I cannot understand how or why Dyche persists with this 451.

It isnt and never has been our best formation.

We have 3 fit centre midfielders and it means we play and risk all 3. We have 4 fit strikers and it means we play 1!!!

Our succesful sides of 2014, 2016 and last season were all built on 442. Ings and Vokes. Gray and Vokes. Barnes and Wood. Thursday we dominated Olympiakos with this same system.

Hendrick has been superb this season - in his proper position. He hasnt and never will play well in the '10' position. And wood hasnt and never will be a lone striker. He is isolated and offers nothing in that role. And our best striker is hung out to dry as the scapegoat in that system.

The full backs havent been at their best. But to change the full backs but not the system is masking the issue imo. Today we had no width, no bite and no creativity.

The insistence on playing a system that doesnt work for us along with our lack of business could be our undoing this season.

Hopefully the break and games against Bournemouth and Cardiff to come will see us get some form and players back. And hopefully we revert back to the system that has served us so well.

What's playing Bournemouth (a team that beat us at home last season) and Cardiff going to do? We're crap, just ride it out.

Expect nothing, never be disappointed.

I don't know whether to take you seriously or write it off as fishing..

Hold on a minute. We've played teams in the Premier League many a time and we have people saying... "We need more men in midfield" and we need to match them in midfield.

So how do you match a very strong midfield in 4-4-2? How does that happen? It doesn't. All that happens is we have fans asking for a stronger midfield - with 5 across.

I think there's a strong case for 4-4-2.

Very simply we’re missing Defour. He’s everything Westwood isn’t.

We started last season 451 and that went pretty well...

Although we don’t have the personnel to persist with it this season. Without Defour and Brady, it’s a completely different proposition

What ever we play we need 2 up front to cause any problems at all as we have zero creativity and relying on long hoofs to a lone striker with an entire defence to contend with ain’t working and is easy to counter.

MDWat wrote:Very simply we’re missing Defour. He’s everything Westwood isn’t.

. Yes we've missed Defour but Westwood has been quite outstanding this season. He barely misplaced a single pass on Thursday or today. I thought we played well overall against a top side. My main concern is Mee and I think Gibson needs a chance.

Dyche totally outfoxed tactically today just like the game at home to United last season.

Without defour and brady 4-5-1 is pointless as we have no creativity as pointed out above.

We should have started with 4-4-2 as at least on thursday we created chances and Vokes should have started as at least he got into positions to miss !

The whole team looked knackered! hopefully its light training from here on in to recharge the batteries before the next game.

Starting 4-4-2 and the same people will have said we are too weak in midfield. Guaranteed.

Uwe Noble wrote:. Yes we've missed Defour but Westwood has been quite outstanding this season. He barely misplaced a single pass on Thursday or today. I thought we played well overall against a top side. My main concern is Mee and I think Gibson needs a chance.

Westwood outstanding? LOL

We need a better right winger also....

For me the issue is not whether we play a midfield of 4 or 5 it's the fact that the central midfield of Cork and Westwood are too lightweight.
How many tackles did you see either of them make today - very few (and no header battles won at all)
The tactics just seem to be everyone falls back into a rigid system and then we just hope the other team will make a mistake and give the ball back to us
Utd had us spot on today - put 3 giants in midfield, win all second balls, and totally boss the game
Plan B was to put 2 up front and hoof it further, Plan C was to put 3 up front and more of the same
Our obvious weakness within the midfield area is going to cause some concern for the rest of the season

Its time for Vydra to replace Hendrick in the no10 role after the break, i know that

Hendrick should partner Cork in the two.

-Mee isn’t as good as Gibson
-Hendrick is a centre mid
-Wood can’t be expected to do everything
-Taylor is a good crosser - but he’s aiming for 1 man vs about 5 because we don’t have the numbers in the box
-Vydra isn’t going to have an impact when we’re going long and he comes on for 5 minutes
-Lennon is a pure winger. Stop asking him to drift in the middle of the park like you did with Arfield. It doesn’t work.

A few takes

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Dyche totally outfoxed tactically today just like the game at home to United last season.

It’s not difficult to outfox Dyche tactically he does he same thing all the time. His tactics are plug and play. Even the subs are entirely predictable right up to the timings.

First half was Men and Boys with predictable tactics. It should have changed to two upfront at half time.

Uwe Noble wrote:. Yes we've missed Defour but Westwood has been quite outstanding this season. He barely misplaced a single pass on Thursday or today. I thought we played well overall against a top side. My main concern is Mee and I think Gibson needs a chance.

Westwood is good as a filler. Playing him regularly and we are very short of quality through the middle. Westwood won’t let you down but nor will be provide enough quality, he’s too limited in what he does.

Uwe Noble wrote:. Yes we've missed Defour but Westwood has been quite outstanding this season. He barely misplaced a single pass on Thursday or today. I thought we played well overall against a top side. My main concern is Mee and I think Gibson needs a chance.

That’s a funny post re Westwood

Both Hendrick and Defour can make forward passes whereas Westwood and Cork are far too hesitant. They're both too similar and predictable, it's easy for teams to press our wingers and fullbacks and keep a basic defensive position in CM without ever having to commit to a press against the two CM's and that's it, out attack has died a death. Probably an unpopular opinion but we should play Hendrick along side Westwood, bring in Vydra behing Wood or go 442 with Barnes who keeps his marker busy every minute he's on the pitch. It means dropping Cork but Westwood has been the better player so far this season.

FactualFrank wrote:Hold on a minute. We've played teams in the Premier League many a time and we have people saying... "We need more men in midfield" and we need to match them in midfield.

So how do you match a very strong midfield in 4-4-2? How does that happen? It doesn't. All that happens is we have fans asking for a stronger midfield - with 5 across.

We will never compete with Pogba, Matic and Fellaini even if we had 6 in midfield. Some wont like it but our best threat (without Defour types) is to bypass the midfield and go direct to two big men up top.

Barnes would have caused havoc with Shaw and Lindlof. Instead they had the easiest game they will ever have.

Dyche deserves a lot of criticism for his buying. Not about prices for players, but to have only 4 midfielders when we play 3 week in week out is very questionable. There had to be someone out there who could have at least given us an option.

cricketfieldclarets wrote:We will never compete with Pogba, Matic and Fellaini even if we had 6 in midfield. Some wont like it but our best threat (without Defour types) is to bypass the midfield and go direct to two big men up top.

Barnes would have caused havoc with Shaw and Lindlof. Instead they had the easiest game they will ever have.

This is absolutely spot on. And surely anyone who was at the game can see this.

How we've missed a clever player that can change things, the likes of Little, Blake or Ings.

How we've missed a clever player that can change things, the likes of Little, Blake or Ings.

beddie wrote:How we've missed a clever player that can change things, the likes of Brady or Defour

Agree

Depends what you mean by 'compete'. The occasional shove,push,kick and foul are all part of the armoury of the modern midfielder but we never got close enough to do any in the first half. Instead we just stood and admired them. We all know Matic has a short fuse but it was never tested. Yes, they are very talented players but giving them the room and time afforded them in the first half was criminal.

Agree 100% with the opening post. I hate to say this, but I am getting fed up watching our totally negative approach to matches with one up front, normally against three defenders, plus our strange substitutions, bringing on three strikers, when the damage is done. I feel sorry for Wood in this system. Lennon and Westwood do not contribute anything going forward, let's hope Defour and Brady are soon fit. Also, Mee had a stinker today and his form this season is poor.
Time for changes, Sean, let's get some positivity back in the team.

Was like a light training session for United today.

Problem was that we were sat far too deep, particularly in the first half. Even when we did win possession and got the ball wide, Wood was isolated in the box and there was no one one the edge of the box to pick up knock downs.

2 weeks off. Get back to basics. Get back to knowing our best side. Get brady and JBG fit and Lennon away from the side. Pity Tarks is going away.

Agree, athletic men against boys.

The honest truth is that I thought Dyche was evolving the system, that year on year it would get better and more intricate with signings of greater technique. Defour looked to be the start of that, unfortunately it seems to be that Dyche has found his system, players like Walters were targeted rather than players who could add flair, technique and pace.
The footballs going stale, i remember when we got promoted under Dyche how good we were at times, trippier with long balls and crosses, Ings with the link up play and the strength others provided. We are a million miles away from the football we were playing back then.

Can't be bothered reading much of the posts however had we played 442 and gone in 3-0 at half time there would be a thread about how dyche got the system wrong.

The final post has it right, boys against athletic men. Is there any player bar Tarky who would get in there multi million pound assembled squad?

SGr wrote:-Mee isn’t as good as Gibson
-Hendrick is a centre mid
-Wood can’t be expected to do everything
-Taylor is a good crosser - but he’s aiming for 1 man vs about 5 because we don’t have the numbers in the box
-Vydra isn’t going to have an impact when we’re going long and he comes on for 5 minutes
-Lennon is a pure winger. Stop asking him to drift in the middle of the park like you did with Arfield. It doesn’t work.

A few takes

Couldn't agree more with everything your saying here SGr, question is how do we put so many wrongs right in time to win the next game, basically the majority of what your saying is laying the blame on dyche's doorstep, I have the ultimate respect for the guy but when he eventually decided to bring on 2nd and 3rd subs today he thought he had the time to discuss wit has Ian woan who it was to bensure and what the plan was, all this is think was on 76 mins and 2-0 down, should this not have been discussed 20 mins earlier, he's body language said everything for me today, one other thing to add also why would you play bardsley and not play long, bardsley and tarks are like strangers, which also brings me to where the 1st goal came from, bardsley and lennon's indecision on who to mark, which allowed them toeventually get the cross in, as you say lennon isn't a defender which comes round to the fact Lowton can can get a cross or 2 in and do he's defensive duties, I could carry on all night but there's now so much wrong dyche has a massive job on he's hands.

NL Claret wrote:Can't be bothered reading much of the posts however had we played 442 and gone in 3-0 at half time there would be a thread about how dyche got the system wrong.

The final post has it right, boys against athletic men. Is there any player bar Tarky who would get in there multi million pound assembled squad?

Even if we get beat, people just want to see us play well, or at least compete for parts of games. We're just not doing that.
The critisim is justified.

In each of the last few seasons United have cruised to comfortable wins at turf moor with us playing both 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 as they are big and physical with quality. This has always made it difficult for us and the way we like to play. However we put up a lot less of a fight today and what I found truly bizarre was after playing so well and so like our old selves on Thursday that we switched back to 4-5-1 today. We then proceeded to plod through a game with little vigour or idea , leaving Man Utd cruising in second gear.

With this 'system', if Dyche persists with it, we are in for a long hard winter fighting relegation, and relegation could be a strong possibility. I can see Cardiff and Huddersfield finishing below us, but as things stand, the likes of Wolves, Fulham, Palace, even Newcastle and WestHam could finish higher than us. We urgently need Defour, Brady and JBG back fit and a total change of tactics from the current negatives ones we are watching.

The system isn't the issue, its how we are using it.

Last year our success was built on this system, and when we started to wobble we went 4-4-2 and direct.

That can work, but we weren't 9 wins and in fourth place by being a direct 4-4-2 team.

Bit of confidence, get some of the injury table, start realising that our best midfielder this season is Hendrick and we will be fine.

I wish I had your confidence, Lancaster, but I don't.

alwaysaclaret wrote:Couldn't agree more with everything your saying here SGr, question is how do we put so many wrongs right in time to win the next game, basically the majority of what your saying is laying the blame on dyche's doorstep, I have the ultimate respect for the guy but when he eventually decided to bring on 2nd and 3rd subs today he thought he had the time to discuss wit has Ian woan who it was to bensure and what the plan was, all this is think was on 76 mins and 2-0 down, should this not have been discussed 20 mins earlier, he's body language said everything for me today, one other thing to add also why would you play bardsley and not play long, bardsley and tarks are like strangers, which also brings me to where the 1st goal came from, bardsley and lennon's indecision on who to mark, which allowed them toeventually get the cross in, as you say lennon isn't a defender which comes round to the fact Lowton can can get a cross or 2 in and do he's defensive duties, I could carry on all night but there's now so much wrong dyche has a massive job on he's hands.

Agree entirely - I think ultimately Dyche has always believed in minimal rotation unless it's absolutely necessary - and Europe has really shaken that mantra up with the constant need to rest players. Hence why Bardsley and Tarks just don't work together, because they've very rarely ever had to. The subs ties into this - he wants the same group of players to get the job done and really only makes changes late on because he has no other choice. We have an international break now which is badly needed and hopefully that'll bring players like Brady and Gudmundsson back into serious contention - I'll be very interested to see the side Dyche puts out against Wolves.

Nobody realistically expected us to get anything from this game despite all the supposed trials and tribulations facing the visitors. I'm hoping that ManUtd.are in the frame for honours/silverware this season because if the quality they had on show turns out to be mere also-rans then I really do fear for our survival.

If the side against Wolves is one up front with Hendrick as number 10, I will be totally p!ssed off.

I agree that the system was wrong today. And a few players played poorly. And we miss our key players. But why has Lennon become the new fall guy??

Cos Hendrick is playing so well people look really stupid if they keep criticising him.

Lennon hasn't been bad, he's just not been anything other than bang average, and has probably tried to pass when he should really shoot.

The problem at the moment is too many players not on form. If we can turn that around, we will be fine. If we can't or stick with players who are not performing, then we won't be.

It might be because he contributes booger all.

Conroy92 wrote:Even if we get beat, people just want to see us play well, or at least compete for parts of games. We're just not doing that.
The critisim is justified.

I'll put it in a different context for you. Look at their midfield of Matic (class whenever I've seen him live, Serbian international who played in the World Cup and was worth £21 not long ago), Pogba (£89m and World Cup winner) and the much maligned Fellaini (also a class player and World Cup semi finalist) and compare that to Westwood, Cork and Hendrick who spent last summer on holiday. Then we can move onto Lukaku (£90m and also a World Cup semi finalist) and compare him to Chris Wood (£15m and plays for New Zealand).

Perhaps world class players who turn up can easily stop teams from playing well, then throw their gaffer into the equation?