Greetings art lovers. We all look at visual matter, whether it's beer mats in a pub or puke on a carpet even, wallpaper, magazines and also art.

David Hockney is an artist that concerns himself about how one sees and attempts to record the visual experience. In contrast, the description below is about the image and its illusion potential.

It's something to think about INTELLECTUALLY, if not something to access in person, regarding being able to utilize the information readily, which is virtually impossible because one sees what appears to be, in order to successfully negotiate the perceived external world.

This is about all that could be, beyond what appears to be, as such it's more philosophical than anything else.


Ancient cave paintings of animals etc are pictorial significations, they are a sign or a symbol for something rather that an illusion.

The transcendental context is the pictorial condition, the potential God illusion beyond ordinary cognition maybe glimpsed in part from the well of eternal figuration i.e. all the suggestive capacity of visual matter which is probably universal and timeless, Mars now or the time of the dinosaurs on Earth.

The transcendental context is a feature of the Western Enlightenment and contextualizes the art of all other cultures and eras via the application of the rules of perspective.

Naturally image analysis is a work in progress, it's a field of research in development, particularly regarding A.I., computer vision, subjective computing and augmented reality.

This is my description of how it is, as of 06.12.2018. I've sent this elsewhere and posted it in various places online, but I like to share stuff like this with a non-specialist audience, as on this site regarding the general public.


THE pictorial condition

Via potential perspectival projection, 2D shape represents architectonic form i.e. 3D objects whether depictions of real or imaginary objects.


The matrix of THE pictorial condition


1. The edge of the original 2D shape/s is/are entirely spatially coordinated with the adjacent shape or shapes along the entire edge of the shape.

2. The edge of the 2D shape/s share/s spatial co-ordinates with the adjoining shape or shapes, only at specific points or lengths along the shape edge.

3. The edge of the 2D shape/s is/are entirely independent from any neighboring shape or shapes.

4. The 2D data field contains shape (s) only of the kind described in point 1 or point 2 or point 3 or it contains an amalgam of shapes according to points 1 and 2 combined together or points 1, 2 and 3 combined together or points 1 and 3 combined together.

5. Potential perspectival projections from the 2D shape/s may create pictorial representations (portrayals) of either a single object, or a detail of a single object, or a number of objects or a detail of a number of objects.

6. The matrix of THE pictorial condition applies to all 2D data fields.


Hope this will be of interest as ever.

Can you get a cream for Pictorial Condition?

Is it catching.......

It may catch on... You may want to rub some ointment on your camera lens or computer screen or glasses to see less clearly if you want.

More of this kind of post please. Very interesting read

Huh. What language was that written in.

ontario claret wrote:Huh. What language was that written in.

Heiroglyphics they are pictorial

Pstotto wrote:Greetings art lovers. We all look at visual matter, whether it's beer mats in a pub or puke on a carpet even, wallpaper, magazines and also art.

David Hockney is an artist that concerns himself about how one sees and attempts to record the visual experience. In contrast, the description below is about the image and its illusion potential.

It's something to think about INTELLECTUALLY, if not something to access in person, regarding being able to utilize the information readily, which is virtually impossible because one sees what appears to be, in order to successfully negotiate the perceived external world.

This is about all that could be, beyond what appears to be, as such it's more philosophical than anything else.


Ancient cave paintings of animals etc are pictorial significations, they are a sign or a symbol for something rather that an illusion.

The transcendental context is the pictorial condition, the potential God illusion beyond ordinary cognition maybe glimpsed in part from the well of eternal figuration i.e. all the suggestive capacity of visual matter which is probably universal and timeless, Mars now or the time of the dinosaurs on Earth.

The transcendental context is a feature of the Western Enlightenment and contextualizes the art of all other cultures and eras via the application of the rules of perspective.

Naturally image analysis is a work in progress, it's a field of research in development, particularly regarding A.I., computer vision, subjective computing and augmented reality.

This is my description of how it is, as of 06.12.2018. I've sent this elsewhere and posted it in various places online, but I like to share stuff like this with a non-specialist audience, as on this site regarding the general public.


THE pictorial condition

Via potential perspectival projection, 2D shape represents architectonic form i.e. 3D objects whether depictions of real or imaginary objects.


The matrix of THE pictorial condition


1. The edge of the original 2D shape/s is/are entirely spatially coordinated with the adjacent shape or shapes along the entire edge of the shape.

2. The edge of the 2D shape/s share/s spatial co-ordinates with the adjoining shape or shapes, only at specific points or lengths along the shape edge.

3. The edge of the 2D shape/s is/are entirely independent from any neighboring shape or shapes.

4. The 2D data field contains shape (s) only of the kind described in point 1 or point 2 or point 3 or it contains an amalgam of shapes according to points 1 and 2 combined together or points 1, 2 and 3 combined together or points 1 and 3 combined together.

5. Potential perspectival projections from the 2D shape/s may create pictorial representations (portrayals) of either a single object, or a detail of a single object, or a number of objects or a detail of a number of objects.

6. The matrix of THE pictorial condition applies to all 2D data fields.


Hope this will be of interest as ever.

Sorry Pstotto, you lost me after Greetings Art lovers.

Just wondering Pstotto, can you say that putting the ball in the back of the net be classed as art ?
They say there's an art in being in the right place to score don't they.

Aclaret wrote:Just wondering Pstotto, can you say that ....
They say there's an art in being in the right place to score don't they.

Oh, everything worthwhile is an art form.

The spatial I.Q. of footballers is very important, the arc and trajectory of the ball is a pleasure of perspective, it is an art form of a sort, there's an art to curling a ball round a wall etc. it's a form of visual entertainment.

Incidentally, I've put the ball in the back of the net, the Internet! I saw the open goal with the football of art on the line of an empty net. It's a bit like seeing a £10 note on the floor and you wonder whether to pick it up or not. I couldn't resist so I had a go, nobody else seems to have defined The pictorial condition and the the matrix so I thought RIGHT THEN, I'LL DO IT.

I understand you better when you're on the turps.

This illustration of a practical application of the definition might help. The Impossible Trident Figure was created by D.H. Schuster, an American psychologist and first published in 1964. It is a picture of an 'impossible figure' (confusing to the mind) set in a surrounding space.

However if one puts it in an image then there is a context for it. If we apply the definition of THE pictorial condition then one can solve the puzzle INTELLECTUALLY i.e. all the bits in the image must by the fact of their 2D acreage, represent (portray) architectonic form (depict 3D objects.)

The puzzle presents THE DIFFERENTIATION between what one can see and all that the image might be beyond what one can see. The symbol is the key and the lock to the door of perception.

All that the image might be, as a representation of unseen objects, is 'through the door.'

If one cannot go through the door with one's ordinary cognitive faculties, one can at least have an intellectual appreciation of an idea of how something might be, regarding what could be through the door.

The matrix definition applies to the scope of the possibilities. Nobody yet fully knows what all the results might be because it hasn't been done yet.

Try getting your head around this, could watch it for hours..

http://zoomquilt2.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No thanks. There's hundreds of infernal stuff, but nevertheless if one applies the definition of THE pictorial condition one will have an 'intellectual compass' with which to gauge one's 'deluded' and confused visual faculties, if not to stop the confusion, at least to be aware of a possibility of some sort of transcendence of it INTELLECTUALLY.

Oh well, your loss.

I've had a look and it's a bit like fractals where it's a never-ending journey into information. Really it's no different than any journey, the link. If one goes around the world one is constantly 'going into the picture' of beyond the horizon.

If one hopes for some kind of ultimate knowledge like this, for example with a digital image, then it becomes just a series of featureless squares. That's a false trail and a false conclusion.

If you look at a digital photo of yourself on Photoshop etc. and zoom in to the pixels it doesn't reveal much about the self and yet the picture might supply valuable information about the real, for example photo identity at Passport Control.

Always liked this artists work for impossible pictures.

Escher is a superb artist. Folk who create 'impossible illusions' are very clever. It's virtually impossible to mentally apply the definition of The pictorial condition to such a picture. But if one realizes that all the light and shade is an illusion i.e. it's just coloured ink on paper or coloured pixels on a screen and that one knows that the picture is made up of 2D shapes, then one might have an idea that all that the picture might represent, is not all what one can see.

Pstotto wrote:

Transcendental architectonic Solution.jpg

This illustration of a practical application of the definition might help. The Impossible Trident Figure was created by D.H. Schuster, an American psychologist and first published in 1964. It is a picture of an 'impossible figure' (confusing to the mind) set in a surrounding space.

However if one puts it in an image then there is a context for it. If we apply the definition of THE pictorial condition then one can solve the puzzle INTELLECTUALLY i.e. all the bits in the image must by the fact of their 2D acreage, represent (portray) architectonic form (depict 3D objects.)

The puzzle presents THE DIFFERENTIATION between what one can see and all that the image might be beyond what one can see. The symbol is the key and the lock to the door of perception.

All that the image might be, as a representation of unseen objects, is 'through the door.'

If one cannot go through the door with one's ordinary cognitive faculties, one can at least have an intellectual appreciation of an idea of how something might be, regarding what could be through the door.

The matrix definition applies to the scope of the possibilities. Nobody yet fully knows what all the results might be because it hasn't been done yet.

The image you show is one of many similar. They are described as impossible because when you look at them the mind 'perceives ' them as 3d objects and as such they are indeed impossible. But they are not 3d they are 2d and when the analytical mind observes them they are really actually very simple geometric shapes. The mind, for whatever reason 'wants' to see them as 3 dimensional and hence it is thrown into confusion by what it percieves but it is the perception that is wrong not the shape.

4:20 wrote:Try getting your head around this, could watch it for hours..

http://zoomquilt2.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fascinating but it must have an end unless it somehow returns to it's beginning and is on some form of loop. It is a form of infinite regression I suppose. It is actually quite beautiful.

houseboy wrote:The image you show is one of many similar. They are described as impossible because when you look at them the mind 'perceives ' them as 3d objects and as such they are indeed impossible. But they are not 3d they are 2d and when the analytical mind observes them they are really actually very simple geometric shapes. The mind, for whatever reason 'wants' to see them as 3 dimensional and hence it is thrown into confusion by what it percieves but it is the perception that is wrong not the shape.

As you know these images are used by advertisers in pitchside adverts to appear like advertising boards...

Like the pavement artists whose work appears 3d... we saw some in Cologne this autumn when we were on our Rhine cruise absolutely fantastic.

That's right houseboy. The shapes are the information, the mind is fooled by the appearance of things. One can apply the definition of THE pictorial condition, as a means to differentiate.

Bosscat, that's anamorphic art where the brain is fooled by an appearance of something, see link to the anamorphic art of Felice Varini for some stunning examples of this type of work:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Felice+ ... 20&bih=975" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pstotto wrote:Bosscat, that's anamorphic art where the brain is fooled by an appearance of something, see link to the anamorphic art of Felice Varini for some stunning examples of this type of work:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Felice+ ... 20&bih=975" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know Pstotto my brother whom I go to football with, tells me every bloody week (he studied Art at Liverpool Uni in the late 60's well when I say studied.......... he was an Art Student but some must have sunk into his beer addled student brain)

Art is a well-known route to insanity . One wouldn't want to come face to face with an abstract painting if it were alive!

Bosscat wrote:As you know these images are used by advertisers in pitchside adverts to appear like advertising boards...

Like the pavement artists whose work appears 3d... we saw some in Cologne this autumn when we were on our Rhine cruise absolutely fantastic.

They are very clever in their conception. Once you look at them 2 dimensionally they are quite simple but they are brilliant in the way the artist conceives them in the first place. The first time I came across this kind of thing was many years ago on an album cover for the first Mott the Hoople album (long before they became famous), it consisted of lizards crawling out of a jigsaw and winding up back in it after a circular walk over various objects. It wasn't quite the 'impossible' kind of thing but the effect was similar in the sense that there appeared to be no definite start or finish to the walk. Certain 'chemicals' made it all the more weird, I once stared at the damn thing for about an hour (I think after feeding the bloody lizards, talking to them and realising that they were actually the rulers of planet earth).

Happy days.

What a wonderful thread, thanks Pete.

Been a fan of Escher since my childhood, my father was also fascinated and he was a maths teacher and he likes to analyse the drawings for the angles used etc, he got me hooked.

All I got out of that was something about The Matrix. Sorry. I never was a fan of Keenu Reeves.

Get a photo Ontario and cut out the shapes of things that you recognize, a car etc., and then turn the shapes over and see if you can guess what they are. Then you know the basics that 2D shapes can be illusions of 3D objects. Get that basic fact sorted first.

All I know is that this thread equates with the one on String Theory (or was that a figment of my imagination, too?) Meanwhile, I plan on travelling in one of the two alternative time dimensions that String Theory postulates this weekend, but only if my beloved Clarets win.

For what its worth, I have since further qualified the terms of the pictorial condition and its matrix as follows:

The pictorial condition

Via potential geometric projection according to the rules of perspective, 2D shape represents (portrays) architectonic form i.e. 3D objects whether depictions of real or imaginary objects.

The matrix of the pictorial condition

1. An isomorphic architectonic form representation projected from a 2D shape in a 2D data field, may be entirely spatially coordinated isomorphic edgewise with an isomorphic architectonic form representation projected from an adjacent 2D shape in that 2D data field or said 2D shape in situ in that 2D data field.

2. An isomorphic architectonic form representation projected from a 2D shape in a 2D data field, may share spatial co-ordinates isomorphic edgewise only at specific edge points with an isomorphic architectonic form representation projected from an adjacent 2D shape in that 2D data field or said 2D shape in situ in that 2D data field.

3. An isomorphic architectonic form representation projected from a 2D shape in a 2D data field, may be entirely spatially independent isomorphic edgewise from an isomorphic architectonic form representation projected from an adjacent shape in that 2D data field or said 2D shape in situ in that 2D data field.

4. According to points 1, 2 or 3 or points 1 and 2 combined together or points 1, 2 and 3 combined together or points 1 and 3 combined together, the pictorial condition may be applied to any 2D Data field.

5. According to the above definitions of the pictorial condition and its matrix, a 2D data field may depict a single object or a detail of a single object made up from a single 2D shape or a conglomerate of 2D shapes, or it may depict a number of objects or a detail of a number of objects, made up from a single 2D shape, for example a silhouette or it may depict a number of objects or a detail of a number of objects made up from a conglomerate of 2D shapes.

6. The pictorial condition and its matrix a priori applies to all 2D data fields including patterns, page layouts, newsprint, optical illusions, visual conundrums, movie and computer game stills, cubist, medieval, abstract art etc. plus any other conglomerates of 2D shapes in a 2D data field.

7. With reference to the pictorial condition and its matrix as described above, any inference of spatial orientation that may facilitate isomorphic architectonic form representation beyond an apparent Cartesian extrusion of simple forwards or backwards, up down and side to side (for example, a perpendicular straight line could represent a curved line orientated at 30 degrees to the horizontal), is here categorized as being pictorial only and not to be confused with any notion or proof of any actual existence of anything beyond the three dimensions that create form and space, nor is it necessarily related to any other means that might exist to go beyond the ordinary dimensions of three-dimensional form and space.

8. With reference to the pictorial condition and its matrix as described above, the points apply only to what might be seen regarding isomorphic architectonic form representation and not to any notion of any hidden or overlapping geometric projections that might be constructed by whatever means.

ontario claret wrote:All I know is that this thread equates with the one on String Theory (or was that a figment of my imagination, too?) Meanwhile, I plan on travelling in one of the two alternative time dimensions that String Theory postulates this weekend, but only if my beloved Clarets win.

String theory...
I have some string and I use it to tie things up with ... Theoretically I could use it to measure stuff too, but I use a tape measure for that.

Truth is hard to measure. What is a straight line in curved space? Fiction is a bit easier to describe.

Pstotto wrote:Truth is hard to measure. What is a straight line in curved space? Fiction is a bit easier to describe.

Stop going off at a tangent

It's doing my head in, more than its doing yours! I've had to write the damn description, it's taken me years. 7 hours solid today.

I like the picture of dogs playing pool. Classy. Got one above my fire.

I like that picture too. I'm a sucker for watching silly videos of cats and dogs on youtube, it's a long long way away from bad news.

Anyway, that's just part one of the description, there's a part two, the definition of the pictorial condition and its matrix regarding signs and symbols. I'm still tinkering with all parts of the definition, as of Friday at 18.40. I'm leaving it now for a few days,