would love to see Conte and Wenger's faces if this happened, ,can't see it though even with this government.

Dyched wrote:It's very hard to give players a chance. At any club really. The stakes are far to high.

Take a look at Man Utd and Michael Keane for instance.

Is he good enough to play for United right now?? Possibly.
Was he good enough to play for United we he choose to come to Burnley?? No.

Unless a young player is ready/good enough to step straight into the first team at any club/level, he won't be given a chance there.

It's the same here with our young players.

We are also in an era where everybody wants little tricky players the next David Silva or Messi etc. All talents should be given opportunities. Where are the Wingers like Giggs, Overmars these days? Players like Roy Keane and Vieria. Clubs are crying out for these players but since everyone seemed to get boners over spain/barcelona nobody wanted them.

Players will get the chance if they are good enough Rashford at Man U and Woodburn at Liverpool prove that, ly they are the expection which proves the rule.

tiger76 wrote:I would love to see Conte and Wenger's faces if this happened, ,can't see it though even with this government.

It would still actually favour the big clubs because they have all the best young players, but it would be for the betterment of the English game as a whole.

There is more than just offering training in football - this is an interesting tale of another weakness with the English approach

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40642854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

scouseclaret wrote:It would still actually favour the big clubs because they have all the best young players, but it would be for the betterment of the English game as a whole.

At least Chelsea might actually play young English talent then instead of selling or loaning them.

Chelsea have a number of their academy players playing in the Premier League and Championship right now. Maybe it's not for their own club but they are producing footballers.

Quickenthetempo wrote:It might be better for England/FA to take over the academies or coaching of all kids until 18 then let clubs buy from the system.
Each club could contribute X amount per year towards it.

That would be a disaster. I wouldn't trust the FA with anything.

ClaretTony wrote:That would be a disaster. I wouldn't trust the FA with anything.

The youth teams have won world cups recently and Lilleshall is supposed to be exceptional.

If all the funding went under the FAs control then the best youth coaches would work for them.

You must know more about them than me but it seems harsh.

Quickenthetempo wrote:The youth teams have won world cups recently and Lilleshall is supposed to be exceptional.

If all the funding went under the FAs control then the best youth coaches would work for them.

You must know more about them than me but it seems harsh.

The players who have done well for the young England teams have been coached at clubs, not by the FA. Some clubs are clearly better at it than others for a number of reasons, but every one of those players was selected from a club's academy.

ClaretTony wrote:The players who have done well for the young England teams have been coached at clubs, not by the FA. Some clubs are clearly better at it than others for a number of reasons, but every one of those players was selected from a club's academy.

I realise that, but by winning tournaments with them they must be doing something right.

The clubs have a poor record of developing them into adult players on the whole.

Quickenthetempo wrote:I realise that, but by winning tournaments with them they must be doing something right.

The clubs have a poor record of developing them into adult players on the whole.

Was Paul Simpson, former Preston manager, wasn't it who was in charge of the team that won the World Cup? He's only been working with the u20s since losing his job at Newcastle during last season.

Quickenthetempo wrote:The youth teams have won world cups recently and Lilleshall is supposed to be exceptional.

If all the funding went under the FAs control then the best youth coaches would work for them.

You must know more about them than me but it seems harsh.

I think you might be thinking of St.George's Park ? the FA left Lilleshall in 1999

St.George's Park is very impressive as are many academy set ups around the country indeed some have to be seen to be believed ...

which takes us back to coaching and player development after the age of say 18/19 ?

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Agree completely. Bigger and stronger kids always get picked ahead of smaller more technically gifted players. If an u12 coach is measured on results he doesnt care that the small tricky player will fill out at 19. He wants the lad whos 6 inch taller and 2 stone heavier.

Renarkable given that tackling and anything physical is all but banned.

But in order for that to work it would have to have far better structured school-level football, which would be an expense to the State, then into College-level, where scholarships could be made available, and for their to be an entire college-level league and infrastructure - all that s o you could operate a draft pick, and my guess is it would be challenged by freedom of labor/movement protagonists.....

Nice idea, but a pipe dream

Ralph has it bob on!!the academy's in this country seem to want athletes over footballers technically gifted played are given the boot the system is totally flawed..

Sheedyclaret wrote:Ralph has it bob on!!the academy's in this country seem to want athletes over footballers technically gifted played are given the boot the system is totally flawed..

I don't think you can label academies collectively. Each one is individual and runs its own way.

I have been looking at various academies in the north west and have been invited to a few including our own at Gawthorpe / Barnfield as my son is attracting some interest. What surprises me the most is that most of our rival but lower league clubs (whilst poorer or with poorer facilities) seem to be more clued up in terms of identity, philosophy, vision, player pathways and so on. I can't find any information about our academy on line. No resources for players and parents, player success stories etc which many of the others have. Plus the number of academy coaches and scouts who seem to have been in and out of the club over the past few years is also concerning. I truly hope we make it work but I feel there's still a lot more work to be done.

There is a lot more work to be done .. don't forget where the current management has had to start from. The academy rating is conditional and fluid - a work in progress.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere for clubs to make their academies work.

Is there a limit on the number of young players a club can sign up?
If not then maybe there should be as this would prevent the bigger clubs hoovering up all the best youngsters.

The homegrown rule needs looking at too, because clubs also take advantage of that to sign young kids from abroad at the right age to allow them to become 'homegrown' like Fabregas.

Huddersfield Academy parents just been informed tonight , they intend to close the Academy as it is and aim for Cat 4 asap I believe

It's cheaper to "vulture" the rejects like Michael Keane or Ben Mee, but if you want first choice, you need your own set-up.

Andingle wrote:Huddersfield Academy parents just been informed tonight , they intend to close the Academy as it is and aim for Cat 4 asap I believe

And Cadamateri actively trying to recruit their kids to BFC on social media.

agreenwood wrote:And Cadamateri actively trying to recruit their kids to BFC on social media.

He isn't the only one , they have some good kids in their Academy to be fair including two in the England Youth set up

BaldButBeautiful wrote:I have been looking at various academies in the north west and have been invited to a few including our own at Gawthorpe / Barnfield as my son is attracting some interest. What surprises me the most is that most of our rival but lower league clubs (whilst poorer or with poorer facilities) seem to be more clued up in terms of identity, philosophy, vision, player pathways and so on. I can't find any information about our academy on line. No resources for players and parents, player success stories etc which many of the others have. Plus the number of academy coaches and scouts who seem to have been in and out of the club over the past few years is also concerning. I truly hope we make it work but I feel there's still a lot more work to be done.

You refer to the past few years and sadly that's more evidence of the destruction caused by Blake. I, and others, have posted time and time again on the message board at the number of coaches and staff who were leaving the club and it was all down to that horrible man who should never, ever be allowed inside a football club again.

There is considerable work to be done but, remember, Blake has only been gone just over a year and the new academy manager Jon Pepper has been here for just a year during which time we've successfully got ourselves a climb to category 2. It is improving, and it is improving significantly, but it will take time and there has to be patience from all involved to give it that time.

agreenwood wrote:And Cadamateri actively trying to recruit their kids to BFC on social media.

That's good - we have a lot of holes to fill because of what's happened in the last few years. If doing that can fill some of the holes, then I'm all for it.

ClaretTony wrote:That's good - we have a lot of holes to fill because of what's happened in the last few years. If doing that can fill some of the holes, then I'm all for it.

I know that all clubs do it - look for offcasts from other academies etc .... But I would love more emphasis on local lads being given the nod in our academy. Looking at out youth teams and seeing lads come and go from up and down the country is odd.

If the "success" rate is that low - could it be argued that more local lads who bleed claret and blue playing in our youth teams would give us an edge maybe not in grit but drive and willingness to learn and give your all for your local club.

bfccrazy wrote:I know that all clubs do it - look for offcasts from other academies etc .... But I would love more emphasis on local lads being given the nod in our academy. Looking at out youth teams and seeing lads come and go from up and down the country is odd.

If the "success" rate is that low - could it be argued that more local lads who bleed claret and blue playing in our youth teams would give us an edge maybe not in grit but drive and willingness to learn and give your all for your local club.

Sadly, the old regime broke off the links with local clubs and with the local schools - the good news is that the new people in charge of recruitment are now trying to build those bridges.

ClaretTony wrote:Sadly, the old regime broke off the links with local clubs and with the local schools - the good news is that the new people in charge of recruitment are now trying to build those bridges.

It is a huge shame - that lads from Burnley who have supported them all their lives ...... Havent had an avenue into the youth teams.

I know a few parents who laugh now at Burnley "scouting" their kids as they are bot prepared to go down there and give the club the time. There are lads I know who have turned down contracts with local academies to carry on playing on Sunday mornings with their mates instead.

Something is very wrong with this .... It's good to know that things are changing again thougj as there is a lot of proper Burnley supporting kids playing locally who are very good. They just don't turn up to "scouting days" where the parents have paid a couple of hundred pounds for scouts to come and watch them.