The false narrative of unnecessary ground expansion at BFC

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:40 pm

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:I’m not sure whether you’re taking the p1ss there Walton. Why wouldn’t I want to keep my cracking seats that I’ve had for twenty years? Why is it weird?

They could give me free seats in the JHU and I’d decline.

Because it's the family stand, with very generous offers from the club to attract young fans. It's remarkably selfish to want to retain seats in there long after you should have politely been asked to vacate the stand intended for parents and their young children.

If a 60 year old man still ate a Happy Meal on the toadstool chairs at McDonalds, because that's where he was eating them with his kids 20 years ago, he'd be asked to stop being such a weirdo and hanging round the kids area. The same applies with the JMU.

Walt · Post by **Walt** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:58 pm

Is it full in there in terms of season tickets?

I'm a couple of years away yet as my lad is only 3 but at some point I'll want to move my season ticket so I can utilise the option of a free u12 ticket.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:11 pm

Walton wrote:Because it's the family stand, with very generous offers from the club to attract young fans. It's remarkably selfish to want to retain seats in there long after you should have politely been asked to vacate the stand intended for parents and their young children.

If a 60 year old man still ate a Happy Meal on the toadstool chairs at McDonalds, because that's where he was eating them with his kids 20 years ago, he'd be asked to stop being such a weirdo and hanging round the kids area. The same applies with the JMU.

Is it still a family stand though?

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:17 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote:Is it still a family stand though?

Yes, the website says it is

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claretdj · Post by **claretdj** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:35 pm

Walton wrote:Because it's the family stand, with very generous offers from the club to attract young fans. It's remarkably selfish to want to retain seats in there long after you should have politely been asked to vacate the stand intended for parents and their young children.

If a 60 year old man still ate a Happy Meal on the toadstool chairs at McDonalds, because that's where he was eating them with his kids 20 years ago, he'd be asked to stop being such a weirdo and hanging round the kids area. The same applies with the JMU.

I will tell you something Walton, the above is absolutely spot on! I'm a season ticket holder in jmu with my 7 year old son & around us it is filled with people aged 60+ on our row n block there is only me n my son n another guy further along with his young daughter! Everyone else are oap's n should be moved to another stand as it's the family stand n ment to entice future young clarets n parents!

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:43 pm

Trouble is, with current occupation, there aint the space to move into. Hence my post

claretdj · Post by **claretdj** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:50 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:Trouble is, with current occupation, there aint the space to move into. Hence my post

I know pal. But seriously this needs addressing as it's beyond a joke up there! Maybe claret tony n his posse can bring it up @ his next supporters meeting with our supporter liasion officer? The rule should be that only a ticket bought with a child's can only be the way into the jmu with id required for the child's seat.. utc

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:07 pm

What about ‘OAP’s’ who want to sit with their children and grandchildren?

claretdj · Post by **claretdj** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:18 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:What about ‘OAP’s’ who want to sit with their children and grandchildren?

There is non in block 4 where I sit, it's all oap's sat together!

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:26 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:What about ‘OAP’s’ who want to sit with their children and grandchildren?

I am a pensioner and go in there with my son and 3 grandchildre.Do I need to ask for permission from some on here before I go in again.There are a lot of adults in there without kids not just pensioners so don't be ageist.If all adults without kids were moved out the stand would be half empty and don't think there is a waiting list of adults with kids to fill it.

claretdj · Post by **claretdj** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:31 pm

N that's the point, there are a lot of people that go in there without chidren which shouldn't be allowed with it being the family stand.. if you ain't got a child with you then you should be moved!

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:02 pm

claretdj wrote:N that's the point, there are a lot of people that go in there without chidren which shouldn't be allowed with it being the family stand.. if you ain't got a child with you then you should be moved!

When they closed the CFS to Burnley supporters and moved the family stand to the JMU I tried to buy season tickets for myself and son who was then 16.i was honest and said he is 16 and offered to pay adult price but the club wouldn’t let us go in the JMU as it was for families.I said we are a family but they suggested we went in JML instead.After getting p.ssed wet through on a number of occasions I stopped being a season ticket holder for a number of years.If the club starts dictating to fans who have sat in the same seats for many years then I am afraid they will lose a number of them.You would be moving a few thousand out of the JMU and the JHU wings could not accommodate them and the JMU would be half empty as there is not the demand for adults with kids.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:10 pm

If the JM Upper is full so there are no two seats together, so it is impossible to buy child tickets, but there is space in the Long Side - won't the club extend the offer of free tickets? (There won't be space in the Bob Lord - you'd think (to be a bit un-PC) that a fair few Bob Lord patrons each year would reach a stage where they have to give up going, but it didn't seem to happen last year.)

Duffer_ · Post by **Duffer_** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:17 pm

Not all adults with kids want to sit in the family stand for a number of reasons. Personally, I much prefer viewing from the side and I am prepared to forego a free seat for that. Having said that, I am prepared to move up or down a couple of seats/rows if it creates more adjoining seats for newcomers.

A coordinated effort by the club could help but I agree with the sentiment of the OP - we would benefit from a modest increase in capacity.

UTC!

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:18 pm

Walton wrote:Because it's the family stand, with very generous offers from the club to attract young fans. It's remarkably selfish to want to retain seats in there long after you should have politely been asked to vacate the stand intended for parents and their young children.

If a 60 year old man still ate a Happy Meal on the toadstool chairs at McDonalds, because that's where he was eating them with his kids 20 years ago, he'd be asked to stop being such a weirdo and hanging round the kids area. The same applies with the JMU.

The most idiotic thing I have read on here, fans like to sit all over the place for different reasons, I know people who have taken their kids, and grandchildren on there for years, when others have retained seats around them , they renew theirs season tickets because they like the view and the folk around them. You are advocating a system whereby the club dictate where you sit, why not dump the old codgers in the Lower tier of the James Hargreaves with the wanna be hard lads and have done with it !!!!

Walt · Post by **Walt** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:36 am

I'm certainly very sympathetic towards the situation as it's tough when people have had their seat so long.

But whatever the solution, if there is one, needs looking at by the club. Maybe they already have and there isn't an answer.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:57 am

If it’s a family stand then it should remain a family stand regardless. Once you stop buying an adult and child ticket you should really vacates, but I get the argument against if it wasn’t previously the policy.

I could have sworn though that when the CFS first closed to home fans in 1996, those fans were transferred to the JMU? I was in the JMU for a few seasons, but one year we HAD to move to accommodate the family stand. They allowed us to choose seats elsewhere, and even physically go and see our seats (Bob Lord).

A good point further up though about decent seats elsewhere. Because our ground is too small for any fan base growth currently, all the decent seats have gone, so if you move you’ll likely end up with seats you’re unhappy with. People have bought into the rhetoric that a club has to sell out every single game to justify expansion. I think we sell out enough of a proportion of our ground, and with regular enough sell outs, that we should be looking at the next step. Maybe it’s a replacement/extended Bob Lord with another 2,000 seats? Maybe it’s a replacement CFS with rail seating? Or maybe we just continue with the story that we’ll get relegated eventually so what’s the point?

agreenwood · Post by **agreenwood** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:13 am

My house could probably do with modernising and a general face lift, particularly whilst I’m in gainful employment and earning a reasonable wage.

Unfortunately me and the wife have decided not to bother because not every bedroom is occupied.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:07 am

agreenwood wrote:My house could probably do with modernising and a general face lift, particularly whilst I’m in gameful employment and earning a reasonable wage.
Unfortunately me and the wife have decided not to bother because not every bedroom is occupied.

Wow pity you have been driven to go on the game or was it from choice agreenwood.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:42 am

Walton wrote:Because it's the family stand, with very generous offers from the club to attract young fans. It's remarkably selfish to want to retain seats in there long after you should have politely been asked to vacate the stand intended for parents and their young children.

If a 60 year old man still ate a Happy Meal on the toadstool chairs at McDonalds, because that's where he was eating them with his kids 20 years ago, he'd be asked to stop being such a weirdo and hanging round the kids area. The same applies with the JMU.

So you expect me to move to a crappy seat (all the decent ones are taken) when I’ve sat in the same seat for 20 years? Ok, let’s make this fair, we’ll have a lottery, the person being forced to move from the JMU gets to dip his/her hand in a container full of balls labelled with a seat number. If they pick a seat on the wings they have to suck it up. If they pick a seat on the front row of the JHU bang on half way the person who currently has that seat has to move. It could take quite a while to sort out but we’d get there in the end.

This actually won’t affect me anyway, my son can’t come on next season due to work so my granddaughter will be coming on with me. Never the less, moving people out is still a ridiculous suggestion and is easily worked around. Most people have a relative/friend with a child under 22. They can sign them up to keep their seat, even if the child never goes!

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:49 am

I could guarantee walton would detest a great number of seating areas on the turf, and I would also guarantee he wouldnt accept being made to sit in them against his better jusdgement for an entire season either.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:59 am

I had my say further up the post, however, perhaps the club should expand the ground in some way so that those who get obsessed with seeing empty seats at the Etihad, Emirates etc. can obsess about Turf Moor --better to keep it in house.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:03 am

As someone without a season ticket I'd agree with the gist of the first post. If you're looking at a ticket for more than one person you're pretty often left looking at the front few rows of the JML or the front of the JHL in the wings. It isn't just a matter of we aren't selling out every week so we don't need any new seats, there also needs to be some consideration on whether the seats that are available are attractive to those that we're trying to entice in.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:59 am

For the Bournemouth game in over 2 months' time, there are just 6 pairs of seats together in the whole family stand.

That's not good enough.

Ship the dead wood out (ie those not qualifying for the parent/child tickets) and have it as a true family stand again.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:20 pm

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:So you expect me to move to a crappy seat (all the decent ones are taken) when I’ve sat in the same seat for 20 years?

I'd expect anyone not fulfilling the requirements for purchasing a ticket there to move, yes.

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PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:23 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:For the Bournemouth game in over 2 months' time, there are just 6 pairs of seats together in the whole family stand.

That's not good enough.

Ship the dead wood out (ie those not qualifying for the parent/child tickets) and have it as a true family stand again.

Are you going to give up your seat for the deadwood to go into and move to the crap seats yourself? If they made it a condition when you first buy your seat then fair enough, people have a choice of which stand to sit in. Can’t move people now because all the decent seats are taken. If you’re prepared to move to the wings to allow me to have your seat then I’ll consider it, if not, mind your own business.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:24 pm

To clarify:
I support moving groups where there are no longer any U18's away from the family stand.
I also acknowledge that to do so, there would have to be attractive seats for them to move to.
To this end, we need a development of the nature of a 2nd tier on the Bob Lord, with first refusal given to those relocated from the JMU, as they were given when they were moved from the CFS back in the day.

It won't happen overnight, but this would deliver:
1)More choice and availablity for adults and kids in the JMU
2)A better view for JMU ST holders who now don't have any kids in their group (subsidised for that 1st season)
3) Capacity for 2 blocks for walk ons enabling casual fans to sit together, and who knows, maybe "get the bug" and become ST holders
4) Capacity for a dedicated "community block"

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:26 pm

Walton wrote:I'd expect anyone not fulfilling the requirements for purchasing a ticket there to move, yes.

Screenshot_20180305-121656.png

That’s fine, if and when my grandchild doesn’t come on anymore I’ll find another child to get a free ticket for. They may not use it but at least I can keep my seat.

Again I ask, are you prepared to give up your seat? No? Didn’t think so.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:28 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:To clarify:
I support moving groups where there are no longer any U18's away from the family stand.
I also acknowledge that to do so, there would have to be attractive seats for them to move to.
To this end, we need a development of the nature of a 2nd tier on the Bob Lord, with first refusal given to those relocated from the JMU, as they were given when they were moved from the CFS back in the day.

It won't happen overnight, but this would deliver:
1)More choice and availablity for adults and kids in the JMU
2)A better view for JMU ST holders who now don't have any kids in their group (subsidised for that 1st season)
3) Capacity for 2 blocks for walk ons enabling casual fans to sit together, and who knows, maybe "get the bug" and become ST holders
4) Capacity for a dedicated "community block"

I’d be happy to consider moving providing I had the choice of a reasonable seat.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:35 pm

FAO: Mike Garlick

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:36 pm

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:That’s fine, if and when my grandchild doesn’t come on anymore I’ll find another child to get a free ticket for. They may not use it but at least I can keep my seat.

Again I ask, are you prepared to give up your seat? No? Didn’t think so.

I'm already giving up my seat for next season (in the Cricket Field), as I've missed a lot of games over the last few years for family reasons.

If you use the ticket to take a kid on, then that's fine, fair enough, that's what the stand is for. The issue people have is where there are tickets being bought despite not taking kids on with them.

In a couple of years, and with a bit of luck, hopefully I'll be able to take my two kids on to the Turf with me. As it stands, I can't do that, and UpTheBeehole's post about the Bournemouth game is a case in point. I wouldn't be able to as there are barely any seats together.

That's why the club need to enforce the rules and make sure the family stand caters for families, and not middle-aged blokes and their mid 20s 'kids'

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:38 pm

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:I’d be happy to consider moving providing I had the choice of a reasonable seat.

Hence the OP - we need more good seats.

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:45 pm

Safe standing in the cricket field end..

If the boblord or cricket field is redone, I'd be devastated if they made them two tiered. One tier all the way down is so much better!

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:46 pm

I'd like someone to raise the sentiment of this thread the next time Mike Garlick trots out his mantra of "we dont sell out so we don't need to expand".

Its a lazy, high level viewpoint that simply does not recognise, reflect, or address the reality and depth of the issue

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:47 pm

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:That’s fine, if and when my grandchild doesn’t come on anymore I’ll find another child to get a free ticket for. They may not use it but at least I can keep my seat.

This reads as an abuse of the system for selfish gains.

What a bell.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:47 pm

CoolClaret wrote:Safe standing in the cricket field end..

If the boblord or cricket field is redone, I'd be devastated if they made them two tiered. One tier all the way down is so much better!

My dream would be:
2 tier Bob Lord so as many seats are as close to the pitch as possible, keeping it tight to the pitch.
Kop style single tier stand replacing the CFS with rail seating

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:51 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:This reads as an abuse of the system for selfish gains.

What a bell.

Well let’s not guarantee your seat every year. Let everybody put down how many seats they want together before the season starts then do a lottery so that one season you may have a great seat, the next a crap one.

Are you prepared to do that if it could be made to work. I am, I’m just not prepared to be shafted to a crap seat for the rest of time!!

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:07 pm

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:Well let’s not guarantee your seat every year. Let everybody put down how many seats they want together before the season starts then do a lottery so that one season you may have a great seat, the next a crap one.

Are you prepared to do that if it could be made to work. I am, I’m just not prepared to be shafted to a crap seat for the rest of time!!

Don't move to a crap seat then.

I've sat all over the ground, with the exception of the JMU (because it's a family stand and inappropriate for grown men to be going in there unaccompanied by children). I've had great seats that I've given up. I've had some poor seats, which we've then contacted the club and moved to much better seats.

I go in the Bob Lord with my dad some games, I've been in the JML with mates. I've sat in JHU and JHL with family and mates, and then me and my group of mates moved to the CFS because that's where the atmosphere was.

I think your actual issue is that you're unwilling to pay the extra to sit in the appropriate stand for an old bloke, such as the Bob Lord. You'd rather swindle the club out of valuable ticket money by claiming free tickets you have no intention of using, just so you can sit in a certain seat. You'd rather make it difficult for young families to start supporting Burnley because you're too selfish.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:18 pm

Couple of points

- We don't need a bigger ground. We just don't, we do not have the fan base (especially if we go down)

- We shouldn't do anything to the ground until the decision is made on safe standing. If we can have it, then the Cricket field needs to standing all the way along it with the away fans put somewhere else (JHL possibly?)

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:21 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:- We don't need a bigger ground. We just don't, we do not have the fan base (especially if we go down)

We do, read the thread, and look at what is now available, as i asked.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:24 pm

I don't agree. We do not have the fan base.

You want a season ticket in a decent seat.

You'll be able to get that if we get relegated absolutely no problem.

Just look down the road at the folly of building big grounds for no reason.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:26 pm

Or you could look at Brighton who were in league One when they built a big stadium, and have just beaten Arsenal in the Premier League. They have packed the place out since it was built

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:28 pm

DCWat wrote:I don’t disagree with building further back on the Bob Lord. On face value it would seem a good idea to add standard and corporate seats as well as removing the pillars.

Do we know that it’s actually feasible without replacing the whole thing? Even if it is, what is the lifespan of the current BL stand and is it long enough to add to it?

I’d love a larger Bob Lord, in a traditional style, with a far grander frontage.

Here here. Totalĺy agree

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:30 pm

Brighton has the advantage of being in an area which is a bit light on big teams and has a much bigger population.

Trust me, Rovers spent a fortune advertising up here in North Lancs to get fans when they were good, and I don't think it made enough of a difference.

We'll get the majority of the kids growing up around East Lancs and elsewhere supporting us because we are the biggest team in the area now, but we won't be rocking much bigger crowds unless we get even better (and we are 7th, and still only just sell out)

Maybe fill in the corners? But even that I don't think we need.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:33 pm

Sussex was light on big teams and had a similar population when Brighton were getting similar gates to us at the time at the Goldstone. They then had very limited capacity for a time, which would kill many clubs' fanbases off, but they came back with a huge stadium and a family focus.

They've packed it out ever since.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:38 pm

Sorry UTB, the potential fanbase in terms of pop and area is bigger than ours.

We are competing with City, United, Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Everton, Liverpool, Rovers, PNE and others in ours.

They are competing with, well, Palace to the North? Crawley I think but thats it (obv the closer to London then all those clubs come into it)

Its a big lure being the only club in that area.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:39 pm

How many games have we sold out this season? Genuinely don't know.

As for the 'family' stand, that's not much of an issue. I've taken my kids in all parts of the ground. Apart from maybe the CFS (which is great in its own way), I'd say they're all pretty family friendly these days. Didn't most of us grow up on the Longside anyway.

Sausage · Post by **Sausage** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:47 pm

I wonder how many people, like me, have decided not to buy tickets because they can't get two or three together. On numerous occasions this season, I've decided against getting tickets for me and my Burnley-mad seven year old boy because I couldn't get two tickets together. On Saturday I managed to get tickets sat directly behind my lad in the JMU but there were scores of unoccupied seats around me so we actually managed to sit together. I suspect the arctic weather kept a few people away, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the vacant seats were evidence of the current ticketing system being abused.

Long story short - if there are adult JMU season ticket holders with fictional season ticket holding children, surely the data is available from the computerised turnstiles and the club can act accordingly. Until then, we're going to continue to have technical sellouts whereby there are still empty seats in the stadium.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:47 pm

Sussex population = 1.6m, whiuch they share with Crawley (though they didn't in the Goldstone Ground days). Population of Brighton & Hove = 289,000.

Population of Lancashire (excl. Manchester & Liverpool) = 1.5m, which we share with Preston, Blackpool, Fleetwood, Accrington, Morecambe, and Blackburn. Population of Burnley Borough = 87,500.

They're not directly comparable. Just because Brighton can sell an extra 10,000 tickets doesn't mean that we could.

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:04 pm

Lets assume we kick out all the adults with no kids from JMU.Lets say about 2,000.Lets assume there .aren't enough adults and kids to replace them as there doesn't appear to be a waiting list.We now have a surplus of 2,000 seats in JMU.We play one of the big teams and there is a large demand for tickets.What do we do about the empty seats in JMU?Adults only aren't allowed don't forget.