It would seem like a back 3 based formation might play more to our current strengths?

GK Hart

CB(l) Mee
CB(c)/Quasi quarterback Tarks
CB(r) Long

WB Ward
WB Lowton

MC Cork
MC Hendrick

AMC Vydra

ST Barnes
ST Wood

Then we have our limited wide options on the bench to change it up on around 60 minutes

Cue abuse haha

I would generally agree it would give us an extra line to hit but Dyche won’t go near that as he uses his wide men as extra defenders so removing 2 wide men will completely throw out his style.

We won’t play anything other than a flat back 4 whilst Dyche is here.

OMG we are now also in a fug as well as a fog.
Must say Id like to see Mcneil on Saturday instead of Aaron

I’ve nothing against wingers being asked to do their share of defensive duties, filling midfield and supporting their full backs.

A problem we appear to have is that they’re currently doing little of the good work off the ball and from an attacking sense (I miss the days of wingers that take a man on and get to the byline), they’re not showing much appetite not ability to do that either.

Something needs tweaking but I’d be amazed if Dyche were to go with three at the back.

You never know, he may surprise us and make these sort of changes, after all the current method isn't working too well at the moment. It is exactly this sort of situation where he is going to have to learn how to counteract other managers who have sussed us out and are easily negating our very predictable set up and style of play.

It is times like this where he "comes of age" sort of speak and learns to adapt and be more flexible. There has been a lot of criticism recently of Lennon, for instance, but we have to remember that he is only doing what he has
been told to do. To venture too far forward or wide is a sin it would seem to me.

I think, for what it's worth, that the shackles have to come off certain players in certain situations in a game
whereby they are allowed to express themselves a little and rid ourselves of our "predictable streak" Maybe then
we will get a little success and opposing managers won't find it as easy to play against us.

Just a thought.

ZizkovClaret wrote:It would seem like a back 3 based formation might play more to our current strengths?

GK Hart

CB(l) Mee
CB(c)/Quasi quarterback Tarks
CB(r) Long

WB Ward
WB Lowton

MC Cork
MC Hendrick

AMC Vydra

ST Barnes
ST Wood

Then we have our limited wide options on the bench to change it up on around 60 minutes

Cue abuse haha

No abuse here mate but just wondering how we are going to solve our dire scoring record with 5 defenders on the pitch?

Some decent comments on this. The general census seems to be that we are far too predictable and easy to play against now and that is, unfortunately, not the players fault, it's down to tactics and that is Dyche's responsibility. Having said that Dyche's options are limited because of injuries and lack of investment during the window. When you look at us generally over the last 30 odd games this has been coming for a long time and I think (and I hope I'm wrong) we need more than a few tweeks to get things right. I think the problems are far more deep seated than people are willing to admit. When you look at the individuals we have we don't look that bad on paper, perm one of three great goalkeepers, two great CBs (when playing to their best form), two pretty good full backs (Ward might be slightly over the hill but he is still a good player), Cork hasn't suddenly become rubbish and he was great for most of last season, Hendrick is far better than he is currently playing, JBG is, when on form, one of the two best players we have, and of course when fit we have Brady and Defour. That leaves the strikers who I have often criticised but, to be fair, they are not exactly poor, they could be better but none of them are bad players.
It HAS to be down to tactics and/or motivation and that lies squarely with the manager. I can't help thinking that he has upset one or two players along the line and it possibly all comes back to not playing the players in Europe who got us there and allowing them to show their skills in Europe. It is not the only possible reason of course because this has been going on far longer than that but it has been noticably worse since the start of this season.
Dyche should have a job for life at Burnley for what he has done but his credit balance at the moment is a little bit low and he desperately needs to re-think the way he does things because, at the moment, the old adage 'in Dyche we trust' isn't quite working for me. He simply needs to be a little more 'open' to other ideas because you can't play a defensive game when your defence is looking as fragile as ours at the moment.

Not sure a change of formation is needed as much as a return to what we do well. Our pressing game used to serve us well but in the last few games we've stopped pressing and just sat back.

houseboy wrote:No abuse here mate but just wondering how we are going to solve our dire scoring record with 5 defenders on the pitch?

Ward and Lowton would be 50/50 defend and attack, and you have a front 3 with licence to create and attack

Can't see this happening at all. But as said above we need to do more pressing and higher tempo off the ball work. Arfield could have done a job for us at the moment. We certainly need Lowton and Ward in the back four and on form. Lennon must be benched for me.

houseboy wrote:Some decent comments on this. The general census seems to be that we are far too predictable and easy to play against now and that is, unfortunately, not the players fault, it's down to tactics and that is Dyche's responsibility. Having said that Dyche's options are limited because of injuries and lack of investment during the window. When you look at us generally over the last 30 odd games this has been coming for a long time and I think (and I hope I'm wrong) we need more than a few tweeks to get things right. I think the problems are far more deep seated than people are willing to admit. When you look at the individuals we have we don't look that bad on paper, perm one of three great goalkeepers, two great CBs (when playing to their best form), two pretty good full backs (Ward might be slightly over the hill but he is still a good player), Cork hasn't suddenly become rubbish and he was great for most of last season, Hendrick is far better than he is currently playing, JBG is, when on form, one of the two best players we have, and of course when fit we have Brady and Defour. That leaves the strikers who I have often criticised but, to be fair, they are not exactly poor, they could be better but none of them are bad players.
It HAS to be down to tactics and/or motivation and that lies squarely with the manager. I can't help thinking that he has upset one or two players along the line and it possibly all comes back to not playing the players in Europe who got us there and allowing them to show their skills in Europe. It is not the only possible reason of course because this has been going on far longer than that but it has been noticably worse since the start of this season.
Dyche should have a job for life at Burnley for what he has done but his credit balance at the moment is a little bit low and he desperately needs to re-think the way he does things because, at the moment, the old adage 'in Dyche we trust' isn't quite working for me. He simply needs to be a little more 'open' to other ideas because you can't play a defensive game when your defence is looking as fragile as ours at the moment.

Spot on pal.
The real killer seems to be the perception that he actually wanted out of the Europa and even the line up against Man U suggested a sort of subservience to the superior club.
It’s ****** fans off and as you say maybe players too.
He’s over thought the whole thing in my opinion
Probably had a softer pre season training wise not played the first team in friendliest then only played half the first team in the Europa games all in preparation for the EPL games and then we come into those not only not match sharp but with the strongest team not only not having played together but not even picked for the league games.
Some players look de motivated and you have to wonder if some like Lowton are being punished for something.
If he had played his strongest team in all 6 Europa games at worst it was like having 6 of the best competitive friendliest you could wish for and at best we’d be in the group stages with the fans, and maybe the players too, excited and I think we’d likely have more points on the board in the League

We are short of a good big midfielder in my view and have been for some time. One to play in front of the defence. Maybe bring in Long / Gibson at CB and try Tarkowski in.that role

I cant see any change in formation doing any good at all, our confidence is at the lowest level at the moment, we have been outplayed in every PL game this season against teams we should be putting to the sword, God help us when we come up against the big guns, heavy defeats are inevitable unless something is done, we are so predictable week after week. a win this coming weekend is a must just to get a bit of confidence back, hope we can turn things round soon.

moaninclaret wrote:I cant see any change in formation doing any good at all, our confidence is at the lowest level at the moment, we have been outplayed in every PL game this season against teams we should be putting to the sword, God help us when we come up against the big guns, heavy defeats are inevitable unless something is done, we are so predictable week after week. a win this coming weekend is a must just to get a bit of confidence back, hope we can turn things round soon.

Outplayed against Southampton?

Just goes to show what utter rubbish people post at times!

No chance of a formation change. It’s either 4-4-2 or the 4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1 which we use. Even if we did revert to wing backs you’d have to favour Taylor over Ward for attacking ability.

The lads need to calm down on the ball, show a bit of composure. The home game against Olympiakos shows that we are capable of playing decent football, albeit we couldn’t find the net somehow. For me I’d have McNeil in the squad when he’s fit, I’d possibly even start him over Lennon and move JBG to the right with Lowton coming in behind him for Bardsley which is a must. Wood and Barnes up top and please play some football lads

Ok spijed, one decent performance but we didnt win that game did we.

Not many wingers are going to go round the outside and swing in a cross from the line when they're played on the wrong side. Wingers ain't wingers anymore, fulll backs are wingers.

duplicate

DCWat wrote:I’ve nothing against wingers being asked to do their share of defensive duties, filling midfield and supporting their full backs.

A problem we appear to have is that they’re currently doing little of the good work off the ball and from an attacking sense (I miss the days of wingers that take a man on and get to the byline), they’re not showing much appetite not ability to do that either.

Something needs tweaking but I’d be amazed if Dyche were to go with three at the back.

Wingers that consistently take their man on and get to the by-line don't really exist any longer, primarily because no team generally allows its full backs to be exposed 1 v 1 with a winger. So they've got to take two men on generally, rather than one. The game has long become about working space and opportunity, which is why wingers and full backs act as partnerships both in attack and in defence.

Fully expect us to line up with two banks of 4 against Bournemouth, its what we know best and I think we need to get back to basics. But I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see either Hendrick back off the lead striker, or Hendrick playing narrow on the left in place of one of JBG and Lennon, to accommodate Vydra behind a striker. Either might give us a bit more control in midfield, and the ability to move the ball through the pitch on our terms - which is the key to giving the wide players the opportunities to get into dangerous, attacking positions. Lennon got one opportunity to attack his full back on Saturday, took it and delivered a very decent cross. He showed the appetite when he got the chance - we just didn't give him enough chances. That's the first thing we need to solve.

moaninclaret wrote:teams we should be putting to the sword

Really?

4-4-2 for me with Wood and Vydra being the first choice 2.

When we're not scoring goals, not sure why we would want to leave circa. 30 mill (that's guessing at about 10-12 mill for Vydra) of striking talent on the bench, especially as Vokesy and Ash have had some success coming on as impact subs in the past.

As others have mentioned the players do seem to be playing with a lack of confidence at the moment, and the body language and general demeanor of most of the players in the last 2 games seems to suggest that, but I'm not sure what they have lost confidence in.

Is it their own ability, their team mates abilities, the formation, the 'framework', the roles they are being asked to play, or something else?

Vintage Claret wrote:4-4-2 for me with Woods and Vydra being the first choice 2.

When we're not scoring goals, not sure why we would want to leave circa. 30 mill (that's guessing at about 10-12 mill for Vydra) of striking talent on the bench, especially as Vokesy and Ash have had some success coming on as impact subs in the past.

As others have mentioned the players do seem to be playing with a lack of confidence at the moment, and the body language and general demeanor of most of the players in the last 2 games seems to suggest that, but I'm not sure what they have lost confidence in.

Is it their own ability, their team mates abilities, the formation, the 'framework', the roles they are being asked to play, or something else?

They've lost confidence because that's what happens when you find yourselves not winning games. It isn't rocket science, its just a bit of human nature. A year ago, they walked onto any pitch with the belief they could win the game. That's clearly not quite the case at the moment, which is a gradual build up of lots of things - some bad luck against Southampton and Watford and to a lesser extent Fulham, the fact our next game was Man United, some injuries disrupting our pre-season etc.

On the personnel, my personal view is that Vokes and Vydra look a likely partnership, because Vydra looks like he wants to burst from deep, so like Ings, he wants to play on the half turn and then face the opposition goal - which generally is well matched to a player like Vokes who likes to play with his back to goal but with runners getting beyond him. Wood is another that prefers running towards the opposition goal to linking with runners with his back to goal, and certainly until Defour is back to help us build attacks from the back better, I think we need a target to play off at least some of the time.

I get that Spice, but we weren't winning games at the end of last season but at least the effort and commitment was still there, pains me to say it, but haven't really seen too much of that in the last 2 games.

Vintage Claret wrote:I get that Spice, but we weren't winning games at the end of last season but at least the effort and commitment was still there, pains me to say it, but haven't really seen too much of that in the last 2 games.

Didn't see United, but there was loads of effort and commitment against Wolves.

claretspice wrote:Didn't see United, but there was loads of effort and commitment against Wolves.

I should have said last 2 away games, I was thinking of Fulham and Wolves, we were a little better against Man Utd.

I don't agree that there was "loads" of effort and commitment against Wolves though but you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine so we'll have to agree to differ on that point.

claretspice wrote:Didn't see United, but there was loads of effort and commitment against Wolves.

By the central defenders and goalkeeper. Not sure it was too evident elsewhere on the pitch.

Tall Paul wrote:Really?

Is this part of the problem now? Have Expectations levels raised and some believe that the Clarets should be putting all the PL team to the sword? Man Utd were there for the taking as they lost to BHA and Spurs.

Read the Samuels article about fine margins, how many points did Pope save for us last season? This is not a criticism of Hart before any jumps to that conclusion.

The point made earlier up about a big midfielder is a key for me. We need a big athletic box to box midfielder who can pass between the lines, break play up and dish out the odd good kicking. I know Milner isn't particularly big but last night he left his mark on Neymar with a strong fair tackle that left the Brazillian on the floor and Liverpool on the break. This type of midfielder does cost a few quid though.

Vintage Claret wrote:I get that Spice, but we weren't winning games at the end of last season but at least the effort and commitment was still there, pains me to say it, but haven't really seen too much of that in the last 2 games.

We went on a bad run in the previous season, before last as well.

While we’re playing fantasy football I like a variation of Wolves’ 343 with a 3412

GK Heaton

CB(l) Mee
CB(c)/Quasi quarterback Tarks
CB(r) Long

LM Brady
RM JBG

MC Cork
MC Defour

AMC Vydra

ST Barnes
ST Wood

Hart

Lowton .... Tarkowski .... Mee .... Ward

Westwood... Cork.... Hendrick

Gudmundsson .... Taylor

Vydra

Happy Yom Kippur BL16

bluelabrador16 wrote:Hart

Lowton .... Tarkowski .... Mee .... Ward

Westwood... Cork.... Hendrick

Gudmundsson .... Taylor

Vydra

I just dont see Vydra leading the line by himself, and that looks like it would leave a fair gap between the midfield and a lone striker

NL Claret wrote:Man Utd were there for the taking as they lost to BHA and Spurs.

Really? They completely outplayed Spurs in the first half of that game and the result to Brighton was simply a mirror image of the one the suffered to Huddersfield last season.

They have some top players and they weren't there for the taking!

Spijed wrote:Really? They completely outplayed Spurs in the first half of that game and the result to Brighton was simply a mirror image of the one the suffered to Huddersfield last season.

They have some top players and they weren't there for the taking!

I agree, it was a badly worded and punctuated rhetorical question.

My post was in response to the "there for sword" or something like further up the thread. After finishing 7th last season there are some expectations that we should beat half of the division hands down when in reality that is not the case. The bookies have us down as regelation favourites at the start of every season and there are reasons behind it. I'm definitely not blinded by 2 seasons in the PL including a 7th place.

You tend to find on UTC that absolutely no consideration is given to the opposition. Traditionally we rarely win at Fulham or Wolves, did I expect to win? In all honesty, no. Do I think we will get 9 points from the next 3 games? In all honesty, maybe 2 but I hope to be proved wrong.

Formation wise it’s quite simple what we need to get back to what we’re best at, and that’s 4-5-1. The key to that though is getting Defour back on the pitch because he’s the key to having 3 different styles of midfielder in there. Two strikers doesn’t guarantee goals, and as we saw against Wolves it often just hands the initiative to a technically strong opposition, and that’s what we’re up against next. Barnes for me is a must at the moment, as he’s the one player we’ve got who bullies the opposition. Because of our lack of options, there’s not much we can do that’s leftfield to get by until the return of Defour, but I think McNeil should come in for Lennon. From the little I’ve seen of McNeil he’s up there with JBG for quality of delivery and he’s much more likely than Lennon to cut inside and have a go. Going back to tactics, they are about much more than just the shape of a team. We shouldn’t deviate too much from playing to our strengths and what got us here in the first place. We do need to tweak things a bit to get more men in the box when we do attack. Until Defour is back, Cork needs to be given more licence to attack the box when we have the ball and use Westwood to sit and protect. There’s no point them dove-tailing, because Westwood doesn’t offer any threat in the opposition box. We also need to work out how to get more from our wingers attacking the far post when a ball comes into the area.

Vintage Claret wrote:I should have said last 2 away games, I was thinking of Fulham and Wolves, we were a little better against Man Utd.

I don't agree that there was "loads" of effort and commitment against Wolves though but you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine so we'll have to agree to differ on that point.

Agreed, we're both entitled to different opinions on that one, so fair play.

But - the only thing I'd say is it is a big deal to accuse a team of professionals of lacking commitment and effort, particularly one which has made its name on those qualities. We've got a team generally regarded as being hand picked for their personality and character and we've never had cause to question it before. Which is one of many reasons why I suspect what you're attributing to a lack of effort and commitment is really a symptom of a lack of confidence and belief.

Didn't Tarkowski have a poor game for England playing at the centre of a 3 man defence?

While I know Dyche won't try this but 3421
Hart
Tarkowski Gibson Mee
Lowton Brady when fit
Cork Defour when fit
Vydra Gudmondsson as 10s
Wood

claretspice wrote:Agreed, we're both entitled to different opinions on that one, so fair play.

But - the only thing I'd say is it is a big deal to accuse a team of professionals of lacking commitment and effort, particularly one which has made its name on those qualities. We've got a team generally regarded as being hand picked for their personality and character and we've never had cause to question it before. Which is one of many reasons why I suspect what you're attributing to a lack of effort and commitment is really a symptom of a lack of confidence and belief.

I was just being honest and saying it as I perceived it in those 2 games Spice, they were very 'un-Dyche team' performances in my view.

We're probably drifting a little off the original thread topic but I think we are both agreed on the lack of confidence and belief, I'm just not sure exactly what aspects they appear to have lost confidence and belief in.

I don't usually get annoyed by performances however in terms of effort / commitment what wound me up was the lack of competitiveness and physicality. Players easily brushed off the ball, caught in possession and not really contesting 50 / 50 balls. There's no aggression to our play or pressing putting the opposition under pressure. It is a Dean Marney type player we need in midfield.

ZizkovClaret wrote:I just dont see Vydra leading the line by himself, and that looks like it would leave a fair gap between the midfield and a lone striker

Haven`t seen any other player this season leading the line either! He couldn`t possibly be any worse than Wood at the moment ( at least he would drop deep naturally?).

If we stick with our banal, predictable 4-4-1-1 Bournemouth will win, in my opinion. It`s time for a bit of flexibility in the Dyche management team -

Hart

LOWTON (mutiny possibilities if he chooses Bardsley) Tarkowski Mee Ward

Hendrick Cork Westwood ( we need 3 in midfield because any combination of 2 isn`t strong/mobile enough)

Gudmundsson Vydra

Roll a dice for the striker