Well, it seems that the NHS will now receive it's 350+ a week extra after Brexit.

I realise that will make some people on here very unhappy as they would have much preferred that they could continue to sneer at the 350m figure as opposed to actually see a tangible benefit to the institution they proclaim to care so much about; but hey, what can you do?

I know you will all argue that this all a lie, that it's all just tax payers money and that we will all actually be poorer as a result because the economy will be hit after brexit so its such a bad thing and all that, but the truth is, no matter how you spin this, whether its pro or anti brexit, the result is the same, the NHS has received an extra 380m a week and that is largely due to a brexit vote.


On stand by now to hear why I'm an Idiot from Turtle and co.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... s-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I can tell you that what I'm announcing will mean that in 2023-24 there will be about £600m a week, more in cash, going into the NHS.

"That will be through the Brexit dividend. The fact that we're no longer sending vast amounts of money every year to the EU once we leave the EU."

It's definitely triggered the remoaners in Twitterland, the sight of remoaner journalists foaming at the mouth over this is a thing of beauty.

It will be interesting to see how they spin this as a negative.

The obvious way is to point towards the higher taxes and call the whole thing a smokescreen, but even then, these are people that support higher taxes to pay for improved funding of socialised institutions, so either way it will take some work to spin this as a bad thing.

Its a poor point to make too, because pretty much across the political spectrum in the UK, people are generally happy for a little extra to be taken from their wage to fund the NHS, providing that's where it goes directly. So it's not as though they can sneer at those dumb brexiters for losing their own wage either, but I'm sure they will have a go.

Where is Impotent Tortoise?

I think there maybe some mis-reporting here. The BBC quote an extra £20billion/year but then state that spending will rise by over 3% per year of the present £114 billion budget over the next 5 years and that is about £20 billion over 5 years.There is no way we will be pumping £20 billion/year extra into the NHS over the next 5 years, almost doubling spending on health care. I note there is no mention of social care spending in this press release, or if there is I haven't seen it.
Whilst I am sure the NHS could easily waste an extra £20 billion/year to suddenly give it £20 billion/year to use appropriately would he hard to do given the need to recruit thousands of additional trained staff to do the additional work that could be done and to prevent burn out of the present staff many of whom are on their knees from the amount of work that has been thrust upon them.

Bfcboyo wrote:"I can tell you that what I'm announcing will mean that in 2023-24 there will be about £600m a week, more in cash, going into the NHS.

"That will be through the Brexit dividend. The fact that we're no longer sending vast amounts of money every year to the EU once we leave the EU."

So that is about £120 million per week over the next 5 years and this next two years will be around £80-90 million/week; I think we are looking at a 3.7% annual uplift of the £114 billion NHS spend.That gets you to an extra £27.76 billion over the 6 years to 2023-24 or £534 million/week

You would hope Theresa has done her homework before stating figures. Im fairly confident she will know better than any of us the predictions.

Anyone familiar with the fable The Emperors New Clothes ?

It's gonna be from more borrowing or higher taxes. There is no Brexit Dividend. Brexit will weaken finances by 15 billing a year.

ClaretAndJew wrote:It's gonna be from more borrowing or higher taxes. There is no Brexit Dividend. Brexit will weaken finances by 15 billing a year.

So for left wingers, why is NHS spending going up via taxation a problem?

Bfcboyo wrote:You would hope Theresa has done her homework before stating figures. Im fairly confident she will know better than any of us the predictions.

Then again, she might just be making it up.

"Labour would have invested nearly £9bn extra this year in the NHS and social care, while asking the wealthiest and big corporations to pay their fair share of tax," quote from Ashworth Labour's shadow health minister.
So watch out for when Labour reprise Healey's pip squeaking taxation plans and watch tax receipts fall

There is no point talking to the likes of Moffat/claretandy that their figures are hogwash and they are basically wanking themselves into another bunch of brexit lies.

But to anyone else who still actually has the ability to deduce figures and actual news from spin, then the following may help

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1008270198858805248" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/sta ... 3399460864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.facebook.com/14982767671637 ... 522741582/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://twitter.com/Sime0nStylites/stat ... 5141633024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... -dividend/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/ ... 5755269120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/ ... 0697441280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - this one is much more relevent, as its the PM saying "its a tax"

Even the last one, the most Brexit of a very Brexit media is laughing about it.

Lancasterclaret wrote:There is no point talking to the likes of Moffat/claretandy that their figures are hogwash and they are basically wanking themselves into another bunch of brexit lies.

But to anyone else who still actually has the ability to deduce figures and actual news from spin, then the following may help

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1008270198858805248" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/sta ... 3399460864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.facebook.com/14982767671637 ... 522741582/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://twitter.com/Sime0nStylites/stat ... 5141633024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... -dividend/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/ ... 5755269120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Even the last one, the most Brexit of a very Brexit media is laughing about it.

So you don't want more money for the NHS ?

Not at all, I want someone to be honest and go "its going to cost us xxxx to save the NHS and make it fit for our current issues. We will raise xxxx through extra taxes and borrowing, which will cost us all more money and it will be ringfenced for NHS/social care for councils use only"

What is wrong with saying that, because that is what it is.

Taxes to the NHS is fine,lying about where it is coming from is the problem.

Woohoo, another brexit thread!

claretandy wrote:So you don't want more money for the NHS ?

Half of the figures being used in those links are based of total guesswork of an after brexit outcome, and no doubt the most negative prediction imaginable. There is no final deal, there is no loss of trade yet, there is no tariffs yet nor is there any guarantee they will be, or if so, what they will be. Those figures are totally meaningless as literally an infinite amount of factors can change their outcomes totally.

Others are so full of contradictions its baffling that people so well paid could make them. For instance the one with the director of the IFS on LBC says there is no dividend generated from brexit, period, then a minute later says the brexit dividend is already committed to a severance fee. So which is it? This is the same IFS that said that there would be an extra 3 years austerity if we voted Brexit, that there would be a 70billion black hole in the UK finances and that the shock from a leave vote would result in an immediate recession. So why should we take their "predictions" seriously?

How much money is lost on NHS prescriptions being drawn and immediately packaged and posted out of the country? It's millions in Burnley alone.

Oh, and you need to add "Due to a recent decision that for some bizarre reasons that all the EU NHS workers took to mean we didn't want them in our country, we are going to need a lot of non-NHSimmigration to fill the gaps in our workforce" as well. Because that is what is going to happen.*

*that won't be Canadians, Aussies or New Zealanders who for some daft, completely impossible to discover reason that people don't mind as immigrants, it will be Indians, Pakistanis etc etc etc.

Who should I believe?

Experts or people who just want Brexit at any cost

Its not a tough one is it?

Basil, nice cast mate but as you are clearly completely deranged it doesn't work. You need to be more subtle (and sane)

Anyway off out now so feel free to continue to enjoy your Brexit fantasies in my absence.

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Well, it seems that the NHS will now receive it's 350+ a week extra after Brexit.

I realise that will make some people on here very unhappy as they would have much preferred that they could continue to sneer at the 350m figure as opposed to actually see a tangible benefit to the institution they proclaim to care so much about; but hey, what can you do?

.[/i]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... s-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As all the links posted by Lancaster show, it's by no means as simplistic as you imply, but just to confirm that you worded this:
"350 + a week AFTER Brexit", not "350 + due to Brexit dividend".
It would be dishonest to make that claim since - as has been proved (and admitted) - that 350 figure has never existed.
It is theoretically possible that the entire £150 million NET contribution to the EU could go to the NHS, but this doesn't take into account any money that we continue to pay in for the bits we want to keep, or money we spend to cover the shared projects that are currently part of our EU membership.
Any extra funding for the NHS (and Social Care) - which I support BTW - will have to be funded by the Govt. and if the financial predictions of a "no deal" are anything like correct, then the Tories are going to have raid the "magic money tree".

Lancasterclaret wrote:Who should I believe?

Experts or people who just want Brexit at any cost

Its not a tough one is it?

Basil, nice cast mate but as you are clearly completely deranged it doesn't work. You need to be more subtle (and sane)

Blue ticked "Political correspondents" on twitter aren't experts.

The real experts are the ones keeping their mouths shut on the financial side of things until we at the very minimum know what type of customs arrangement is agreed and what barriers will or will not exist to trade because they know any predictions until such a time is reached will be totally worthless.

basil6345789 wrote:How much money is lost on NHS prescriptions being drawn and immediately packaged and posted out of the country? It's millions in Burnley alone.

nil_desperandum wrote:As all the links posted by Lancaster show, it's by no means as simplistic as you imply, but just to confirm that you worded this:
"350 + a week AFTER Brexit", not "350 + due to Brexit dividend".
It would be dishonest to make that claim since - as has been proved (and admitted) - that 350 figure has never existed.
It is theoretically possible that the entire £150 million NET contribution to the EU could go to the NHS, but this doesn't take into account any money that we continue to pay in for the bits we want to keep, or money we spend to cover the shared projects that are currently part of our EU membership.
Any extra funding for the NHS (and Social Care) - which I support BTW - will have to be funded by the Govt. and if the financial predictions of a "no deal" are anything like correct, then the Tories are going to have raid the "magic money tree".

The reason I chose my words so carefully was because I am totally aware the bulk of this increase in spending will come from tax increases, some will come from brexit membership savings too no doubt but tax increases will clearly be the main factor. My point was simple though, a brexit vote has resulted in increased NHS spending of 380m so the outcome for the NHS is the same. Which is what the left have been predominantly angry about since well, 2010 really but mainly 2016, sneering at the fact it would never happen, almost wishfully so.

Bfcboyo wrote:Where is Impotent Tortoise?

Sobbing. Deep deep deep in the bowels of Turtle Bunker.

But he's hasn't been on his own when it comes to the Brexit dividend this country will get. Oh no. There's a whole legion of Remoaners who have been economic masochists, craving for bad news, following the single biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed. Just so they give it the big 'en, and say, "told you so."

Come out, come out, you self-loathing Remoaners, where ever you may be!

Does it matter if there is extra money or not? Does this prove people were right to vote out? I didn’t see that on the ballot paper.

The referendum question was a small one i.e. if people wanted to stay in the EU or not, anything after that is irrelevant as this wasn't voted for - save money, open borders, immigration, these items were not on the ballet paper. In or out was the only question not anyones opinion. Out was the result and people (remainers) need to understand that this is now the goal based on democracy.

What appears crazy to me is that the negotiations based on this vote appear over complicated for such a simple question. Already we appear to be negotiating some form of out but while wanting to remain as much in as possible … crazy.

is this proposed extra money available as a result of brexit, in spite of brexit or neither?

the turkeys seem to believe it's as a result.

As someone who has spent 30 years trying to “save” the NHS financially, I can say that this money is sorely needed so well done Theresa May, she will have faced Cabinet opposition for this level of increase. Anyone not saying well done is frankly a numpty.

As for the funding of it, she obviously wants the whole Brexit Bus thing behind her, and were it not for the bus the NHS uplift would no doubt have been less, it prompted her to put extra in so as to say she has delivered what was promised.

Yes, the EU saving will only be a part of it, with a potential for short term disruption to the economy that offsets it (though arguably this disruption is not the vote to leave but the cack handed negotiations, which is different).

CrosspoolClarets wrote:As someone who has spent 30 years trying to “save” the NHS financially, I can say that this money is sorely needed so well done Theresa May, she will have faced Cabinet opposition for this level of increase. Anyone not saying well done is frankly a numpty.

As for the funding of it, she obviously wants the whole Brexit Bus thing behind her, and were it not for the bus the NHS uplift would no doubt have been less, it prompted her to put extra in so as to say she has delivered what was promised.

Yes, the EU saving will only be a part of it, with a potential for short term disruption to the economy that offsets it (though arguably this disruption is not the vote to leave but the cack handed negotiations, which is different).

This chap knows.

ClaretMoffitt wrote:This chap knows.

he thinks he does.

anyone quoting a 'saving' from leaving the eu is making one hell of an assumption.

and anyone assuming any increase in spending in the nhs is a direct result of brexit is clutching at straws.

yTib wrote:he thinks he does.

anyone quoting a 'saving' from leaving the eu is making one hell of an assumption.

and anyone assuming any increase in spending in the nhs is a direct result of brexit is clutching at straws.

It is a direct result of Brexit.

The Tories would not be pumping in this type of money to the NHS if it wasn't for that brexit promise, that's just a fact.

You can argue about how much of that money funding it is a direct result of Brexit until the cows come home, sure. Nobody is saying it all is, the economics around it all is even too complicated to say if some of it will, it all depends on too many factors to even try to pinpoint it.

But when all is said and done, this extra funding (to this extent at least) is a directly result of the brexit vote.

maybe your definition of the word 'fact' differs from mine.

or maybe you are a clairvoyant.

are you saying you know with certainty that the nhs wouldn't be in the same mire had we voted to remain?

Nowt to do with Brexit beyond the political spin around it. It's to do with the fact that the NHS is on it's ass and it'd be political suicide not to react. In real terms i.e. stripping out inflation whilst additional funding will be welcomed by most people it's not a big increase. The NHS needs reforming at the same time though because just putting in more money now is not sustainable.

taio wrote:Nowt to do with Brexit beyond the political spin around it. It's to do with the fact that the NHS is on it's ass

this.

Don't mind supporting the NHS with a bit of extra cash only if it is spent wisely and not wasted like when labour was last in power

I remember at the time Tony Blair spouting off about creating a couple of 100 thousand extra jobs, from what I gather they were mainly pen pushers.

The NHS must be kept lean, throwing money at it, will be a big mistake. May is just trying to win some popularity and it really does not wash with me, just stinks of weak leadership

kept lean?

it's not a greyhound.

the answer is tax. if we want a service that functions we have to be prepared to pay for it.

Top Claret wrote:Don't mind supporting the NHS with a bit of extra cash only if it is spent wisely and not wasted like when labour was last in power

I remember at the time Tony Blair spouting off about creating a couple of 100 thousand extra jobs, from what I gather they were mainly pen pushers.

The NHS must be kept lean, throwing money at it, will be a big mistake. May is just trying to win some popularity and it really does not wash with me, just stinks of weak leadership

This is a genuine question - what sort of leadership would you want on the NHS instead of or alongside much needed extra funding?

Top Claret wrote:Don't mind supporting the NHS with a bit of extra cash only if it is spent wisely and not wasted like when labour was last in power

I remember at the time Tony Blair spouting off about creating a couple of 100 thousand extra jobs, from what I gather they were mainly pen pushers.

The NHS must be kept lean, throwing money at it, will be a big mistake. May is just trying to win some popularity and it really does not wash with me, just stinks of weak leadership

There are very, very few people in the UK who (when questioned) would oppose paying a little more towards the NHS for better service IF they believed that money would go to front-line services, medical research and buying equipment. The consensus on this issue is one that pretty much equals across the political landscape in this country. The problem is that the left seem to deny that the NHS needs reform at all or that population increases need to be controlled, they seem to shout that all it's problems can be solved by simply throwing endless amounts of money at it and that's that.

The Sunday Times report (extracts):

Theresa May tops Brexiteers’ pledge with extra £384m a week for NHS

The NHS will receive an extra £384m a week after a deal to hand the health service the biggest cash boost in its history.

Theresa May will announce today that the health service budget will rise by £20bn a year — but to pay for it the government will have to increase taxes and borrowing by £11bn, the equivalent of around 3p on the basic rate of income tax.

The rest of the money will come from what ministers are calling a “Brexit dividend”, by diverting the £9bn the UK pays into the EU budget to NHS funding.

That will enable the prime minister to claim she has fulfilled the controversial pledge of pro-Brexit campaigners to increase NHS spending by £350m a week.

The deal — worth a total of £70bn in real terms over the next five years — means that by 2023 Britain will be spending the same proportion of national income on health as France does now.

● A five-year funding plan with average spending rises of 3.4%, with 4% extra in the first two years
● A 10-year plan to train more doctors and nurses and improve cancer survival rates and mental health care
● An efficiency plan to ensure “every pound is spent wisely”.

**********************
My comments and questions:

Interesting to see the comparison with health spending in France. Anyone know how the French "national health service" operates? Is it all funded by taxation and is "free at the point of use?" Do patients have the long waiting times we have in the UK?

I'm sure one or two who favour the EU can explain how health services operate in the major member states. How do they compare with NHS?

ClaretMoffitt wrote:There are very, very few people in the UK who (when questioned) would oppose paying a little more towards the NHS for better service IF they believed that money would go to front-line services, medical research and buying equipment. The consensus on this issue is one that pretty much equals across the political landscape in this country. The problem is that the left seem to deny that the NHS needs reform at all or that population increases need to be controlled, they seem to shout that all it's problems can be solved by simply throwing endless amounts of money at it and that's that.

This is a really good point. Unfortunately it seems no political party has the balls to do what you're suggesting because of short termism. What actually needs to happen is cross party political consensus about how health and care should be funded and reformed in the long term. Of course that will never happen though.

This is the UK Government position on finances after Brexit. The same one who are telling you that there is a Brexit dividend to pay for the NHS

https://twitter.com/PJTheEconomist/stat ... 0981072897" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Official UK Government position

I can do this all day but if you lot want to believe the crap you are all spouting you have to come up with something other than what you have attempted to do over the past two years.

I'm sure you are all bright lads, and absolute world leaders in your chosen fields but you are all, and I mean this kindly, smacked off your tits on Brexit.

"The rest of the money will come from what ministers are calling a “Brexit dividend”, by diverting the £9bn the UK pays into the EU budget to NHS funding."

So where is the other money going to come from to pay for all the other subsidies that farmers, businesses and other organisations currently receive from the EU if the money is now going to go to the NHS?

More

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 2911091712" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

taio wrote:This is a genuine question - what sort of leadership would you want on the NHS instead of or alongside much needed extra funding?

Like I say, I don't mind money being invested into the NHS as long it is spent wisely.
I really can't trust May and certainly not the likes of Corbyn.
May is a lost cause now and is proving so with her dithering and dallying with Brexit.

Top Claret wrote:Like I say, I don't mind money being invested into the NHS as long it is spent wisely.
I really can't trust May and certainly not the likes of Corbyn.
May is a lost cause now and is proving so with her dithering and dallying with Brexit.

Just wondering what you wanted specifically for the NHS beyond more money.

Another meaningless throwaway statement from mother Teresa

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44495598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

South West Claret. wrote:Another meaningless throwaway statement from mother Teresa

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44495598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why's it meaningless?