Italy and the EU

[GodIsADeeJay81]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... al-markets" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bit of mess in Italy, the President refused to sanction the creation of a government that chosen a Euro sceptic as it's finance minister from what I can gather.

Italy is also on its arse financially as it has been for a very long time and there's a worry that if there's a new election this year it could be focused on being in or out of the EU.

[HatfieldClaret]

Imagine wanting to leave the EU. Whatever next ?

[Chobulous]

It'll be interesting to see the outcome when the EU starts to bully Italy in the same way that Greece was bullied. I don't think that will end well.

[Tribesmen]

The country is broke,if they pull out of the Euro then what would they do ?

[Colburn_Claret]

The country is broke,if they pull out of the Euro then what would they do ?

The theory is, they go back to the Lira.
They can then set the value of the Lira, low enough to attract outside investment, as companies look for cheap factories, cheap labour.
A couple of years of belt tightening could finally see them escape the yoke that the Euro is.

Europe is too diverse, economically and socially to support a single currency. Too many people suffer because of the constraints it requires member states to adhere to. It isn't just Greece.

[IanMcL]

Dog whips tail!

[Chobulous]

If Italy leaves the euro Greece will certainly follow. That may not set off a chain reaction immediately, but leaving the euro will then become a tempting option for any other country that begins to struggle economically.

[houseboy]

In 10 years or so the EU will consist of the Germans, the French and.....mmm. Maybe the lowland countries? The Euro will be worth the same as the German Mark just after the war.....nothing. Ha ha! Can't wait.

[Chobulous]

In that scenario the euro would probably be a very strong currency because there would not be the basket case economies of southern Europe to drag it down. That is as long as the Germans were prepared to tolerate the French farmers and trades unions. That divorce might take a little bit longer.

[RingoMcCartney]

The 2 popular parties got around 50% of the vote which is very impressive in a multi party election.

They had the democratic right to choose their man. They did. But because hed had the nerve to speek out against the EU, the president vetoed democracy and imposed his pro EU, ex-IMF stooge.

This will absolulty backfire in the coming elections where the People are expected to vote in even bigger numbers for the Ligue and 5 Star Movement.

With German EU commissioners claiming "the financial markets will show the Italians who to vote for" has only added fuel the fire of opinion of the Italian People that the EU is being run by and on behalf of an increasingly emboldened and bullying Germany.

But we've seen all this before with the tyrannical EU. -

Ireland made to vote TWICE

Dutch referendum ignored

French referendum ignored

Clear attempt by colluding EU officials to stop Brexit, as witnessed on channel 4s Carry on Brussels programme last night.

And the over riding of the Greek referendum to reject deep austerity and a former Goldman Sachs banker imposed as president.

The EU sees nationhood and sovereignty as evil.

I remind you of the plaque placed in the brand new multimillion pound EU visitors centre.

"National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

A British MEP said on the radio only yesterday. That he'd spoken to Italian colleagues, and they were very concerned about the pro EU quisling, in the Italian political establishment, attempting to alter the constitution to firstly stop fresh elections and then entrench the presidents decision to ignore the democratic choice of the massively popular coalition.

These anti democratic monsters are enacting their "final remedy"

[Right_winger]

Anyone with half a brain cell knows that the EU is a corrupt anti-democratic organisation. The sooner we leave lock stock and barrel the better. Italy would also be best served sticking 2 fingers up to Brussels and removing th shackles, let’s be honest what has it got to loose.

[Foulthrow]

The theory is, they go back to the Lira.
They can then set the value of the Lira, low enough to attract outside investment, as companies look for cheap factories, cheap labour.
A couple of years of belt tightening could finally see them escape the yoke that the Euro is.

Stop egging them on.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Has anyone seen one of the Pro-Eu mob?

They appear to be suspiciously quiet about this on...

[Damo]

I don't understand why the EU are trying so hard to bully them into submission.
They don't need us apparently and we are 2nd biggest contributer.
Italy are a lowely 5th place

[Falcon]

It's got to the state on this messageboard that any bit of news that either makes the EU look bad or make Brexit look bad will be jumped on by whichever side of the debate gleefully gloating against their perceived opponents. Political debate shouldn't be about scoring points against your rivals. Argue the position, not the person.

Tribalism in politics is just plain stupid. The EU does a lot of good but a lot of stupid. Brexit has a lot of problems but a lot of opportunities. It's not black and white and you'd be mad to think otherwise.

And before anyone says "yes but the other side are worse", you're dead wrong. You're both as bad as each other and together you're dragging this messageboard down the drain.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Amazingly some ecomomists try to argue, as with us, that Italy's economic woes are nowt to do with the EU.

Hmmmm.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Italy has never known what it wants.

The talk of corruption in the EU is quite a laugh when thinking of Italy.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It's got to the state on this messageboard that any bit of news that either makes the EU look bad or make Brexit look bad will be jumped on by whichever side of the debate gleefully gloating against their perceived opponents. Political debate shouldn't be about scoring points against your rivals. Argue the position, not the person.

Tribalism in politics is just plain stupid. The EU does a lot of good but a lot of stupid. Brexit has a lot of problems but a lot of opportunities. It's not black and white and you'd be mad to think otherwise.

And before anyone says "yes but the other side are worse", you're dead wrong. You're both as bad as each other and together you're dragging this messageboard down the drain.

This news is also ignored by the Pro-EU gang, because it doesn't paint their side in a good light.

As for dragging the message board down, Brexit is usually confined to one post now last time I saw one and rightly so.

[Damo]

It's got to the state on this messageboard that any bit of news that either makes the EU look bad or make Brexit look bad will be jumped on by whichever side of the debate gleefully gloating against their perceived opponents. Political debate shouldn't be about scoring points against your rivals. Argue the position, not the person.

Tribalism in politics is just plain stupid. The EU does a lot of good but a lot of stupid. Brexit has a lot of problems but a lot of opportunities. It's not black and white and you'd be mad to think otherwise.

And before anyone says "yes but the other side are worse", you're dead wrong. You're both as bad as each other and together you're dragging this messageboard down the drain.

Aye, we should all be more like you and not comment on the political threads...

[Lauren12]

All those nasty racist Italians wanting out of the EU, how dare they (oh, and those horrible Greeks, sneaky Dutch, ignorant French, etc, etc). Who do you jack boot wearing nationalists think you are ?

I actually voted to remain, but find the incredible animosity and accusations directed toward those that wanted to leave (my other half, for example) quite unbelievable.

Let people decide. It's called Democracy.

[RingoMcCartney]

Has anyone seen one of the Pro-Eu mob?

They appear to be suspiciously quiet about this on...

"National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”   

They've obviously bought into the "final remedy"

It's clearly far easier to fool some one , than convince them that they've actually been fooled in the first place......

[gtclaret]

The theory is, they go back to the Lira.
They can then set the value of the Lira, low enough to attract outside investment, as companies look for cheap factories, cheap labour.
A couple of years of belt tightening could finally see them escape the yoke that the Euro is.

Europe is too diverse, economically and socially to support a single currency. Too many people suffer because of the constraints it requires member states to adhere to. It isn't just Greece.

At last, some reality and common sense regarding the EU

[RingoMcCartney]

Anybody still deluding themselves that the EU is not morphing into the 4th Reich.

"The Troika would have to march into Rome': German MEP says Brussels could take control of Italy's finance ministry if populist parties form a Eurosceptic government"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ances.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Following the financial crash of 2008. The Irish budget had to effectively be signed off in Berlin.

We saw what happened, and is still happening, in Greece.

Now Italy is getting the "final remedy" treatment....

Don't forget the EU commission described the brutal violence dished out by brutish Spanish robocops on elderly Catalonian folk, who were simply voting, as "PROPORTIONATE!!!"

Thank **** I voted Leave

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Calm down, nobody is leaving the EU, not Italy and not the UK either.
The intelligent will fix the mistakes of the stupid as they always do, just give them time.

[ElectroClaret]

Europe is too diverse, economically and socially to support a single currency. Too many people suffer because of the constraints it requires member states to adhere to. It isn't just Greece.

This. Spot on. The Euro was a flawed concept right from the start.

[BennyD]

As I said many times; once we leave, the road to EU implosion has been paved and lit. It’s not a question of if, but when.

[nil_desperandum]

It'll all be fine for some people.
Even if the UK and Italy tumble out of the EU, we can always try follow the example of Nigel Lawson - (who chaired the Vote Leave campaign), and apply for French residency.

[South West Claret.]

Italy change their governments more often then Leeds change their managers.

[tiger76]

The French being awkward again quelle surprise https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/96737 ... uel-macron

[nil_desperandum]

The French being awkward again quelle surprise https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/96737 ... uel-macron

Not sure that you are accurately representing the French position here.
You only have to read the article to the end to understand the French position.
The UK has taken a deliberate - supposedly considered - decision to leave the EU.
They also want to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
So: firstly we will no longer be paying for the shared benefits of being in the EU, (which includes this type of thing), but more importantly, it is the ECJ that regulates shared data.
This is just one more reason why the EU have had the upper hand in negotiations.
They have known since day one that we can't just walk away from a deal. We are partners with EU countries in so many ways, and we can't just cherrypick the bits we like unless the other 27 states agree, and we accept their terms.
It's simple really - it's our decision to leave, you can't blame the French for what we decided.

[Spiral]

Can someone show me how the EU is blocking Italian secession from the Union? (It isn't). Or that the Italians have even attempted secession from the Union? (They haven't). Or the mandate for the Italians leaving the eurozone? (There isn't one). Or how the EU is even blocking that? (It can't, because-and this is the essential point-nobody knows what on earth the Italians want to do with their currency).

As far as I can tell this is an Italian domestic issue which ties to eurozone politics. (With a lot on people on here busting one prematurely). The Italian President is exercising his power to block the appointment to a gov't position of a nominee who not only has zero mandate to carry out a policy that absolutely nobody campaigned on, but also whose very appointment would tank the Italian economy before he even gets his feet under the desk due to the uncertainty on his policy position. In an ideal world the populists would have made clear their policy position vis-a-vis currency abundantly clear. If they had a mind on leaving the euro they should have campaigned on that but they didn't, hence the mess.

[Caballo]

Not sure that you are accurately representing the French position here.
You only have to read the article to the end to understand the French position.
The UK has taken a deliberate - supposedly considered - decision to leave the EU.
They also want to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
So: firstly we will no longer be paying for the shared benefits of being in the EU, (which includes this type of thing), but more importantly, it is the ECJ that regulates shared data.
This is just one more reason why the EU have had the upper hand in negotiations.
They have known since day one that we can't just walk away from a deal. We are partners with EU countries in so many ways, and we can't just cherrypick the bits we like unless the other 27 states agree, and we accept their terms.
It's simple really - it's our decision to leave, you can't blame the French for what we decided.

Given that it's accepted by the rest of the EU that our counter terrorism and info gathering is the gold standard, I find it a rather odd position for the French to take.

[Colburn_Claret]

Not sure that you are accurately representing the French position here.
You only have to read the article to the end to understand the French position.
The UK has taken a deliberate - supposedly considered - decision to leave the EU.
They also want to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
So: firstly we will no longer be paying for the shared benefits of being in the EU, (which includes this type of thing), but more importantly, it is the ECJ that regulates shared data.
This is just one more reason why the EU have had the upper hand in negotiations.
They have known since day one that we can't just walk away from a deal. We are partners with EU countries in so many ways, and we can't just cherrypick the bits we like unless the other 27 states agree, and we accept their terms.
It's simple really - it's our decision to leave, you can't blame the French for what we decided.

Of course it's the French being awkward . The same article says Germany are quite open to continuing sharing data. If they have no problem....Why should the French. Sharing information is a two way thing, as in many other areas, I'm sure America isn't disbarred from such information due to not being an EU member.
It's seems to be another chest beating operation, to be ignored at all cost, because their threat is idle.
I don't want to get into another Brexit argument, there's enough bullshit coming from both sides as it is. The bottom line should be no one cuts off their nose to spite their face. Barring Britain from such data doesn't make Europe safer, only weaker.

[South West Claret.]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... al-markets

Bit of mess in Italy, the President refused to sanction the creation of a government that chosen a Euro sceptic as it's finance minister from what I can gather.

Italy is also on its arse financially as it has been for a very long time and there's a worry that if there's a new election this year it could be focused on being in or out of the EU.

Who’s in-charge tomorrow then

[ecc]

Strikes me from reading that Daily Express article that the UK wants bits of the EU advantages eg shared data concerning criminals.

[nil_desperandum]

Of course it's the French being awkward . The same article says Germany are quite open to continuing sharing data. If they have no problem....Why should the French. Sharing information is a two way thing, as in many other areas, I'm sure America isn't disbarred from such information due to not being an EU member.
It's seems to be another chest beating operation, to be ignored at all cost, because their threat is idle.
I don't want to get into another Brexit argument, there's enough bullshit coming from both sides as it is. The bottom line should be no one cuts off their nose to spite their face. Barring Britain from such data doesn't make Europe safer, only weaker.

I'm afraid that you are reading into it exactly what the Daily Express wanted you to read.
It's the Express that describes the French as being awkward, whereas - in fact- they have requested that it be referred to European Commission. Given that what the UK wants involves exchange of data, and that this currently comes under ECJ jurisdiction, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the French have sought clarification of how it will work if we aren't signed up to the ECJ.

[Colburn_Claret]

I'm afraid that you are reading into it exactly what the Daily Express wanted you to read.
It's the Express that describes the French as being awkward, whereas - in fact- they have requested that it be referred to European Commission. Given that what the UK wants involves exchange of data, and that this currently comes under ECJ jurisdiction, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the French have sought clarification of how it will work if we aren't signed up to the ECJ.

America isn't signed up to ECJ either. That's my whole point. National security doesn't rest on being a member or non member of the EU or ECJ, it's just common sense for countries with a shared interest. Leaving the EU doesn't mean that Britain no longer has shared interests with the EU or the rest of the world, Its nit picking of the highest order.
Wether I am reading the take of the Express, I don't know. I do know it's totally unnecessary.

[nil_desperandum]

America isn't signed up to ECJ either. That's my whole point. National security doesn't rest on being a member or non member of the EU or ECJ, it's just common sense for countries with a shared interest. Leaving the EU doesn't mean that Britain no longer has shared interests with the EU or the rest of the world, Its nit picking of the highest order.
Wether I am reading the take of the Express, I don't know. I do know it's totally unnecessary.

I don't really disagree with you. It's just that the Express - in particular- always paint a picture of the EU causing problems, when in fact it's our decision to leave the EU, and de facto terminate all the current agreements.
Of course all countries will want the current arrangements to continue, and they will, but if we are outside the EU then we will need a bespoke deal with the EU similar to the one that the EU currently have with the USA.

[Damo]

Not sure that you are accurately representing the French position here.
You only have to read the article to the end to understand the French position.
The UK has taken a deliberate - supposedly considered - decision to leave the EU.
They also want to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
So: firstly we will no longer be paying for the shared benefits of being in the EU, (which includes this type of thing), but more importantly, it is the ECJ that regulates shared data.
This is just one more reason why the EU have had the upper hand in negotiations.
They have known since day one that we can't just walk away from a deal. We are partners with EU countries in so many ways, and we can't just cherrypick the bits we like unless the other 27 states agree, and we accept their terms.
It's simple really - it's our decision to leave, you can't blame the French for what we decided.

I always thought the EU was a trading bloc?
Your junker-esque speech pretty much sums it up as being a political monster that will spite it's own people in the name of control.
We should be more like them. Slam the door shut behind us and don't even answer the phone when they call

[CrosspoolClarets]

It's got to the state on this messageboard that any bit of news that either makes the EU look bad or make Brexit look bad will be jumped on by whichever side of the debate gleefully gloating against their perceived opponents. Political debate shouldn't be about scoring points against your rivals. Argue the position, not the person.

Tribalism in politics is just plain stupid. The EU does a lot of good but a lot of stupid. Brexit has a lot of problems but a lot of opportunities. It's not black and white and you'd be mad to think otherwise.

And before anyone says "yes but the other side are worse", you're dead wrong. You're both as bad as each other and together you're dragging this messageboard down the drain.

Excellent comment.

The trouble is, the EU are extreme - some excellent initiatives (like the fingerprint database that France are trying to keep us out of), but some complete whack jobs - like the euro, designed to keep non-exporting countries in permanent serfdom. Brexit is the same - some excellent opportunities (like resetting our trade tariffs) but some massive risks (like losing some major businesses).

People are always going to see one side or the other, and where you are right is that things get so defensive folk dig their heels in. Every single person in the country had at least 1% of them voting Remain and at least 1% of them voting Leave, it was about judging which was the biggest weighting in their minds. We should all be honest enough to admit it.

Personally I am a 75/25 to Leave. There were reasons to Remain, but many more to Leave, and I view the risks as minuscule compared to the risks my forefathers took. I respect those who see it the other way, but not those who never admit there was any debate about it.

[Right_winger]

With regards intelligence I suppose the EU will no doubt still demand information from GCHQ which holds more than 50% of all data/intelligence in Europe. The EU most certainly does not have the trump card here.

Popcorn at the ready for when the EUs bluffs are called.

[randomclaret2]

Claret on a T Rex using the "stupid " moniker again I see....sounds familiar

[CrosspoolClarets]

It'll all be fine for some people.
Even if the UK and Italy tumble out of the EU, we can always try follow the example of Nigel Lawson - (who chaired the Vote Leave campaign), and apply for French residency.

Lawson has long since had French residency, he just wants to stay there, he doesn’t want to become a citizen.

I don’t see what that has to do with his moral judgement about what is best for the British people? Most Brexiteers have agreed with maintaining residency rights. I saw it in the papers today but it is just bitter mud slinging, no real arguments.

[nil_desperandum]

I always thought the EU was a trading bloc?
Your junker-esque speech pretty much sums it up as being a political monster that will spite it's own people in the name of control.
We should be more like them. Slam the door shut behind us and don't even answer the phone when they call

So basically you don't want continued co-operation on a whole range of issues, ranging from security, (the point that was raised here) through to "open skies", scientific research, cancer drugs etc.
Of course, we could rip up all our current agreements with the EU block and make separate bespoke deals on all these issues with all 27 individual states.
How long do you think that would take and cost, and can you think of any advantages?
Surely maintaining our current arrangements with the EU on such issues is the only sensible option?

[HatfieldClaret]

ND - you make it sound as non-EU airlines can't fly across Europe.

More than 50% of all scientific patents in the EU are British.

The EU stopping cooperating with the EU regarding research etc would just be threats and dummy spitting.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Claret on a T Rex using the "stupid " moniker again I see....sounds familiar

Well, "if the hat fits", as they say.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

I personally think it's a shame, the UK is supposed to have an average IQ of 100, making it 7th in the world.
Unfortunately, the Brexit referendum proved otherwise (though not in London, Scotland, Northern Ireland).
Thankfully, a second Brexit referendum would show a very different result as many of the "leave" voters realise they made a mistake and/or were manipulated by social media.
We are also a couple of years further on so less xenophobic/misguided old folk and more intelligent/dynamic, forward-thinking young folk.
I imagine Burnley would still be a "leave" area though due to historically bad race relations and lack of education.

[nil_desperandum]

ND - you make it sound as non-EU airlines can't fly across Europe.

More than 50% of all scientific patents in the EU are British.

The EU stopping cooperating with the EU regarding research etc would just be threats and dummy spitting.

I was actually responding to Damo's post in which he said that in leaving we should slam the door shut and not even pick up the phone, whereas after 40 years the only sensible course is to continue with the current arrangements / agreements in areas such as those I have mentioned.
With regards to flights, ( and we have covered this several times before), flights come freely in and out of the EU because they currently have agreements with the EU which a!low open skies.
When we leave the EU we not only need to retain our current "open skies" arrangements with the EU but also to ensure that we are still covered by the ",open sky " deals that the EU has with the rest of the world.
This should be very easy, but needs addressing nonetheless, particularly the issue that all these issues / arrangements are currently under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, which we want to leave.

[mdd2]

I think the only country to have benefitted from the Euro is Germany and as said above the currency would become a second strong Deutsche Mark if the Southern European nations left the currency union and this of course would slow down the German export business and be bad for the Germans

[Lauren12]

Postby Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:40 am
I personally think it's a shame, the UK is supposed to have an average IQ of 100, making it 7th in the world.
Unfortunately, the Brexit referendum proved otherwise (though not in London, Scotland, Northern Ireland).
Thankfully, a second Brexit referendum would show a very different result as many of the "leave" voters realise they made a mistake and/or were manipulated by social media.
We are also a couple of years further on so less xenophobic/misguided old folk and more intelligent/dynamic, forward-thinking young folk.
I imagine Burnley would still be a "leave" area though due to historically bad race relations and lack of education.


Just wow. So it's all simply down to low IQ, xenophobia and misguided, manipulated folk. I'm a 'remainer' (admittedly only just, 60/ 40ish), but find this kind of rhetoric condescending and hypocritical. There are so many confusing factors, some understood, some not and to sum it up in this narrow minded way is quite simply utter rubbish. Just my opinion of course.