The false narrative of unnecessary ground expansion at BFC

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:07 pm

dsr wrote:Sussex population = 1.6m, whiuch they share with Crawley (though they didn't in the Goldstone Ground days). Population of Brighton & Hove = 289,000.

Population of Lancashire (excl. Manchester & Liverpool) = 1.5m, which we share with Preston, Blackpool, Fleetwood, Accrington, Morecambe, and Blackburn. Population of Burnley Borough = 87,500.

They're not directly comparable. Just because Brighton can sell an extra 10,000 tickets doesn't mean that we could.

We could nearly 10 years ago

Espia · Post by **Espia** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:17 pm

What's all the fuss about who you sit next to. I thought you go to watch a game not jabber all day long to your mates next to you. What's wrong with just passing comment with the people next to you if you feel the need, and then meeting up with everyone you'd gone with at half time , to exchange banter/viewpoints or whatever.

As a kid I was sent down to squeeze into a gap on the fence. I had no idea where my Dad was apart from standing in the crowd somewhere behind me up the terracing.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:18 pm

Well, thats the end of this discussion.

I sit with my lad, and he got his when we were rubbish.

When we are rubbish, there will be no problem getting seats together.

While we are currently amazing, there is an issue in certain parts of the ground but I've never had a problem moving mine and getting an extra seat in the JHU whenever my other lad wants to come.

It won't be the best seats (in the wings) but I can get them.

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:18 pm

1) Thanks mods.
2) Lets keep this civil and sensible now eh?

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:33 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:All well and good, however, when, or if, relegation happens we revert to around 13000 average.
Add to that the fact that there are quite a number of fans who are moaning now about the style of football etc and threatening non-attendance in the future.
Nothing worse than a half empty stadium.

I haven't noticed anyone threatening non-attendance because of style. And I notice you are a 'stadium half empty' person.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:43 pm

Jimscho wrote:Lets assume we kick out all the adults with no kids from JMU.Lets say about 2,000.Lets assume there .aren't enough adults and kids to replace them as there doesn't appear to be a waiting list.We now have a surplus of 2,000 seats in JMU.We play one of the big teams and there is a large demand for tickets.What do we do about the empty seats in JMU?Adults only aren't allowed don't forget.

Adults can buy single tickets in there.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:07 pm

houseboy wrote:I haven't noticed anyone threatening non-attendance because of style. And I notice you are a 'stadium half empty' person.

You obviously haven't been reading some of the after match comments on here.
I am always a glass half full person and just see it as it is.
I have been going on the Turf now for 67 seasons, saw the Longside come into being and witnessed all the developments since. I have stood in a crowd of over 50000 in 1960 and stood with the valiant 3000 or so who graced us with their presencein the mid 1980s. having travelled round trips of over 500 miles for the privilege.
I stick with my view that there is nothing worse than a stadium half full! Actually, there is ---think about it being one tenth full and you will get the picture.

I am not against them expanding because it isn't my money they will be spending. I just point out that we have a hard core of around 12000 fans who will attend whilst we are in the top two divisions and possibly even in the third tier for a while ---hence a 'stadium half empty' but I shall still be there with my glass half full ---except if they introduce VAR at all football!

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:20 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Adults can buy single tickets in there.

Not if all adults without kids have been kicked out which is what people were advocating.You then have a black hole you can't fill on big match days and most others to be fair.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:34 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:You obviously haven't been reading some of the after match comments on here.
I am always a glass half full person and just see it as it is.
I have been going on the Turf now for 67 seasons, saw the Longside come into being and witnessed all the developments since. I have stood in a crowd of over 50000 in 1960 and stood with the valiant 3000 or so who graced us with their presencein the mid 1980s. having travelled round trips of over 500 miles for the privilege.
I stick with my view that there is nothing worse than a stadium half full! Actually, there is ---think about it being one tenth full and you will get the picture.

I am not against them expanding because it isn't my money they will be spending. I just point out that we have a hard core of around 12000 fans who will attend whilst we are in the top two divisions and possibly even in the third tier for a while ---hence a 'stadium half empty' but I shall still be there with my glass half full ---except if they introduce VAR at all football!

I was joking a bit mate. You've been going there longer than I have and that takes some doing. I must admit that I can't read all the comments on here but I genuinely haven't seen a comment of the kind you were talking about but if you've seen them I believe you. The half-empty stadium thing was just a pun.

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:43 pm

One of my neighbours who took her 2 sons to watch us play against Wolves 2 years ago, kids loved it and that season we went up, the lads badgered her for season tickets and by the time she gave in ALL season tickets in the Family stand had gone.
As a parent with 2 young children aged 6 and 9, she obviously would have preferred to have ST's in the family stand so didn't feel comfortable committing to seats in another part of the ground.

Sadly, they are now ST holders at Bradford City so opportunity missed to snare Claret fans of the future!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:47 pm

Good for them.

My kid has been with me in the JHU since he was six, with no issues.

All I've read on this thread to be perfectly honest is people wanting a 21,000 capacity football stadium, a premier league football team and about 17000 other Burnley fans to respond to their own requirements.

When we inevitably become rubbish again, or people get bored of the the premier league slog, then ticket chances will become available.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:When we inevitably become rubbish again, or people get bored of the the premier league slog, then ticket chances will become available.

It would be nice if we could take the period when we are good to ensnare some fans for when we become rubbish again though.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:02 pm

Can we get back to the previous main discussion, ie the family stand should be for families?

It's a really poor do that the designated family stand has been allowed to be diluted this way, and I doubt other clubs would be so lax to let it happen.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:04 pm

houseboy wrote:I was joking a bit mate. You've been going there longer than I have and that takes some doing. I must admit that I can't read all the comments on here but I genuinely haven't seen a comment of the kind you were talking about but if you've seen them I believe you. The half-empty stadium thing was just a pun.

No problem, just that the only thing ever half empty with me these days is my head!! ---mind you I know enough to find my way to the Turf!!

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:12 pm

Walton wrote:Can we get back to the previous main discussion, ie the family stand should be for families?

It's a really poor do that the designated family stand has been allowed to be diluted this way, and I doubt other clubs would be so lax to let it happen.

As a matter of interest, when was the stand actually designated as a family stand? I don't know the answer, however, whenever that was, was when that should have been addressed if there were people who had been sat in there for years.
We are now left with a situation which, whatever is done, is going to alienate some fans.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:20 pm

Clarinet, think about what you just posted and have a word with yourself eh?

You are giving him exactly what he wants by talking about it.

Aggi, yes, that is true but we don't sell out the home ends unless the big clubs come calling.

I'm a bit cynical about fans stories of inabilities to get tickets when the likes of WBA and Stoke rock into town.

We do need some clarification on safe standing, because (as I've already said) it would be daft to do stuff until we know when that is going to be allowed.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:24 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:As a matter of interest, when was the stand actually designated as a family stand? I don't know the answer, however, whenever that was, was when that should have been addressed if there were people who had been sat in there for years.
We are now left with a situation which, whatever is done, is going to alienate some fans.

I thought it had always been the family stand, since it was built.

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:32 pm

Walton wrote:Can we get back to the previous main discussion, ie the family stand should be for families?

It's a really poor do that the designated family stand has been allowed to be diluted this way, and I doubt other clubs would be so lax to let it happen.

I will repeat what I said earlier for your benefit and perhaps you will answer the question.Genuine question.

If we kick out all adults without kids and you could be talking a couple of thousand or so.There are many around where I sit.You will not fill the gap left with families.There does not seem to be a waiting list of families for season tickets in there.As there is then a black hole how do you fill that for matches where there is a near sell ou? Adults without kids would not then be able to buy those seats.

PutTheWheelieBinsOut · Post by **PutTheWheelieBinsOut** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:38 pm

The Bob Lord stand is 45 years old, the Cricketfield is nearly 50 years old. You fix the roof when the sun is shining, it's not a complicated analogy. Forget the corner monstrosities which have been forced on the club by the Premier League. There is clearly money available. I think we all can agree that the current board members care about the clubs future, so in my view the current board don't see Turf Moor as the future of BFC or they are waiting for some kind of takeover, their inaction speaks volumes.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:41 pm

You would fill the gaps with families, because for every 1 adult 3 places can be filled by a family for not much money. There have been contributions on this thread along those lines.

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:53 pm

Walton wrote:You would fill the gaps with families, because for every 1 adult 3 places can be filled by a family for not much money. There have been contributions on this thread along those lines.

Don’t believe you would fill the gap with families.Just my opinion and you would therefore have big empty spaces in there on match days.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:00 pm

Jimscho wrote:Don’t believe you would fill the gap with families.Just my opinion and you would therefore have big empty spaces in there on match days.

My opinion is that you're wrong.

The family stand would be filled with families, as intended.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:00 pm

Crikey, it is looking like we are going to have our third, not thirteenth consecutive season in the Prem League. To consider the cost of re-development of the CF or BL stands now would IMO be unwise. 1) neither could be done in a close season-so quite a lot of ST holder would be without a seat-and knowing our supporters never seen again 2) by the time any stand is finished we could be back in the Championship 3) money spent will mean less to put on the field of play and some of us remember the Martin Dobson aka BL stand funds.
At the moment we are making a few bob each season- no doubt when there is enough spare built up, without denying Sean money for the squad, we could look at redeveloping the CF stand.
Given what has been spent on the BL side I think it is there for sometime to come. I have no idea whether the foundations would permit a second tier on it but I have my doubts

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:10 pm

Walton wrote:My opinion is that you're wrong.

The family stand would be filled with families, as intended.

I will beg to differ and leave it at that.Good luck with filling the gap with families.They aren’t queueing up at the moment.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:16 pm

Jimscho wrote:I will beg to differ and leave it at that.Good luck with filling the gap with families.They aren’t queueing up at the moment.

And what is your evidence of this?

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:34 pm

Walton wrote:And what is your evidence of this?

Nearly always last stand to sell out on big matches.Whats your evidence that there are enough families to fill a big gap and it would be a big gap.I have my opinion you have yours but I don’t know where your families are coming from.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:37 pm

The JMU often sells out quickly for big games, it's the CFS, JML and JHL where the spare seats usually are.

claretdj · Post by **claretdj** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:40 pm

It's usually the last stand to sell out because you can't get 2 seats together in there because of all the oap's in there..

Jimscho · Post by **Jimscho** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:46 pm

You will have hundreds of gaps in there if you kick out all the non-family adults that you won’t fill.Dont know why I am arguing it doesn’t affect me I go in there with 3 grandsons.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:49 pm

Jimscho wrote:You will have hundreds of gaps in there if you kick out all the non-family adults that you won’t fill.Dont know why I am arguing it doesn’t affect me I go in there with 3 grandsons.

Hundreds of gaps is nothing when say a grandad can take his 3 grandsons on with the room created

Duffer_ · Post by **Duffer_** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:14 pm

Does it have to be a full tier exclusively for families? Would a designated area based on predicted demand do the job?

If we want to maximise useful capacity then there will have to be some displacement. Should supporters receiving "free" kids STs be the first to be asked to move? Ironically this would include those 'playing the game'. Is it fair to ask full price ST holders to move to accommodate free/discounted ST holders?

I don't have a perfect solution but the current mess has evolved over time and is creating dysfunctional behaviour. None more so than adults denying other supporters a seat by getting a seat that they have no intention of ever using.

UTC!

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:11 pm

Walton wrote:The JMU often sells out quickly for big games, it's the CFS, JML and JHL where the spare seats usually are.

Isn't that the point? The people who would buy season tickets aren't the ones who only go on for big games. Season ticket holders go on to the "little" games as well.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:34 pm

of course they do, and as a consequence pour in thousands of pounds guaranteed every season

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:43 pm

and whilst on the subject, the club have a no tolerance approach to all manner of inappropriate behaviour throughout , what exactly differentiates the four sections as to warrant three as family unfriendly?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Aggi, yes, that is true but we don't sell out the home ends unless the big clubs come calling.

Just looking at my purchase history I ended up in the front row of the JML for Stoke as I was buying some tickets together and that's all you could get. It might not sell out but if you want to go to the game with friends/family and not buy a month in advance you have limited choices.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:14 am

I'm just old fashioned when it comes to football.
1: I'd gladly have Turf Moor as it was 50 years ago if we were competing at the top of the PL on a regular basis. Investment on the field every time for me. I am old enough to remember the completion of the 'Martin Dobson Stand' and no good came of it.
2: When, exactly, did football ever become a 'family' game. It never was. The joy of going to a football match to enjoy the game, vent your spleen and swear your bloody head off was much of the fun. As far as I am concerned you take your son, daughter, sister, wife to a game of football and they take the rough with the smooth. Family stand? Why?

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:40 am

dsr wrote:Isn't that the point? The people who would buy season tickets aren't the ones who only go on for big games. Season ticket holders go on to the "little" games as well.

Sorry where are you coming from on this? Have you been reading the thread?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:01 am

Walton wrote:Sorry where are you coming from on this? Have you been reading the thread?

And understanding it too. You say that there is evidence that season tickets would sell to families if adults were cleared out of the JMU, because the big matches sell out quickly. I am saying that if (by your implication) the less big matches do not sell out quickly, then that's evidence that there isn't a large number of families want to buy season tickets, because if there was they'd be buying the tickets for those games too.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:04 am

houseboy wrote: 2: When, exactly, did football ever become a 'family' game. It never was. The joy of going to a football match to enjoy the game, vent your spleen and swear your bloody head off was much of the fun. As far as I am concerned you take your son, daughter, sister, wife to a game of football and they take the rough with the smooth. Family stand? Why?

I sit in the JMU with my kids because when the weather is crap it's usually the driest place to sit

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:16 am

dsr wrote:And understanding it too. You say that there is evidence that season tickets would sell to families if adults were cleared out of the JMU, because the big matches sell out quickly. I am saying that if (by your implication) the less big matches do not sell out quickly, then that's evidence that there isn't a large number of families want to buy season tickets, because if there was they'd be buying the tickets for those games too.

No, because for season tickets, an adult can buy their full priced ticket, then purchase 2 children's tickets for £50, as the second is free.

That's the deal for the FAMILY stand.

That deal isn't available on an individual match basis, hence why it's vital that the stand be returned to its stated designation of being a family stand, so FAMILIES can purchase season tickets there.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:20 am

Sidney1st wrote:I sit in the JMU with my kids because when the weather is crap it's usually the driest place to sit

Hey nothing wrong with dry mate. It's good that you are taking your kids to games and bringing in new support, goodness knows we need it.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:21 am

Walton wrote:No, because for season tickets, an adult can buy their full priced ticket, then purchase 2 children's tickets for £50, as the second is free.

That's the deal for the FAMILY stand.

That deal isn't available on an individual match basis, hence why it's vital that the stand be returned to its stated designation of being a family stand, so FAMILIES can purchase season tickets there.

It'd be easier to extend family packages to other parts of the ground, except maybe the CFS, they're all family friendly these days as has been said. It doesn't affect me, I've always gone in the Longside Upper with mine but it'd cause a hell of a lot of bad feeling telling folk to move now.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:27 am

It's always been a family stand though, that's where all the quid a kid deals were for in the 90s, it shouldn't have been the case that non-family groups of adults were allowed to buy tickets there.

The current requirements are that to purchase an adult season ticket in there, it has to be bought with a junior ticket. That should be applied properly, as it's clear that it isn't currently

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:39 am

Rule R7 of the Premier League Rules states:

Each Club shall provide an area of its stadium for the exclusive use of family groups and junior supporters.

BFC appear to be in breach of that.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:41 am

Just checking, do we have any evidence of people doing this with the family stand?

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:47 am

I've just had a go at adding 2 adult tickets for the Leicester game, and it's letting me proceed to checkout with them.

That suggests the Family area at the Turf is breaching the ' exclusive use' rule.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:51 am

Thats not good, but I was looking more at the claim that people are buying an adult and a child ticket and not using the child ticket just to sit in the family stand.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:55 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thats not good, but I was looking more at the claim that people are buying an adult and a child ticket and not using the child ticket just to sit in the family stand.

PaintYorkClaret&Blue was quite blatant in stating his intention to do this in order to retain his seat

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:59 am

Isn't he there with his grand daughter though? (apologies if I read it wrong)

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:02 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Isn't he there with his grand daughter though? (apologies if I read it wrong)

Read post 78 in response to me