... if the combined efforts of Mick McManus and Stone Cold Steve Austin evade the attention of the bank of FKWs in Moscow? The merry band of "Swiss" mercenaries continue. In other news, FIFA is based in Switzerland.

Err..you tell me.

These referees are the very best in the world. So much better than any from UK. VAR cannot compete.

Tickles me how they all have referee's kits on

There isn’t one.

claret59 wrote:These referees are the very best in the world. So much better than any from UK. VAR cannot compete.

Says who? I think the standard of refereeing has been awful in some games.

That one tonight was a real shocker.
It's not even like it was a crowded area!
Not sure really what the Ref and his assistants were doing.
If VAR can't correct such a glaring error by the Ref, there's not much point to it.

South West Claret. wrote:Says who? I think the standard of refereeing has been awful in some games.

They have specific directives, which may be affecting their decision making as we see it.
With regard to VAR and penalty decisions, I really don't understand why they don't refer every possible foul in the box to VAR, or could there be some communication where the video ref can immediately flag up a penalty.
It all seems a bit daft to me.

boatshed bill wrote:They have specific directives, which may be affecting their decision making as we see it.
With regard to VAR and penalty decisions, I really don't understand why they don't refer every possible foul in the box to VAR, or could there be some communication where the video ref can immediately flag up a penalty.
It all seems a bit daft to me.

I know it’s the first WC using VAR but something’s not working properly.

Buxtonclaret wrote:That one tonight was a real shocker.
It's not even like it was a crowded area!
Not sure really what the Ref and his assistants were doing.
If VAR can't correct such a glaring error by the Ref, there's not much point to it.

There was no excuse for missing that foul.

Var is there to aid the ref if he missed something.

South West Claret. wrote:I know it’s the first WC using VAR but something’s not working properly.

Clearly not working as it should.
Are the refs scared of getting major decisions wrong under this heavy scrutiny?

Take tonight's non-penalty.

Was there any point before, during, or immediately after the incident that there could possibly be any doubt in the ref's mind (or the team reviewing VAR) that a penalty should not be given?

Looking at the reply, there was absolutely nothing to suggest anything other than a cast-iron penalty.

boatshed bill wrote:Clearly not working as it should.
Are the refs scared of getting major decisions wrong under this heavy scrutiny?

Reckon that's a valid point, Boatshed.

Spijed wrote:Take tonight's non-penalty.

Was there any point before, during, or immediately after the incident that there could possibly be any doubt in the ref's mind (or the team reviewing VAR) that a penalty should not be given?

Looking at the reply, there was absolutely nothing to suggest anything other than a cast-iron penalty.

Same as the two on Kane

How has the game survived so long without VAR?
How have they already held 20 World Cup Competitions without VAR?
How will they survive without VAR in the European Champions League next season?
Hiw will the Premier League exist without VAR next season?

Those are some of the questions, however, the answer must be to scrap all football until the VAR is sorted because it is obvious that a game that has existed for well over 130 years can no longer continue without VAR because the officials are terrible and don't know what they are doing because they are not used to VAR. Let's have a total break until it is all sorted out, after all, the VAR is much more important than the game itself.

boatshed bill wrote:Same as the two on Kane

That was a bad miss on Kane.
But tonights was truely shocking.

Switzerland...... the home of the perfectly straight and not at all corrupt FIFA, in none VAR cast iron penalty concession shocker......

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:How has the game survived so long without VAR?
How have they already held 20 World Cup Competitions without VAR?
How will they survive without VAR in the European Champions League next season?
Hiw will the Premier League exist without VAR next season?

Those are some of the questions, however, the answer must be to scrap all football until the VAR is sorted because it is obvious that a game that has existed for well over 130 years can no longer continue without VAR because the officials are terrible and don't know what they are doing because they are not used to VAR. Let's have a total break until it is all sorted out, after all, the VAR is much more important than the game itself.

It survived a very long time based on the concept that it was a sport, and cheating was frowned on.
When it became a business everything changed, too much money hinges on the result. I doubt the refs are any worse than they ever have been, but their job gets harder season on season

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:How has the game survived so long without VAR?
How have they already held 20 World Cup Competitions without VAR?
How will they survive without VAR in the European Champions League next season?
Hiw will the Premier League exist without VAR next season?

Those are some of the questions, however, the answer must be to scrap all football until the VAR is sorted because it is obvious that a game that has existed for well over 130 years can no longer continue without VAR because the officials are terrible and don't know what they are doing because they are not used to VAR. Let's have a total break until it is all sorted out, after all, the VAR is much more important than the game itself.

Give over, Ash!
130 years???
Football began in 1992!

boatshed bill wrote:Same as the two on Kane

Much worse. When Kane was being manhandled there were also fouls by other players on both sides happening within the box. There was nothing else to distract in this one tonight.

thatdberight wrote:Much worse. When Kane was being manhandled there were also fouls by other players on both sides happening within the box. There was nothing else to distract in this one tonight.

Still went apparently un-noticed, or do you think the ref saw all the fouls and called it 6 vs half a dozen?
On the basis of your explanation, if everyone in the box commits a foul there will never be a penalty.
(but I do get your point )

Is VAR sponsored? In North America, everything from pitching changes in baseball to halftime marching bands in football are sponsored by somebody. Just another excuse to make money and bother the viewers.

thatdberight wrote:Much worse. When Kane was being manhandled there were also fouls by other players on both sides happening within the box. There was nothing else to distract in this one tonight.

I think that you will find that there was quite a lot going on which the officials saw and ignored but which was ignored by the media because they are so pro VAR that they have to highlight the one incident. The referee will have been well aware of incidents happening at all the dead ball situations and he hears things which we don't hear.

ontario claret wrote:Is VAR sponsored? In North America, everything from pitching changes in baseball to halftime marching bands in football are sponsored by somebody. Just another excuse to make money and bother the viewers.

ГM Fitted Furniture Ltd of владивосток

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:I think that you will find that there was quite a lot going on which the officials saw and ignored but which was ignored by the media because they are so pro VAR that they have to highlight the one incident. The referee will have been well aware of incidents happening at all the dead ball situations and he hears things which we don't hear.

I agree but, I suspect, disagree about the solution. The ref should give the first thing he sees. If it ends up 14 each at half time, so be it. They'll soon learn.

thatdberight wrote:I agree but, I suspect, disagree about the solution. The ref should give the first thing he sees. If it ends up 14 each at half time, so be it. They'll soon learn.

The first thing he sees is two players holding each other so does he then penalise one of them, in which case, he will favour the defender or does he look at another offence amongst the five going on in the area or does he let play develop, remember the first incident and if the ball is in the possession of the non-offending team just let play continue, thus not having any unnecessary stoppage in play.
You seem to assume that the first thing he sees will result in a penalty, however, the reality is that it would result in a free kick to the defending team.

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: You seem to assume that the first thing he sees will result in a penalty, however, the reality is that it would result in a free kick to the defending team.

Why's that? Do only forwards foul on the penalty area? Or is it because refs are predisposed to give defenders free-kicks?

The initial foul is more often the defender. How often do you see attackers not even watching the ball and wrestling? Much less often than defenders who start with the mindset of, "I've got hold of him. If he can't move, he can't score". Forwards have much less to gain by simply holding a defender out of the way.

I didn't assume it's always a penalty in any case. I assumed it's sometimes a defensive free-kick; hence 14 each at half time - not 22 each.

thatdberight wrote:Why's that? Do only forwards foul on the penalty area? Or is it because refs are predisposed to give defenders free-kicks?

The initial foul is more often the defender. How often do you see attackers not even watching the ball and wrestling? Much less often than defenders who start with the mindset of, "I've got hold of him. If he can't move, he can't score". Forwards have much less to gain by simply holding a defender out of the way.

I didn't assume it's always a penalty in any case. I assumed it's sometimes a defensive free-kick; hence 14 each at half time - not 22 each.

Referees are not predisposed to anything, they give decisions on what they see with their own eyes and are a lot closer to the action than anyone in the crowd.
You say that the initial foul is often the defender, however, having played at semi-professional level as a defender, I can assure you that I have had my shirt held, shorts held, in fact, some attackers even managed to put their hand up my shorts and hung on to my jockstrap! Just another thought on this --how many times have you seen a Tony Pulis team score from a corner because a player has blocked off a defender?
This was all useful when I used to referee because I knew all the dodges and there is always plenty going on, in fact, I think that there is much more cheating going on now than there ever has been.
Referees these days are subjected to so much media driven scrutiny that I have to admit that I would never consider taking up refereeing in the modern game and that is the worry when acting as a mentor to any young referee because I have to try to justify VAR to them whilst telling them that their decision is final --which it is outside of the highest echelons of the game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44581546" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think captain/manager should be able to request VAR, like cricket or NFL. One per game which you keep if it's ruled in your favour. I think both England and Serbia would have been awarded penalties.

Spijed wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44581546

They don't show the bigger picture because it does not fit with their agenda. FIFAs new toy is VAR and they are being aided and abetted by the media, therefore, they pull one incident out to highlight things and ignore everything else that is happening in the lead up to that situation and they then push things as far as they can go to get everyone onside with their argument.
We are forgetting that Felix Brych is a very experienced official who is involved in his second World Cup Finals and has a lot of experience at this high level of the game --the media, which consists of how many who have officiated at this level, are trying to make out that he is a buffoon.
Football is so easy when you are sat in your chair with a beer or something else.

It's clear enough that the VAR officials have been told not to see pulling by defenders in the penalty area. Probably they were frightened of having the competition spoilt by too many penalties; but on the other hand, it means the most obvious of fouls are being deliberately overlooked. But as this wasn't an official public directive, I dare say they might amend it any time now and give a defender an almighty shock when he actually gets penalised!

Or then again, perhaps not.

The officials have been good in this World Cup so far and have not dished out cards for every foul, as seems to be wanted by every commentator I have heard. We have become brainwashed in this country because this is the way that referees are being intructed to referee and, because of this instruction, we see yellow cards issued for what should be classed as ordinary, run of the mill fouls.
As a result if this directive, our media are now expressing disappointment because someone who commits an ordinary foul in the World Cup is not issued with a card. I think that this has enhanced the matches because we are seeing the game played as it should be played with tackles being made and officials accepting that some fouls are committed but are not malicious, just simply mistimed. Football as it used to be played to a certain extent.

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:They don't show the bigger picture because it does not fit with their agenda. FIFAs new toy is VAR and they are being aided and abetted by the media, therefore, they pull one incident out to highlight things and ignore everything else that is happening in the lead up to that situation and they then push things as far as they can go to get everyone onside with their argument.
We are forgetting that Felix Brych is a very experienced official who is involved in his second World Cup Finals and has a lot of experience at this high level of the game --the media, which consists of how many who have officiated at this level, are trying to make out that he is a buffoon.
Football is so easy when you are sat in your chair with a beer or something else.

And the problem is that you're being equally choosy to try and sustain your anti-VAR argument. For what it's worth, I am completely against VAR. However, it's in - so what's the point if it's not going to be used?

No-one's talking about Brych. He missed it, decided it was OK. Whatever. We're talking about VAR. What did the FKWs in Moscow see or not see?

The "lead up" (in this instance) is irrelevant. See the picture below - what's in the area that merits offsetting the two Swiss defenders wrestling the Serb to the ground? Don't belittle arguments with stupid comments about "sat in your chair with a beer or something else". That just shows you've lost the argument. The question's straightforward. In this instance, what did the VAR refs see that led them to believe there was nothing to bring to the ref's attention?

thatdberight --You need to pose that question to the referee and the VAR because they were the relevant people.
I will not back down from the argument that is easy to express opinion from your armchair or seat in the stand because I know that that is a fact, having been in the position of doing it on the field in the heat of the moment and sitting in the stand with no pressure at all.
I am unable to say with 100% certainty why this was not referred or discussed by the VAR team and the referee, perhaps it was --only they know what happened, all I did was offer an opinion.
Perhaps they do not like the VAR systme because they feel that it undermines their authority on the field ---who knows? It is very much a new toy and in my opinion it is very much media driven and is trying to make some decisions more important than others and this is bad for the game.

“What’s the point of VAR?” Absolutely nothing. Football survived 130 years with all decisions made by one or two humans, if including a linesman. Now we still have humans making a decision. But it’s decision by committee, and we all know how that can go. It’s neing proved by the fact incorrect decisions are still being made. But hey, let’s stop the game for a minute while we try and make a decision. Because football is such a fluent game, unlike Rugby, rugby league and cricket. It just doesn’t work.

All it’s actually done is given the TV pundits something different to talk about.

Funny how any claret can be against VAR...

We'd have finished 5th or 4th last season with it

starting_11 wrote:Funny how any claret can be against VAR...

We'd have finished 5th or 4th last season with it

But would we? You’re assuming they’d have gone our way.

South West Claret. wrote:I know it’s the first WC using VAR but something’s not working properly.

I do hope that after this WC then at least the authorities get to grips with this obvious “wrestling” in the penalty area no other word for it to be given as a straight forward penalty.

Also the studs down the back of the lower leg as straight red, and the deliberate studs on the opponents boot as a yello in open play.

Unless we act like this at the top level then I’m afraid it will be the green light for further assaults on players right down to Sunday league which no one wants to see.

starting_11 wrote:Funny how any claret can be against VAR...

We'd have finished 5th or 4th last season with it

Strange that. If you visit the boards of every team in the league, you'll find that, if the right decisions had been made, no team would have finished below 13th which would have been interesting.

Swedes robbed of a pen and VAR not bothered. Trip and push combined by German.
Cheating B'tards

IanMcL wrote:Swedes robbed of a pen and VAR not bothered. Trip and push combined by German.
Cheating B'tards

Ref should have seen it, he’s useless or corrupt.

South West Claret. wrote:Ref should have seen it, he’s useless or corrupt.

The latter I suspect. Germany out...deemed not good for world cup.

Pen as clear as clear can be.

VAR appears to be working well in this world Cup. The powers that be appear to have mastered it now.
The game keeps flowing and the offsides are picked up with a good understanding from the officials.

Yeh I don’t like how they are now getting a lot more decisions correct - if this carries on like this what the hell are football fans going to have moan about for several years after a game ?

Plus if we’d have had goal line technology back in the day how would the BBC cope with not being able to show Frank Lampards shot against Germany 6 times a day ?

The whole thing is a disgrace
Bring back hanging.....and workhouses....and typhoid

VAR has missed some significant fouls, but the ones it's corrected appear to have almost all been correctly corrected. I can't remember VAR overturning a referee's decision incorrectly in this World Cup.

It still doesn't make the game any fairer.

The Serbian player was clearly wrestled to the ground and yet was completely ignored by the officials.

Technology will never get rid of incompetence when things like that happen. Var was meant to aid the ref if he missed something so why was something so blatant ignored?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44578303" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's also allowed a penalty to be given to France that never was and denied Sweden one last night.

Spijed wrote:It still doesn't make the game any fairer.

The Serbian player was clearly wrestled to the ground and yet was completely ignored by the officials.

Technology will never get rid of incompetence when things like that happen. Var was meant to aid the ref if he missed something so why was something so blatant ignored?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44578303" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's also allowed a penalty to be given to France that never was and denied Sweden one last night.

No logical answer to why there has still been a couple of mistakes....but the rest of your post does not make any sense. Are you saying it’s better to have had 15 incorrect decisions / mistakes than 2 or 3 ?

TVC15 wrote:No logical answer to why there has still been a couple of mistakes....but the rest of your post does not make any sense. Are you saying it’s better to have had 15 incorrect decisions / mistakes than 2 or 3 ?

But it's not going to get rid of blatant penalty decisions is it if the ones like in the Serbia game are missed? Ref's will still favour the bigger teams and we will still lose out in decisions, like Arsenal.

The Sebia non-penalty wasn't a mistake was it? How can four people, three in the VAR room and the ref miss that?

As I said - no logical explanation for missing some decisions but VAR is in its infancy and the element of subjectiveness will still mean mistakes.
But I think it’s a bit too early to be calling conspiracy theory against the smaller teams - how would you explain them overturning the penalty the referee awarded for Neymar / Brazil ?
But to go back to my original question would you rather have 15 mistakes / wrong decisions or just 2 or 3 ?