Calling for a vote to overturn the largest democratic vote in UK history and side with the EU what bright spark came up with that policy ?
the Tories will now be in for a decade at least..

But the Labour leadership are only doing their members bidding,i'd be curious how much support for a hard Brexit a poll of Conservative members would find quite high i'd guess.

At last ! Somebody's got the balls to make a decision.
Tories in for a decade at least..............yeah, right.

evensteadiereddie wrote:At last ! Somebody's got the balls to make a decision.
Tories in for a decade at least..............yeah, right.

Tories tend to have longer periods in power than Labour, so it's entirely possible.

They'll probably end up tying themselves in knots but I don't see owt wrong with offering an alternative.

Think I heard this morning that 87% of labour wanted a new referendum, so not betraying to many, just the few.

[quote="wickdkewlclaret"]Think I heard this morning that 87% of labour wanted a new referendum, so not betraying to many, just the few.[/

Yeh but we shouldn’t let facts get in the way of this huge ‘betrayal’.

87% of Labour members not voters I wonder what percentage of labour voters ticked the leave box ..

Labour can't afford to lose 13% of their supporters when they're behind.

SmudgetheClaret wrote:87% of Labour members not voters I wonder what percentage of labour voters ticked the leave box ..

It's a smaller percentage than the number of conservative voters who ticked the remain box.

They won’t campaign for a new referendum with Corbyn in charge He just does what he wants irrespective of what his ‘colleagues’ want.

It was said on Andrew Marr show that 40% of Labour voters voted Leave.

As an ex Labour (cus of Blair) voter this just confirms to me that the party has been infiltrated by people are definitely not for the many..

To call it a betrayal is stretching it a bit, when hes actually referring to the democratic process within the Labour Party. It’s a key principle of his leadership that policy would reflect the views of its membership which of course includes Brexit. Nothing new here.

There has been no shift in Labours view on Brexit.

taio wrote:It was said on Andrew Marr show that 40% of Labour voters voted Leave.

That’s a more believable figure.

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stateofthenation wrote:To call it a betrayal is stretching it a bit, when hes actually referring to the democratic process within the Labour Party. It’s a key principle of his leadership that policy would reflect the views of its membership which of course includes Brexit. Nothing new here.

There has been no shift in Labours view on Brexit.

Agree, it’s a open idea if the votes are enough to call upon, in my view too many are against the EU & are opposed to a people’s vote/2nd referendum. It’d be political suicide for labour to go against what their own electorate initially voted, the numbers are too large.

Corbyn will offer people whatever he thinks they want, as long as it wins him a few votes.
I used to think, He may be mental but at least he does what he believes in.
Typical communist

taio wrote:It was said on Andrew Marr show that 40% of Labour voters voted Leave.

The figure that is generally given is that 65% of Labour voters voted remain and 35% to leave, but 40% is not miles away from this.
Worth bearing in mind too that this is based on 2015 Gen Election voters, and that since then a lot of young people have joined the electoral roll, and a large majority of this group are both Pro-remain and leaning towards Labour, so I think it's fair to conclude that the vast majority of Labour - potential - voters, along with the Unions would not be opposed to a "People's Vote"

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wickdkewlclaret wrote:Think I heard this morning that 87% of labour wanted a new referendum, so not betraying to many, just the few.

87% of 1000 members polled.

nil_desperandum wrote:The figure that is generally given is that 65% of Labour voters voted remain and 35% to leave, but 40% is not miles away from this.
Worth bearing in mind too that this is based on 2015 Gen Election voters, and that since then a lot of young people have joined the electoral roll, and a large majority of this group are both Pro-remain and leaning towards Labour, so I think it's fair to conclude that the vast majority of Labour - potential - voters, along with the Unions would not be opposed to a "People's Vote"

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2/3rds of labour constituencies voted leave.

nil_desperandum wrote:The figure that is generally given is that 65% of Labour voters voted remain and 35% to leave, but 40% is not miles away from this.
Worth bearing in mind too that this is based on 2015 Gen Election voters, and that since then a lot of young people have joined the electoral roll, and a large majority of this group are both Pro-remain and leaning towards Labour, so I think it's fair to conclude that the vast majority of Labour - potential - voters, along with the Unions would not be opposed to a "People's Vote"

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just going off what Corbyn said with the 40%.

I don't feel your conclusion is fair.

claretandy wrote:2/3rds of labour constituencies voted leave.

How is that relevant. There were voters of all parties voting in every constituency.
Pendle voted leave, but it's a Tory MP who went big for leave.
In Burnley the Labour MP supported remain, but a combination of votes from all parties (and none) resulted in a leave majority.
It is clear from all surveys / polls that a significant majority of Tory voters voted leave, along with UKip, so given how close the result was, it's pretty obvious that a majority of Labour voters will have voted remain, and there hasn't been a single survey or poll that contradicts this, (so far as I'm aware).

nil_desperandum wrote:How is that relevant. There were voters of all parties voting in every constituency.
Pendle voted leave, but it's a Tory MP who went big for leave.
In Burnley the Labour MP supported remain, but a combination of votes from all parties (and none) resulted in a leave majority.
It is clear from all surveys / polls that a significant majority of Tory voters voted leave, along with UKip, so given how close the result was, it's pretty obvious that a majority of Labour voters will have voted remain, and there hasn't been a single survey or poll that contradicts this, (so far as I'm aware).

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majorit ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

taio wrote:Just going off what Corbyn said with the 40%.

I don't feel your conclusion is fair.

I said / implied that I was not unhappy with the 40% leave figure, since it's not that far away from 35%.
(Corbyn may have been deliberately erring on the top side, in case someone produced a survey that was higher than the 35%)
Surely you can't argue that a lot of young people joined the electoral roll after the referendum, and that the majority then voted against May in the 2017 election. How else did she lose her majority? (Though admittedly the large number of young people voting Labour wasn't the only factor).

nil_desperandum wrote:How is that relevant. There were voters of all parties voting in every constituency.
Pendle voted leave, but it's a Tory MP who went big for leave.
In Burnley the Labour MP supported remain, but a combination of votes from all parties (and none) resulted in a leave majority.
It is clear from all surveys / polls that a significant majority of Tory voters voted leave, along with UKip, so given how close the result was, it's pretty obvious that a majority of Labour voters will have voted remain, and there hasn't been a single survey or poll that contradicts this, (so far as I'm aware).

It's relevant because if Corbyn goes into a general election supporting a second referendum then he will pay a heavy price for it.

Labours majority in Burnley was reduced last time and even more noticeable was the rise to second in the poll of the Conservatives..totally unheard of in Burnley. Lib dems vote collapsed. Almost certainly Brexit influenced with the Lib dems being very pro remain the people of Burnley being largely leave voters abandoned them. Labour will be doing themselves no favours with a lot of the populace in their key voting areas also being leave voters and the signs were there in Burnley the last time. The champagne socialists at the top of the party proving how out of touch with the common Labour voter they are. Suicide. The Tories will be wetting themselves.

It the Brexit leadership that have betrayed the Leave voters by failing to come up with a vision of what “Leave” actually means. Easy to criticise May’s plan, but they haven’t come close to a workable alternative. The situation is such an unbelievable shambles it’s hardly surprising that more people are talking about looking for a way out.

claretandy wrote:It's relevant because if Corbyn goes into a general election supporting a second referendum then he will pay a heavy price for it.

Evidence?
Corbyn might lose, but it won't be because of this policy. Many centre and Tory voters supported Corbyn last time because of Europe, and will be tempted to do so again if the option is a hard brexit, despite not liking many of his other policies.

nil_desperandum wrote:Evidence?
Corbyn might lose, but it won't be because of this policy. Many centre and Tory voters supported Corbyn last time because of Europe, and will be tempted to do so again if the option is a hard brexit, despite not liking many of his other policies.

I'm surprised you don't see it as a big risk for Corbyn and Labour, particularly in relation to the 35% or 40% Labour voters who voted Leave.

nil_desperandum wrote:Evidence?
Corbyn might lose, but it won't be because of this policy. Many centre and Tory voters supported Corbyn last time because of Europe, and will be tempted to do so again if the option is a hard brexit, despite not liking many of his other policies.

It is very noticeable (to all but the Labour leadership it seems) that most Labour heartlands were high leave percentage areas. You would have to be foolish to think this showing of their hand will work out favourable. To be fair though there are many unusual variables thrown into the next election. The analysts and experts on voting patterns will have their work cut out. The biggest problem is that currently all 3 major parties leaderships are unfit to govern. That is the scary thing.

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Calling for a vote to overturn the largest democratic vote in UK history and side with the EU what bright spark came up with that policy ?
the Tories will now be in for a decade at least..

No betrayal. Simply calling for a vote on the final deal.

The original referendum was a shambles with both sides failing to state accurately how leaving would look.

Since then we have had 2 years of in fighting amongst the Torres whilst labour provide no opposition.

Now we can see the reality of leaving it seems only fair to give people the chance to decide on the terms of leaving.

If people still want to leave then they can vote to leave again. I am not really sure how that is in anyway controversial. It is democracy in action.

taio wrote:I'm surprised you don't see it as a big risk for Corbyn and Labour, particularly in relation to the 35% or 40% Labour voters who voted Leave.

It is a risk, but surely the bigger risk is alienating all the young people who are opposed to May's brexit, and who turned to Labour in 2017, and are their potential voter base of the future, (+ all those who will be on the electoral roll by the time of the next Gen Election)
Also, what's the bigger risk, going with the 35 / 40% or going with the 65 / 60%.?
Who do the 65 / 60% vote for?
It's all interesting, and - of course - uncertain.

nil_desperandum wrote:It is a risk, but surely the bigger risk is alienating all the young people who are opposed to May's brexit, and who turned to Labour in 2017, and are their potential voter base of the future, (+ all those who will be on the electoral roll by the time of the next Gen Election)
Also, what's the bigger risk, going with the 35 / 40% or going with the 65 / 60%.?
Who do the 65 / 60% vote for?
It's all interesting, and - of course - uncertain.

I guess they would lose many more votes from the 35/40% if they were to promise a second referendum than they would from the 65/60% if they don't make such a promise. That's of course assuming it would be broadly on the same basis as last time i.e. Remain or Leave.

Is anyone foolish enough to think that Theresa May will be fighting the next election as Tory leader? Many assumptions being based on that.

.

Clarethalffull wrote:No betrayal. Simply calling for a vote on the final deal.

The original referendum was a shambles with both sides failing to state accurately how leaving would look.

Since then we have had 2 years of in fighting amongst the Torres whilst labour provide no opposition.

Now we can see the reality of leaving it seems only fair to give people the chance to decide on the terms of leaving.

If people still want to leave then they can vote to leave again. I am not really sure how that is in anyway controversial. It is democracy in action.

Some people might not want to decide again & actually feel the first vote should be enough & respected, I certainly do. It's nobody's fault the politicians seem to be making a pig's ear of things, the EU aren't making it easy, if this is not enough proof that leaving was the right thing to do not sure what is. A hard brexit is the only way forward instead of messing about.

Jakubclaret wrote:Some people might not want to decide again & actually feel the first vote should be enough & respected, I certainly do. It's nobody's fault the politicians seem to be making a pig's ear of things, the EU aren't making it easy, if this is not enough proof that leaving was the right thing to do not sure what is. A hard brexit is the only way forward instead of messing about.

Fully agree. If anything has highlighted the reason many voted leave the EUs behaviour a few days ago showed them up for what they really are. When you think those negotiating and spouting off are unelected it makes it even worse that they make a mockery (rightly or wrongly) of a countries democratically elected leader. The more you think about it the more outrageous it is.

Jakubclaret wrote:Some people might not want to decide again & actually feel the first vote should be enough & respected, I certainly do. It's nobody's fault the politicians seem to be making a pig's ear of things, the EU aren't making it easy, if this is not enough proof that leaving was the right thing to do not sure what is. A hard brexit is the only way forward instead of messing about.

I have yet to see any proposals about how a 'hard' Brexit would be implemented to either the short or long term benefit of the British people. I have yet to see any positive forecasts about the benefits to the people living in the UK should the Chequers plan be approved by the EU.

Not a single pie in the sky promise from any of the proponents of the leave campaign nor any of the 'but we voted for it' crowd. NOT A SINGLE POSITIVE OUTCOME FROM ANY OF THEM!!

I have always been a Labour supporter, even having been a Labour Councillor for some years (not in Burnley) and I will still support them whichever way Corbyn takes them over the Brexit issue. Their is more to life in the UK than Brexit - though that seems to be largely forgotten by those in power and the media. Many Tory cuts to popular services have been hidden behind some trite Brexit propaganda that took the headlines across UK media and the internet.

"the EU aren't making it easy, if this is not enough proof that leaving was the right thing to do not sure what is." - We are not being prevented from leaving. What we are trying to achieve is to leave whilst retaining the trade and access privileges without any of the bits we don't like. A bit like being a member of a private club then leaving but saying, "It's OK if I still come here and use the bar and snooker table though, isn't it?"

bfcmik wrote:I have yet to see any proposals about how a 'hard' Brexit would be implemented to either the short or long term benefit of the British people. I have yet to see any positive forecasts about the benefits to the people living in the UK should the Chequers plan be approved by the EU.

Not a single pie in the sky promise from any of the proponents of the leave campaign nor any of the 'but we voted for it' crowd. NOT A SINGLE POSITIVE OUTCOME FROM ANY OF THEM!!

I have always been a Labour supporter, even having been a Labour Councillor for some years (not in Burnley) and I will still support them whichever way Corbyn takes them over the Brexit issue. Their is more to life in the UK than Brexit - though that seems to be largely forgotten by those in power and the media. Many Tory cuts to popular services have been hidden behind some trite Brexit propaganda that took the headlines across UK media and the internet.

"the EU aren't making it easy, if this is not enough proof that leaving was the right thing to do not sure what is." - We are not being prevented from leaving. What we are trying to achieve is to leave whilst retaining the trade and access privileges without any of the bits we don't like. A bit like being a member of a private club then leaving but saying, "It's OK if I still come here and use the bar and snooker table though, isn't it?"

"We are not being prevented from leaving" certainly feels that way, plenty of benefits a hard brexit can offer, if you wish me to post supporting links of that nature just say & I will happily post, agree with whats happening in the UK & media, regarding Corbyn I'd vote for another party if a peoples vote was endorsed.

Jakubclaret wrote:Some people might not want to decide again & actually feel the first vote should be enough & respected, I certainly do.

Don't vote in the next one then, if that's how you feel.

He won't be going into the next GE asking for a 2nd vote. We will have left by then.
He's just hedging his bets as per usual. When the initial turbulence kicks in he will be stood on his soapbox saying "i told you so" even though he probably voted to leave himself

What would that acheive? If you're against labour it makes more sense to want another party to win, I don't think I will be the only person to feel that way if labour endorses the second referendum, as a leaver I'm not frightened of the decision being overturned it's the principle of not respecting the first decision, principles mean something to some people, in response to john.

Jakubclaret wrote:What would that acheive? If you're against labour it makes more sense to want another party to win, I don't think I will be the only person to feel that way if labour endorses the second referendum, as a leaver I'm not frightened of the decision being overturned it's the principle of not respecting the first decision, principles mean something to some people, in response to john.

The first decision was respected. No sane government would ever trigger article 50 without a very good reason. They triggered it because of the referendum result. They respected the result of the referendum.

They then spent 18 months desperately trying to deliver on the promises made by the leave campaign without destroying the country in the process. They have failed. They are unable to deliver what the leave campaign sold to the public in 2016. It simply isn't possible.

It's absolutely right to call a new vote in light of that.

JohnMcGreal wrote:The first decision was respected. No sane government would ever trigger article 50 without a very good reason. They triggered it because of the referendum result. They respected the result of the referendum.

They then spent 18 months desperately trying to deliver on the promises made by the leave campaign without destroying the country in the process. They have failed. They are unable to deliver what the leave campaign sold to the public in 2016. It simply isn't possible.

It's absolutely right to call a new vote in light of that.

I get all that & understand certain parts, it's become a growing concern that May being a remainer wasn't the appropriate person to be leading the show as her judgement & leadership was skewed from what the remit was supposed to be, on that basis everything FROM the initial crucial vote hasn't made any sort of progress for that reason alone, the leave campaign at no point made reassurances to the electorate that a remainer would be spearheading this, even david Davis resigned as things were veering away from the remit. May from day 1 as not even been trying to leave the European Union not on leave terms, the mandate has been a half a**sed effort on her watch.

Labour is a remain party. It is internationalist, not parochial. Brexit does not fit with Labour values.

"A referendum result can be irrevocable or it can be democratic, but it cannot be both."

IanMcL wrote:Labour is a remain party. It is internationalist, not parochial. Brexit does not fit with Labour values.

Jeremy Corbyn is very much a leaver. He voted leave in Parliament and he has never ever campaigned to remain in the EU. His statements have been rather wishy-washy though as he, like the leader of the Tory party have to respect all the various viewpoints of their membership. Labour's membership has been significantly boosted over the past 8 years and most of that new membership is young and active - and mainly of a 'remain' persuasion!

Jakubclaret wrote:I get all that & understand certain parts, it's become a growing concern that May being a remainer wasn't the appropriate person to be leading the show as her judgement & leadership was skewed from what the remit was supposed to be, on that basis everything FROM the initial crucial vote hasn't made any sort of progress for that reason alone, the leave campaign at no point made reassurances to the electorate that a remainer would be spearheading this, even david Davis resigned as things were veering away from the remit. May from day 1 as not even been trying to leave the European Union not on leave terms, the mandate has been a half a**sed effort on her watch.

I honestly don't think a prominent leaver being PM would have made a difference, because the impossible is still the impossible. The EU were never going to undermine the rules of the single market for a departing member state. They were never going to let us have our cake and eat it. They were never going to let us walk away without settling our financial commitments. The promises made by leavers would still have been impossible to achieve had Johnson or Gove been PM.

Don't forget that the door was wide open for one of those to become PM, but they both bottled it and ruled themselves out of the leadership contest. May pretty much won by default because there was nobody of any note left standing.

bfcmik wrote:Jeremy Corbyn is very much a leaver. He voted leave in Parliament and he has never ever campaigned to remain in the EU. His statements have been rather wishy-washy though as he, like the leader of the Tory party have to respect all the various viewpoints of their membership. Labour's membership has been significantly boosted over the past 8 years and most of that new membership is young and active - and mainly of a 'remain' persuasion!

I am a Labour supporter not a fan of Mr Wishy-Washy, who is best left to pantomime.