It’s come to something when an actor can make the health secretary look a fool so easily


http://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ral ... alf-little" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



People think JH is failing in his job as health secretary, when in fact he is succeeding in the job he was given. Run down the NHS so the public believe the only way of saving it is through privatisation

That’s the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital

Noam Chomsky

I don't need to comment really, you already know what I'm going to say about the NHS, it's failings and how it isn't all the Tories fault.

Healthcare can only ever be one of the following

a) Universal and Affordable but not Good
b) Affordable and Good but not Universal
c) Good and Universal but not Affordable.

Although new labour did not do a great job with the NHS, particularly with the PFI buildings, I would argue to say that this government are actively trying to destroy it.

In 09/10 only 8% of NHS providers were in deficit. Now that’s between 75-80%.

There are several reasons for this but one often highlighted is agency staff. But when you make it a lot harder for people to train as nurses, then you need agency staff. Also nurses are leaving the profession at an alarming rate.

What Hunt should do is come out with his real plan to privatise the NHS, rather than doing it on the sly, and let the country vote on it

This would have been a brilliant thread if the title had been literal

The most deserved Cockney rhyming slang ever.
Hopefully being a "right Jeremy" will be his only legacy.

Unfortunately I fear it might not be.

Labour wasted £11 billion on a system that was scrapped.
Neither of the main parties actually runs the NHS properly.

Labour throw money at it without dealing with the waste and issues, send work out to private hospitals and everyone tosses themselves off thinking Labour have done a great job .

Tories try to cut the waste but go to far with it and everyone complains.

Neither model works, but they'd all rather play political football with it...

We will go round in circles with this everytime it's mentioned on here because Labour and Tory supporters can't see past their political parties.

But Labour mummy, but Labour....

I agree to some degree Sidney. New Labour started a lot of problems we see today.

I actually think the NHS May benefit from some areas being privatised. IMO informatics should be privatised because currently each trust does their own thing. One trusts system doesn’t talk to another’s and money is still wasted in that area nationally. Privatising that but setting clear objectives could be an answer, but I am no expert.

What I find annoying is the underhand tactics Hunt is using. He should just come out with his plan to privatise the NHS and let the country decide if they want it.

People who think the NHS doesn’t provide good care at an affordable price need to look elsewhere on the world for comparison. For acute care the NHS is still one of the world leaders despite the underfunding. A lot of the issues facing the nhs is the lack of community care. That issue is only going to get worse as we are all living long. What is needed is a proper plan, not a underhand, sly plan to run the nhs down like hunt is

UpTheBeehole wrote:But Labour mummy, but Labour....

Nobody has said labour have the answers. Do you just bring labour into this to start an argument

Inchy wrote:Nobody has said labour have the answers. Do you just bring labour into this to start an argument

It was in response to Sidney's But Labour quivering lip he gets out every time the NHS is mentioned

Oh sorry. It’s difficult to keep up with who votes for who on here

Barba has nailed it.

There's an interesting book by a chap called Alex Knight, called 'Pride and Joy'. With 30 years experience advising in the NHS he goes into minute detail of how, by working in silos and always concentrating on local optimisation, the NHS has become terribly disjointed, communication is poor, there are inefficiencies with millions wasted, not through wastefulness per se, just because there isn't enough joined up thinking.

The last thing a failing organisation needs is more money throwing at it, no matter what a typecast actor may say, what it needs is everyone working to the same end, on the same patients to get them through the system quicker. There is patient responsibility too. Don't go to A and E if you're drunk, look after your own elderly relatives, eat less junk etc

All in all, the morale in the NHS, in many departments, is shot, and so to get everyone working on the same agenda is nigh on impossible. It's not easy in the private sector. The staff need to be happy and money is not the answer.

I think Sidney may have ghosted Knight's book

Health, education and crime are three areas where you need successful long term planning but are all used for short term political gain. All three should be managed by cross party committees (with the chair of the committee being the relevant secretary of state these committees could consult with experts) in order to shift the focus into long term consistency rather than chopping and changing every time there's a new government.

A lot of the issues facing the nhs is the lack of community care.

And you still have people on here going on about Burnley A & E dept (and others)

There is a finite amount of money available (even under Lab) and it seems to me that excellent community care will reduce the pressures significantly on the hospitals and A & E depts.

Regarding the IT stuff, wasn't Lorenzo something to do with that, and didn't that fail, and fail ridiculously expensively as well? Or is it still a thing?

Billions were wasted with the failed IT system - unfortunately typical public sector grandiose ideas trying to bring the NHS into the 21st century but biting off far more than they can chew when they should have prioritised what was needed first and brought in experts from private sector to implement.

Will always be a political football the NHS - all parties just muck it up in different ways.....though Torys are trying to destroy it

The public are partly to blame though. How many people are actually ill when they go to A&E, or at least needing to see a doctor when they probably don't need to?

It wastes a large amount of resources with the lack of regard the public has for departments such as Accident and Emergency, especially when they treat it as a drop-in centre for minor ailments, a number of which won't require treatment by the NHS.

Spijed wrote:The public are partly to blame though.

Hard to disagree with that. They keep voting the Conservatives in and they voted for Brexit. The daft sods.

UpTheBeehole wrote:But Labour mummy, but Labour....

This is why I think you're a dick head.

I point out where both parties fail and you ignored it.

Both political flanks struggle to see the other's point of view.

It wasn't always the case in parliament, but the current Labour front bench has remarkable tunnel vision and, as such, its followers are the same.
There are a lot of left leaning people with more breadth though, I must say.

UpTheBeehole wrote:It was in response to Sidney's But Labour quivering lip he gets out every time the NHS is mentioned

You're the idiot who can't see past the Tories when it comes to issues within the NHS.

Tories didn't waste £11 BILLION on a computing system that was eventually scrapped.

Both parties have allowed the NHS to farm out work to private hospitals where NHS doctors are also working on the side.
Both parties are to blame for not dealing with the NHS issues properly.

You, and people like you, are only interested in blaming one side to suit your political agendas and this is why the thing never gets dealt with properly.

Doctors and nurses need better pay, better working hours and conditions, not the chief executives.
A senior manager can get fired for gross incompetence in one trust and walk into another job in the next trust down the road.
Others retire, claim their pension pot and start work again the following week in the same place with the same job.

It's happened with both parties in charge for a lot of the issues......you keep blaming the one party though, moron.

Guich, ralf Little has not called for more funding (although i suspect he wants that) he has just pointed out Hunts use of false stats.

I don’t think the NHS needs a fortune throwing at it, and it doesn’t need to be a bottomless pit.

Cutting funding and making it a lot more difficult to train to be a nurse, physio, ODP, OT, radiographer etc is not going to help the NHS unless you want it to fail

Agreed Inchy, but there's more work to do, in addition to getting the people side right.

From someone who saw my Dad’s life ruined after getting MRSA after a routine operation in a NHS hospital, I have no great loyalty to the NHS. We already have a Healthcare system where if you can afford to pay will lead to quicker outcomes.
As long as you don’t have to pay I am not bothered who the Government pays to provide the Healthcare

Dy1geo wrote:We already have a Healthcare system where if you can afford to pay will lead to quicker outcomes.

When it comes to an emergency situation though, private medical cover won't help you. You have to go via the NHS, and they are very good and efficient in that respect.

barba wrote:Healthcare can only ever be one of the following

a) Universal and Affordable but not Good
b) Affordable and Good but not Universal
c) Good and Universal but not Affordable.

Says who?

MRSA is awful and unfortunately affects the private sector as well as the public sector. The USA and Japan suffer from it worse than the NHS.
People assume MRSA is caused by 'dirty' hospitals. That may be a factor but the main factor is the increased use and ineffectiveness of antibiotics.



We don't have a healthcare system where if you can afford to pay it will lead to quicker outcomes. What we have is certain elective procedures which can be done privately without going on a waiting list.

There are no private ambulances that will pick you up if you get knock down by a bus. No A & E services, no acute oncology services, no acute critical care services etc

Sidney1st wrote:This is why I think you're a dick head.

I point out where both parties fail and you ignored it.

Can't be the only reason surely?

Caernarfon_Claret wrote:Health, education and crime are three areas where you need successful long term planning but are all used for short term political gain. All three should be managed by cross party committees (with the chair of the committee being the relevant secretary of state these committees could consult with experts) in order to shift the focus into long term consistency rather than chopping and changing every time there's a new government.

Wanna know how we can get cross-party committees more easily? Proportional representation.

Damo wrote:Can't be the only reason surely?

For this thread yes

I cannot see what the issue is in the Government paying private providers to provide healthcare, after all many hip and knee operations are carried out a Gisburn Park and Wrightington on behalf of the NHS.
The point I was making is that paying for treatment will lead to better outcomes in certain areas, you can see a consultant quicker and bring forward operations rather than waiting for the NHS. Yes there are no ambulances, A&E etc.
We have an NHS and I want it to remain where you don’t have to pay, but the ageing population will bring about even more challenges so changes will have to be made.

I don't see an issue with farming out work to private hospitals, my issue is with people bizarrely thinking this only happens with a Tory government.

Same with zero hour contracts, Labour didn't stop them being handed out, yet it's the Tories who get the most grief for them.

If people stopped trying to sue them, it would save billions in labour/admin costs and get better decision making.

Inchy wrote:MRSA is awful and unfortunately affects the private sector as well as the public sector. The USA and Japan suffer from it worse than the NHS.
People assume MRSA is caused by 'dirty' hospitals. That may be a factor but the main factor is the increased use and ineffectiveness of antibiotics.



We don't have a healthcare system where if you can afford to pay it will lead to quicker outcomes. What we have is certain elective procedures which can be done privately without going on a waiting list.

There are no private ambulances that will pick you up if you get knock down by a bus. No A & E services, no acute oncology services, no acute critical care services etc

Actually, there are private emergency services now.

Sidney1st wrote:I don't see an issue with farming out work to private hospitals, my issue is with people bizarrely thinking this only happens with a Tory government.

Same with zero hour contracts, Labour didn't stop them being handed out, yet it's the Tories who get the most grief for them.

That's because they weren't a huge problem under Labour. They became a huge problem under the Tories and the Tories have chosen to do nothing about them. What makes you think if they became as big a problem under Labour as they are now that no one would be getting on Labour's back?

Also a factor is that Labour promised to end them.

Sidney1st wrote:I don't see an issue with farming out work to private hospitals, my issue is with people bizarrely thinking this only happens with a Tory government.

Same with zero hour contracts, Labour didn't stop them being handed out, yet it's the Tories who get the most grief for them.

New Labour were to blame for a lot of the NHS failures, however at the moment its difficult to blame this labour government for mistakes made by a previous one because they appear so vastly different. Its like blaming May for the sinking for the Belgrano.

I certainly not convinced this labour government would save the NHS but I am sure they wouldn't be actively trying to destroy it

Imploding Turtle wrote:Says who?

Barba. If you look above each comment it says who posted it.

This thread seems an appropriate place to link this.

http://blogs.bmj.com/bmjopen/2017/11/15 ... e7d3edfe5c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Before anyone attacks the headline, read the blog (which provided a brief overview) and, if you wish, the actual study which is linked at the top of the blog.

It was one of the side effects of 'internal competition' that, in the same way it has hurt education providers, led to the current lack of any cohesive policy across the NHS. Once you give 'Trust' status to locality based providers, tell them they are in competition with other localised health providers and then inform them that funding will follow results then you are asking them to choose how they will provide the minimum services that they are told to.

The original intention was that this proviso would spur the Trusts into improving their services to be better than everyone else. In truth, because of spending restrictions from ALL governments, the race has been to not be have the worst set of statistics. It is OK to have a 12 hour wait at A&E as long as another Trust's A&E wait is 12 hours and 1 minute. It is OK to have a 5.00% re-infection rate if the neighbouring Trust has a 5.01% rate. etc, etc, etc.

NHS ranked best healthcare system in the world for the past 3 years running:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are-survey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608253" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All whilst having to operate under the financial reality of the debt and deficitm inherited from Gordon Brown and the PFI disgrace that is still bleeding NHS resources dry.

But, hey! Jeremy Hunt looks stuck up and has a crappy name.

Rowls I think the majority on here have admitted new labour have mismanaged the NHS.

I don’t dislike Hunt because of his name or because he’s stuck up. I dislike him because he is constantly lying through his back teeth.

Even most tories I know think he’s a prat

You'll have to substantiate the lying claim.

In the mean time, the NHS has been found to be best healthcare system in the world three years in a row under Jeremy Hunt.

This is all relative of course but it's a funny way of " deliberately running down" the NHS.

If you read the link in the op you can see where the lying claim comes from. He uses false stats even after he is informed they are false.

I can see what you are doing here. The NHS is still one of the best but it is nothing to do with the way Hunt is running it. Have a read of spirals post. Services are suffering because of his running of the NHS. If the NHS is still one of the best, it won’t be for long if he continues his obsession with making it difficult to recruit more staff

Inchy wrote:If you read the link in the op you can see where the lying claim comes from. He uses false stats even after he is informed they are false.

I can see what you are doing here. The NHS is still one of the best but it is nothing to do with the way Hunt is running it. Have a read of spirals post. Services are suffering because of his running of the NHS. If the NHS is still one of the best, it won’t be for long if he continues his obsession with making it difficult to recruit more staff

"False stats"
"Fake news"

ALL politicians choose the stats they like the best.

A link to the Huffington Post is most certainly not going to prove anything about a Conservative politician.

The funny thing is that Jeremy Hunt was running the NHS for 5 years before* it came top of that award as best healthcare system in the world. That's a strange trajectory to be heading for somebody who is constantly and stupidly accused of "deliberately running down" the NHS.

*edit - I did that from memory but it turns out I was wrong, he was only in charge for 3 years beforehand.

Rowls wrote: In the mean time, the NHS has been found to be best healthcare system in the world three years in a row under Jeremy Hunt.

well it would when you consider the survey is only done once every three years.

Imploding Turtle wrote:That's because they weren't a huge problem under Labour. They became a huge problem under the Tories and the Tories have chosen to do nothing about them. What makes you think if they became as big a problem under Labour as they are now that no one would be getting on Labour's back?

Also a factor is that Labour promised to end them.

Was that promise made when they were in power or as opposition?

As for getting on Labours back, it's shown on here time and again that some people don't really care what Labour did to mess up the NHS .

Inchy wrote:New Labour were to blame for a lot of the NHS failures, however at the moment its difficult to blame this labour government for mistakes made by a previous one because they appear so vastly different. Its like blaming May for the sinking for the Belgrano.

I certainly not convinced this labour government would save the NHS but I am sure they wouldn't be actively trying to destroy it

They aren't actively trying to destroy it.

It needs modernizing.

quoonbeatz wrote:well it would when you consider the survey is only done once every three years.

Fair point.

Meaning the NHS has been top of the world rankings for 6 years in a row under the Conservatives.

https://sciscomedia.co.uk/nhs-systematically-destroyed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This chap can explain it better than I can