Ireland to vote on abortions

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Fri May 25, 2018 10:42 am

Hoping that they can repeal the 8th amendment today that will allow women to have abortions.

It's incredibly insane that abortions are illegal.

Geoff · Post by **Geoff** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:02 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:Hoping that they can repeal the 8th amendment today that will allow women to have abortions.

It's incredibly insane that abortions are illegal.

Incredibly insane, eh?

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:02 am

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:05 am

#RepealThe8th

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:05 am

I think it should be a right, but my personal opinion (as someone who has two kids) that I don't think I could terminate as I know what they grow up into.

But I'm not going to tell someone else that they can't, nor would I criticize if they choose to have one.

So yes, repeal the 8th

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:18 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I don't think I could terminate as I know what they grow up into.

Also, because you're a fella!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:22 am

There is that as well!

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:26 am

The problem with the 8th is that it is a 'catch all'....for example, even if you are raped you can not get an abortion. You get a longer sentence for attempting an abortion than raping someone.....that's wrong.

For whatever reason a girl decides to do this that is their decision....rightly or wrongly...

#Repealthe8th

edison · Post by **edison** » Fri May 25, 2018 12:21 pm

My Twitter feed is full of Yes voters and suggests Yes will win. My twitter feed also made me think Clinton would beat Trump and Remain would win. I know Twitter is not a good indicator of public opinion - but whatever my feed suggests, the opposite always happens.

edison · Post by **edison** » Fri May 25, 2018 12:22 pm

Ireland is weird. Northern Ireland is just plain nuts. I think I'm allowed to say that, yes?

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Fri May 25, 2018 12:35 pm

This is a law that is influenced by the Catholic Church presumably?

Would a yes vote Neva sign that religion is becoming less influential and that people are willing to put common sense over the views of the church?

And would that be a bad thing?

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Fri May 25, 2018 12:49 pm

Yes Yes Yes just ashamed I can only vote once , but will be later on this evening .

So hope the Yes vote gets it .

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Fri May 25, 2018 12:52 pm

Tribesman, forgive my ignorance on this but I believe a Yes win today does not mean that the Government WILL repeal, it just paves the way for it to.....

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 1:11 pm

Think aborting kids is a bit messed up.
Imo, only if there is a direct health risk to the mother/or the mother was raped etc.

Aborting because of a mistake? Feels wrong to me... Real wrong.

claret59 · Post by **claret59** » Fri May 25, 2018 2:53 pm

Every abortion involves the death of a small human being. To achieve this death involves a killing and to get this killing someone has to do it.
If the unborn child was allowed a 'choice' would it vote for its own death?

Abortion is illegal even in this country. Its just a moment in time that decides its legality (unless of course the unborn child is considered to be disabled, in which case it can be legally killed up to the moment of birth.)

Some pressure group will soon be pushing for the disabled to be killed after they are born, as already happens in some countries.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:05 pm

I’m no fan of abortion but do believe in freedom of choice.
An unwanted pregnancy can screw up 3 lives and associates.
Vote YES.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:05 pm

Yeah, I did wonder until this thread reached "batshit mental".

Peaked here I suspect

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:17 pm

I agree with abortions in some circumstances, but not as a form of contraception, also think the limit should be a lot lower, no need for it to be nearly 6 months.

edison · Post by **edison** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:19 pm

claretandy wrote:I agree with abortions in some circumstances, but not as a form of contraception, also think the limit should be a lot lower, no need for it to be nearly 6 months.

A bit of a dramatic form of contraception. Like honestly who thinks, given all the choices there are for contraception,`I think I'll go with abortions'?

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:26 pm

I do not believe in it being illegal but I do think the state (including ours) should do far more to highlight the long term trauma to the biological parents that abortion can cause, and the benefits of adoption instead to the child (obviously, seeing as they will alive) and to the mental well being of the biological parents. I believe biological parents should be forced to sit through an hour’s explanation of this before a clinic terminates a pregnancy, so they can clearly understand the ramifications.

Not feeling like being able to cope, or worse, making a life choice are reasons for abortion in most cases, but a life has still been created and adoption can lead to a lot of happiness. Abortion can lead to the exact opposite.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:26 pm

edison wrote:A bit of a dramatic form of contraception. Like honestly who thinks, given all the choices there are for contraception,`I think I'll go with abortions'?

Lots and lots of people end up doing that.

I read somewhere that the average number of abortions for all the women who have had at least one is something crazy like 6 or 7 in the UK. There is a hardcore of women who use abortions as contraception. Mainly women with a lot of other problems in their lives (namely drugs and the associated ills).

It is not a case of them thinking "I'll go with abortions"; it is a case of them not thinking and consequently having to do something after the event.

You and I and all the other nice middle class people might like to imagine that this just never happens but it does. It is commonplace.

Coupled with that, the laws on abortions in the UK and barely if ever adhered to and abortions are rubber stamped for all kinds of reasons which are, in fact, illegal.

For example, The Daily Telegraph investigation into abortions a few years ago showed how easy it was for an Asian woman to get doctors to approve her abortion because her child was female and therefore not wanted. Despite all the evidence they gathered no prosecutions were made. That was a truly shocking decision by the CPS.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:28 pm

The NHS “spends £1m a week on repeat abortions”, the Daily Mail reported.

The newspaper claimed that single women are using terminations “as another form of contraceptive”, and that some will have “seven, eight or even as many as nine terminations in their lifetime”.

The Mail’s coverage seems to be a response to a request for data on repeat abortions that was made in parliament in April 2012. The article appears to draw on 2010 abortion statistics available from a Department of Health report. The annual report provides data on the number of abortions (medically termed “termination of pregnancy”) performed in the UK, and includes a section on repeat abortions.

Despite the Daily Mail’s headline, the report does not provide any data or information on women’s reasons or motivations for seeking an abortion. The “abortion as contraception” claim appears to be an interpretation of the data provided by campaign groups and abortion legislation critics. Also, the data suggest that only a tiny fraction of abortions were in women who have had seven or more previous abortions – 85 procedures out of the 189,574 performed in 2010.

What is a repeat abortion?
Much as the term implies, a repeat abortion is an abortion in a woman who has had one or more previous abortions. The Department of Health has recorded the rate of repeat abortions for many years, and includes a section on repeat abortions in its annual report on abortion statistics.

How many repeat abortions are happening each year?
According to the Department of Health’s abortion statistics report, in 2010 there were 189,574 abortions in England and Wales (data are available on residents of England and Wales only). Approximately 64,445 (34%) of these were repeat abortions. The percentage of repeat abortions was found to increase with age: 8% of those under 18 years old had a repeat abortion compared with 44% of women over the age of 35. While it may initially seem puzzling why older women have more repeat abortions, a logical, cumulative effect of ageing is responsible. Put simply, the longer a woman has been alive, the greater time she has had to undergo a repeat abortion.

The Department of Health report also provides data on the percentage of abortions that are repeat abortions in women aged under 25. In 2010 in England and Wales, this figure was 24.8%, with the figure varying across difference primary care trusts (range 15% to 41%).

The Department of Health reports that “repeat unintended pregnancy and subsequent abortion is a complex issue associated with increased age”, as increasing age allows for a longer time at risk for becoming pregnant.

Are repeat abortions increasing?
Full sets of annual data have so far been published up to 2010, with figures for 2011 scheduled for publication in the near future. Between 2000 and 2010, there was a small rise in the number of total abortions, up from 175,542 to 189,574. The 2010 figure was, however, slightly lower than the peak number seen in 2007, when there were 198,499 abortions.

The Department of Health data also indicate that the proportion of all abortions that are considered repeat abortions has increased from 30% to 34% since 2000. In absolute terms, this was estimated to equate to 52,663 repeat abortions in 2000 and 64,445 in 2010.

Why have these figures come to light now?
It is not immediately clear from the Mail’s coverage why these figures are making headlines today. On April 16 2012, the Labour MP Diane Abbot asked the secretary of state for health to provide estimates on the number of repeat abortions performed in 2010, 2011 and 2012. She asked that these figures be provided based on the marital status and age of the women across each primary care trust.

However, as abortion figures are published a year in arrears, the 2012 figures will not be published until 2013. Also, the 2011 figures are not scheduled for official publication until the end of May 2012, meaning that only figures up to 2010 are available at this time. The House of Commons website also reports that the 2010 statistics provide information on the number of repeat abortions by age, but not marital status. The Daily Mail, however, quoted statistics based on both age and marital status, and it is unclear how these have been derived.

Is abortion used as a ‘form of contraception’?
In the UK, abortion is legal if one of several conditions apply:

continuing the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the woman
termination of the pregnancy is required to prevent serious permanent injury to the woman
the pregnancy has not gone beyond 24 weeks, and continuing would involve risk to the physical or mental health of the woman, greater than if the pregnancy was terminated
the pregnancy has not gone beyond 24 weeks, and continuing would involve risk to the physical or mental health of any existing children, greater than if the pregnancy was terminated
there is a significant risk that the child would suffer physical or mental abnormalities leading to serious handicap
emergency situations to save the life of the woman
emergency situations to prevent serious permanent injury to the woman
The Department of Health report on abortion statistics provides information on which of these conditions applies to each registered abortion. It does not, however, provide any specific data on the reasons why women decided to seek an abortion. The idea that abortion is used “as contraception”, as reported in the Daily Mail, appears to be an interpretation of the abortion statistics data by critics of the current legislation, with the newspaper quoting pro-life campaign groups and critics of current abortion legislation.

Who can give advice about reproductive health and contraception?
People seeking advice on reproductive health and contraception can speak with their GP or a community family planning clinic. GUM (genitourinary medicine) clinics, which are often located in hospitals, can also provide contraceptive services and sexual health advice. For younger adults in particular, voluntary organisations such as Brook advisory centres also provide a wide range of sexual health services.

https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-a ... 92.article

edison · Post by **edison** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:29 pm

Retrospective? Does that include morning after pills etc?

edison · Post by **edison** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:30 pm

The Daily Mail `reported'. The newspaper `claimed'. The Mail’s coverage `seems'. The article `appears'

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:36 pm

As UpTheBeehole has posted - repeat abortions are prevalent.

Whether you approve of them or not, it is clearly not how the abortion law was intended to be used when it was first introduced. The Telegraph investigation also showed that abuse of the laws on abortions is not dealt with as a serious matter or indeed followed at all.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:37 pm

edison wrote:The Daily Mail `reported'. The newspaper `claimed'. The Mail’s coverage `seems'. The article `appears'

Whatever it was that UTB copied and pasted did all the "claiming", "seeming" and "appearing". And despite all the "despites" it doesn't appear, seem or claim to deny anything the Daily Mail has reported.

edison · Post by **edison** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:41 pm

Nursing Times - and true

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri May 25, 2018 3:43 pm

edison wrote:Nursing Times - and true

It's as "true" as the Daily Mail article.

Wexford_Claret · Post by **Wexford_Claret** » Fri May 25, 2018 5:01 pm

ClaretDiver wrote:Tribesman, forgive my ignorance on this but I believe a Yes win today does not mean that the Government WILL repeal, it just paves the way for it to.....

Yes, the suggestion made by the government in the event of a Yes vote is to legalise it up to 12 weeks.

#RepealThe8th
#Tá4Mná

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Fri May 25, 2018 5:07 pm

Wexford_Claret wrote:Yes, the suggestion made by the government in the event of a Yes vote is to legalise it up to 12 weeks.

#RepealThe8th
#Tá4Mná

Thanks Wexford!

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 5:37 pm

Rowls wrote:Lots and lots of people end up doing that
.

Spot on Rowls

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Fri May 25, 2018 5:44 pm

edison wrote:A bit of a dramatic form of contraception. Like honestly who thinks, given all the choices there are for contraception,`I think I'll go with abortions'?

There are reports of the same women having 6 or more abortions, once or twice is unlucky, but 6 ?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 5:58 pm

But come on, that isn't the norm is it?

I mean, I know you lot believe all the xenophobic bullshit, but please lets not start believing all the abortion bullshit as well.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Fri May 25, 2018 6:14 pm

12 weeks is quite early in comparison to the UK.

As I understand it, most tests to see if an unborn child may have Downs Syndrome are carried out after 12 weeks and a significant number do opt for a termination when a positive result is found.

The same debate but a very different angle on things. Should would be parents accept that their child will have Downs Syndrome, or should they be allowed to terminate, of this is the case?

I personally would have opted for termination but I’m sure many would (and perhaps rightly) disagree. There are some massively difficult and complex considerations to be had amongst the apparently simple Yes or No.

andyh · Post by **andyh** » Fri May 25, 2018 6:54 pm

If ever there was a topic to divide people. The problem is at conception a sperm and egg are difficult to classify. Some say even at that point it is an unborn child. And that if you stick with it makes all forms of termination after that point akin to murder. However if you consider it as just a few cells then termination seems like a simple thing compared to the social cost of an unwanted child. If you are in the second camp you have the extra problem of when exactly does this collection of cells become an individual. As it stands now in a hospital one theatre may be terminating a “baby” of exactly the same gestation as the next one where they are delivering a “baby” which is viable. As science advances we will be able to lower the bar at how many weeks are needed for viability. This makes the whole question a huge mess morally. Thankfully I don’t have a vote. It is too big a question for the average moral agnostic.

Wexford_Claret · Post by **Wexford_Claret** » Fri May 25, 2018 7:10 pm

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to this:
If a 14 year old girl has been raped in Ireland, the only way she can terminate her pregnancy and avoid the trauma of giving birth at such a young age is to travel to the U.K. or elsewhere and pay for an abortion.

This is not a situation that can be allowed to exist any longer in a country as developed and forward thinking as modern day Ireland. Women deserve a choice, and at the moment they simply do not have one.

Tá4Mná, as they say.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Fri May 25, 2018 7:25 pm

CoolClaret wrote:Think aborting kids is a bit messed up.
Imo, only if there is a direct health risk to the mother/or the mother was raped etc.

Aborting because of a mistake? Feels wrong to me... Real wrong.

Define health risk.

I know a woman who had an abortion, she didn't feel ready for a child and had some long term depression /anxiety issues that meant having a child wasn't the right option for her at that point in her life.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Fri May 25, 2018 7:41 pm

I wonder how much influence the Catholic Church are having on this policy?

I wonder if the church would feel differently if prepubescent boys could become pregnant

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Fri May 25, 2018 8:47 pm

You'd probably cut child abuse by the church right down if that was the case.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri May 25, 2018 9:21 pm

DCWat wrote:12 weeks is quite early in comparison to the UK.

As I understand it, most tests to see if an unborn child may have Downs Syndrome are carried out after 12 weeks and a significant number do opt for a termination when a positive result is found.

The same debate but a very different angle on things. Should would be parents accept that their child will have Downs Syndrome, or should they be allowed to terminate, of this is the case?

I personally would have opted for termination but I’m sure many would (and perhaps rightly) disagree. There are some massively difficult and complex considerations to be had amongst the apparently simple Yes or No.

And yet so many people (including me) would be revolted by the idea of looking at a child with Downs' Syndrome and in effect saying "that child is not fit to live". My sister would not have the amniocentis test for Down's Syndrome because even if the test proved positive, which proved only that the child might have Down's Syndrome, not that it would, there was nothing the doctors could do about it but to kill the child. Or foetus, if that's what you prefer.

This abortion debate, far more than Brexit or any similar, can never be agreed on or compromised. On one side we have people who believe that pregnant mothers are carrying unborn babies, human beings, with lives worth saving. On the other side we have people who believe that pregnant mothers are not carrying a human being, or else they are carrying a human but theat human life isn't worth saving.

We could agree to compromise woman who is raped. We could perhaps, though probably not, agree to compromise on the woman with 6+ abortions using at contraception. But on the fundamental principle, there can't be any compromise, only disagreement; so it becomes a matter of which side has more supporters and that's that.

JarrowClaret · Post by **JarrowClaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 9:36 pm

I think DSR has it pretty much spot on as Some one who has suffered through a miscarriage I couldn’t bring myself to fully support abortions. That said for me it has to be legal in certain situations what them are and who decides isn’t easy to say rape is one situation definitely.

Edit just to add there are no winners with this made me sick to my stomach when I saw someone celebrating being part of the yes vote it is a serious question and surely above this behavior.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Fri May 25, 2018 10:01 pm

edison wrote:A bit of a dramatic form of contraception. Like honestly who thinks, given all the choices there are for contraception,`I think I'll go with abortions'?

I know a few.

One girl I know has had no less than 3, perhaps more and she's only 24

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Fri May 25, 2018 10:05 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:I know a few.

One girl I know has had no less than 3, perhaps more and she's only 24

It’s your girlfriend, isn’t it?

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Fri May 25, 2018 10:15 pm

Children should come into this world with parents who want them rather then not so l would vote yes.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri May 25, 2018 10:34 pm

Exit polls suggest an overwhelming majority in favour

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Fri May 25, 2018 11:00 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Exit polls suggest an overwhelming majority in favour

The Irish Times exit poll has it at 68% for the Yes vote . yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Wexford_Claret · Post by **Wexford_Claret** » Sat May 26, 2018 12:02 am

Fantastic news.

On to the Northern State now.

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Sat May 26, 2018 12:28 am

Wexford_Claret wrote:At the end of the day, I think it comes down to this:
If a 14 year old girl has been raped in Ireland, the only way she can terminate her pregnancy and avoid the trauma of giving birth at such a young age is to travel to the U.K. or elsewhere and pay for an abortion.

This is not a situation that can be allowed to exist any longer in a country as developed and forward thinking as modern day Ireland. Women deserve a choice, and at the moment they simply do not have one.

Tá4Mná, as they say.

This referendum is not a yes or no on whether abortion should be allowed for underage rape victims.

It was a yes or no on whether abortions should be allowed, for any reason, up to 12 weeks into pregnancy.

So no, at the end of the day, it does not come down to that narrow hypothetical.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat May 26, 2018 1:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:But come on, that isn't the norm is it?
I mean, I know you lot believe all the xenophobic bullshit, but please lets not start believing all the abortion bullshit as well.

"Not the norm" is the wrong way of looking at it IMO. If only one child in the UK died of hunger should we celebrate that fact or be sorry for the child who did succumb?

The stats show that around a third of abortions are repeat abortions. Having worked in social services working with drug addicts and prostitutes I would say that for a number of women, having an abortion is not out of the ordinary.

In percentage terms they would not be a high number but these stats suggest tens of thousands of women in the UK are seeking abortions on a regular basis. Tens of thousands is a lot.

Whether you think tens of thousands is a "big number" is your subjective opinion but nobody has posted any "bullshit" about abortions at all. Those are the numbers as UpTheBeehole reported from the Nursing magazine and the Daily Mail which were based on official figures.

DCWat wrote:12 weeks is quite early in comparison to the UK.

It is but the UK has one of the latest dates for allowing abortions in Europe. We don't make a good comparison in that respect.

******

Very glad to see the yes vote won the day but hope that Ireland properly maintains any laws it brings in around abortion.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat May 26, 2018 2:33 am

Two exit polls have the yes vote prevailing. (BBC)