When people talk to me about Pele, Best, Maradonna and even Burnley players like Jimmy Mac and and how good they was i appreciate they was clearly good good players but they arent a patch on Ronaldo. Messi Etc.

Football was a different game then. They.wasnt half as fit. Drunk. Smoked. The defenders was simply awful. No disrespect but they wouldnt get into any sides in todays modern game.

The debate can be used for other sports... Eg Boxing. If anyone thinks Ali would last more than 2 mins with AJ then in my eyes you are deluded. They are much more powerful now. Eat better, have nutritionist. Much much fitter and most sports have evolved with new skills.

Even average Snooker players nowadays would of won the World Championship back when Davis and Higgins dominated. The standard apart from the odd player was relatavely poor.

Debate...

Think these two could

Stanley Matthews played well into his 50's

Matthews kept fit enough to play at the top level until he was 50 years old.
Matthews was also the oldest player ever to play in England's top football division (50 years and 5 days) and the oldest player ever to represent the country (42 years and 104 days).

Those players would be playing in an era with greater understanding of coaching, training, medicine, treatments, diets etc.

There is no reason that they wouldn’t be just as good given the same conditions. Let’s not forget they were greats whilst playing on mud baths, with poorer fitness regimes and with footballs weighted down by the wet.

A great then would, I think, be a great now.

JimMcDonald wrote:When people talk to me about Pele, Best, Maradonna and even Burnley players like Jimmy Mac and and how good they was i appreciate they was clearly good good players but they arent a patch on Ronaldo. Messi Etc.

Football was a different game then. They.wasnt half as fit. Drunk. Smoked. The defenders was simply awful. No disrespect but they wouldnt get into any sides in todays modern game.

The debate can be used for other sports... Eg Boxing. If anyone thinks Ali would last more than 2 mins with AJ then in my eyes you are deluded. They are much more powerful now. Eat better, have nutritionist. Much much fitter and most sports have evolved with new skills.

Even average Snooker players nowadays would of won the World Championship back when Davis and Higgins dominated. The standard apart from the odd player was relatavely poor.

Debate...

If you mean we take Jimmy McIlroy in his prime and magically transpose him into our side today, then he'd be no good. Even Glen Little at his best, as much as he's my 3rd favourite player, isn't as good as Dwight McNeill is now.
However, if Jimmy McIlroy's brain was somehow cloned and put into a young irish lad that we could sign from Glentoran for pence, he'd be amazingly good. As would Pele, Best et al.

Longest standing world records.

Jarmila Kratochvílová – 800m – 34 Years
Yuriy Sedykh – Hammer – 31 Years
Jürgen Schult – Discuss – 31 Years
Stefka Kostadinova – High Jump – 30 Years
Florence Griffith Joyner – 100m – 29 Years
Galina Chistyakova – Long Jump – 29 Years

JimMcDonald wrote:When people talk to me about Pele, Best, Maradonna and even Burnley players like Jimmy Mac and and how good they was i appreciate they was clearly good good players but they arent a patch on Ronaldo. Messi Etc.

Football was a different game then. They.wasnt half as fit. Drunk. Smoked. The defenders was simply awful. No disrespect but they wouldnt get into any sides in todays modern game.

The debate can be used for other sports... Eg Boxing. If anyone thinks Ali would last more than 2 mins with AJ then in my eyes you are deluded. They are much more powerful now. Eat better, have nutritionist. Much much fitter and most sports have evolved with new skills.

Even average Snooker players nowadays would of won the World Championship back when Davis and Higgins dominated. The standard apart from the odd player was relatavely poor.

Debate...

I agree with most of what you’re saying, with regards to boxing, the very top heavy weights these days whist perhaps not as skillfull, the power difference is ridiculous, hence why they wouldn’t fight 15 rounds. In comparison they are more like super heavy weights, Fury would play with Tyson

Lets be honest the standard of football back in the 60's was rubbish. Even with the fitness our championship winning team would have been lower league at best

I look at the footage from the 66 world cup and reckon they would make even our Dycheball look like Barcelona

Burnley1989 wrote:I agree with most of what you’re saying, with regards to boxing, the very top heavy weights these days whist perhaps not as skillfull, the power difference is ridiculous, hence why they wouldn’t fight 15 rounds. In comparison they are more like super heavy weights, Fury would play with Tyson

Tyson would play with Fury, do you reckon? I can sort of see what you’re saying with Ali but Tysons speed and movement, surely that’s would flumux the Gypsy King??

4:20 wrote:Jarmila Kratochvílová – 800m – 34 Years

'She' was that dodgy looking one who looked more 'male' than many men!

Winstonswhite wrote:Tyson would play with Fury, do you reckon? I can sort of see what you’re saying with Ali but Tysons speed and movement, surely that’s would flumux the Gypsy King??

I just think the 5ft 10” to 6ft 9” would make it hard for Tyson to get close enough, I know what you mean though

Devils_Advocate wrote:Lets be honest the standard of football back in the 60's was rubbish. Even with the fitness our championship winning team would have been lower league at best

I look at the footage from the 66 world cup and reckon they would make even our Dycheball look like Barcelona

I couldn't agree less.

Quicknick wrote:I couldn't agree less.

You must be an OAP

Devils_Advocate wrote:You must be an OAP

You must be young with no sense of history.

Quicknick wrote:You must be young with no sense of history.

Well at least one of us was correct with our assumptions of each other

There isn't a heavyweight around that could lace Ali's boots.....nor has there been for many a moon.

If you really believe there is, then I cant help you.

Devils_Advocate wrote:Well at least one of us was correct with our assumptions of each other

Sounds like we were both wrong, then.

4:20 wrote:Longest standing world records.

Jarmila Kratochvílová – 800m – 34 Years
Yuriy Sedykh – Hammer – 31 Years
Jürgen Schult – Discuss – 31 Years
Stefka Kostadinova – High Jump – 30 Years
Florence Griffith Joyner – 100m – 29 Years
Galina Chistyakova – Long Jump – 29 Years

All drug assisted. So irrelevant.

DCWat wrote:Those players would be playing in an era with greater understanding of coaching, training, medicine, treatments, diets etc.

There is no reason that they wouldn’t be just as good given the same conditions. Let’s not forget they were greats whilst playing on mud baths, with poorer fitness regimes and with footballs weighted down by the wet.

A great then would, I think, be a great now.

Agree with all of that treatments being number 1. In the 60s a cartilage op could end a career now they have keyhole surgery and are back in weeks.

Clearly the greats of the past would still be greats today.

I mean, take Don Bradman, how many Tests did he play against Bangladesh, Zimbabwe or Afghanistan? How many rock hard, perfect, covered batting decks did he bat on? How many runs did he score with a lightweight trampoline of a blade on grounds with boundary ropes dragged in?

Different time, different conditions and different challenges but you’re only as good as what you come up against.

4:20 wrote:Longest standing world records.

Jarmila Kratochvílová – 800m – 34 Years
Yuriy Sedykh – Hammer – 31 Years
Jürgen Schult – Discuss – 31 Years
Stefka Kostadinova – High Jump – 30 Years
Florence Griffith Joyner – 100m – 29 Years
Galina Chistyakova – Long Jump – 29 Years

As great as they were to watch JK and FGJ were built like men but we'll never know if they were steroid enhanced although most opinions would suggest yes.

Foulthrow wrote:Clearly the greats of the past would still be greats today.

I mean, take Don Bradman, how many Tests did he play against Bangladesh, Zimbabwe or Afghanistan? How many rock hard, perfect, covered batting decks did he bat on? How many runs did he score with a lightweight trampoline of a blade on grounds with boundary ropes dragged in?

Different time, different conditions and different challenges but you’re only as good as what you come up against.

Exactly.

Reading some of the nonsense higher up this thread makes me realise how privileged I was to watch Jimmy Mac perform on a weekly basis for Burnley.

How about Jesse Owens ? A supreme athlete running in basic gear on cinder tracks. I think he could still compete against today's athletes

Probably but a pretty pointless comparison in reality in my humble.

If we simply just pick them up and drop them into whatever sport it is what they did then they couldn’t compete at the level they did today.

If we give them the same training, diet, facilities etc then they’d still be great.

George Best couldn’t compete in the PL today how he was.

Give a 17 year old George Best everything what Messi, Ronaldo have had and he’ll be a great in the modern game.

If for the sake of argument we accept the hypothesis that modern players are better than old players, there are only two reasons for it.

One, environment - scientific knowledge, diet, money that means they can work at it full time, better equipment, etc.

Two, genetics.

There is no difference in genetics. Humanity now has the same genes as it had ten thousand years ago - they aren't inventing new ones. So the only difference is in environment - which means, if Jimmy McIlroy had been born in 1990, he would be dazzling Turf Moor and getting into World XI's like he did in the sixties.

dsr wrote:There is no difference in genetics. Humanity now has the same genes as it had ten thousand years ago - they aren't inventing new ones. So the only difference is in environment - which means, if Jimmy McIlroy had been born in 1990, he would be dazzling Turf Moor and getting into World XI's like he did in the sixties.

But, if he had been born in 1990 he would be playing for one of the top clubs rather than lickle old Burnley

Of course they would compete if the playing field was level. Give them the same facilities, equipment, training and sports science and they would easily be top players.
However, let's have a laugh and transport. Modern players to the 60s and 70s.
Lets see how their reaction to fake head butts, screams when tackled, and diving goes down with Ron Harris, Norman Hunter, Dave Mackay etc.
Lets see John Stones trying to shepherd the ball over the goal line with Andy Lochead. Let's see how they pirouette on the Baseball Ground in tbe 70s.
Most past players would be fine in our era, most modern players wouldn't make it in the past.

JohnMac wrote:As great as they were to watch JK and FGJ were built like men but we'll never know if they were steroid enhanced although most opinions would suggest yes.

Aye, I'm inclined to agree. I still think Jonathan Edwards' triple jump was clean though, that was a great moment, held it since 1995, quite incredible, I may have Blighty tinted specs on though.

I often ask this question to my Dad (born in 56, he classes 'his team' as the Adamson 70s side but started going in the 60s and his favourite ever player is Ralph Coates).

He says exactly what the other lads on this thread have said, stick them as they were directly into our team and they wouldn't cope with the fitness, obviously. Give them the same opportunities and, in his words "Coates would be a £50m player".

How do you think Messi would do on a bog in the mid 60s? It's all relative.

This question has been asked many times over the years and I have never quite understood why. Mathews, Pele etc. would, if playing today, have access to the same fitness regimes and dietry advice as modern footballers. They would have the same training. These guys were truly gifted individuals who would be even better with todays training and facilities. They would benefit from playing on 'bowling green pitches' as opposed to something a hippo would relish. There is absolutely no reason to assume that they wouldn't still be legends, considering some of todays over-paid Prima Donnas who seem to get wages based on reputation rather than actual output. If George Best were playing today he would still be making defenders look stupid, especially with the protection given to players by referees these days because don't forget players like Best etc. were playing and being successful while it was still legal to carry out GBH on the pitch.

Of course the greats of yesterday would still be great today, you cannot hold back natural talent in any area of expertise at any time. Comparing individual footballers from different eras is a bit like comparing armies from different eras, modern soldiers and equipmet would wipe the floor with our fathers and grandfathers who defeated Hitler but it doesn't make them any less brave or skilled. The great Roman army that conquered the world wouldn't last 5 minutes against modern soldiers but they were supreme against others at the time. You simply cannot compare in that way.

> Give a 17 year old George Best everything what Messi, Ronaldo have had and he’ll be a great in the modern game.

At least until he picked up his first week's wages.

Dyched wrote:If we simply just pick them up and drop them into whatever sport it is what they did then they couldn’t compete at the level they did today.

If we give them the same training, diet, facilities etc then they’d still be great.

George Best couldn’t compete in the PL today how he was.

Give a 17 year old George Best everything what Messi, Ronaldo have had and he’ll be a great in the modern game.

He'd just p!ss it all away quicker as he'd have sh!tloads more money.

When you watch the old clips of Best with the ball glued to his feet, making the top class defenders of the day look daft, you just say yes, he'd fit in comfortably with the greats of today.
He'd be doing that, as said on here, without any protection from the tackles that went in, on ploughed fields & mud heaps.
Give him a manager that was able to keep his head screwed on, and you'd have Messi & Ronaldo asking George for his autograph!

Here’s what I reckon. Mike Tyson would banjo that fat tub of lard fury. Without even a seconds doubt, he would spark him rigid in the first round. No two ways about it and I won’t hear anything else. If you watched Iron Mike in his prime, he’s rattled big men all over the place. Some of them were even beaten BEFORE they got in the ring. Fury would be shitting bricks, cos he knows what I know. He’s NOT a fighter. Christ almighty, give me three bottles of that Tyskie, and I’d fight him!. Soft shite he is.

As for footballers, if you were to bring George best into the PL, with the training regime, billiard table pitches and healthy lifestyle they have now, he would bamboozle EVERYONE. FACT.

Add Pele, maracheatingbastard and Cruyff to that list also. There will be many others too. Undoubted class and skill will ALWAYS shine through.

Steve1956 wrote:

image.jpeg

Think these two could

OK let me be the one to ask....one is Willie Morgan but who is the other

BennyD wrote:He'd just p!ss it all away quicker as he'd have sh!tloads more money.

That may not be the case as young players are looked after far better than in Bests day. Best was taken away from his home in Belfast and transported to Manchester and basically left to get on with it. Of course it is possible that he would have gone the same way, especially considering the money he would be earning, but society was different then, it was the era of the swinging 60's, free love and different standards. Who knows what he would have done but it shouldn't be a given that a young and talented man should come to such an end these days. Club specialists, agents and advisers are now all there to help these young very rich guys.

Petersa wrote:OK let me be the one to ask....one is Willie Morgan but who is the other

I was wondering that, too - a quick check on Willie Morgan's Twitter account shows that it's Jim McCalliog, ex-Wednesday, Wolves, United, Soton and Scotland midfielder

Sheffield Claret wrote:I was wondering that, too - a quick check on Willie Morgan's Twitter account shows that it's Jim McCalliog, ex-Wednesday, Wolves, United, Soton and Scotland midfielder

Thanks Sheffield. .......remember McCalliog........was he that good in his prime?

Can't say I remember too much about McCalliog - setting up the winner in the 1976 cup final probably his most famous moment and played for a good Scotland side in the late 60s - nowhere near as good as Willie Morgan!

Someone more famous pictured with Willie Morgan here - his best man, Johnny Mathis

Sheffield Claret wrote:Can't say I remember too much about McCalliog - setting up the winner in the 1976 cup final probably his most famous moment and played for a good Scotland side in the late 60s - nowhere near as good as Willie Morgan!

Saw him play against us more than once, both for Weds and Wolves. More than decent.
Can't remember if he was in the Manure side we drew with on the Turf for what was (one of) Best's comebacks.

houseboy wrote:That may not be the case as young players are looked after far better than in Bests day. Best was taken away from his home in Belfast and transported to Manchester and basically left to get on with it. Of course it is possible that he would have gone the same way, especially considering the money he would be earning, but society was different then, it was the era of the swinging 60's, free love and different standards. Who knows what he would have done but it shouldn't be a given that a young and talented man should come to such an end these days. Club specialists, agents and advisers are now all there to help these young very rich guys.

There were specialists looking after him before and after his liver transplant, but that didn't stop him drinking himself to death. I honestly doubt anything would have.

BennyD wrote:There were specialists looking after him before and after his liver transplant, but that didn't stop him drinking himself to death. I honestly doubt anything would have.

That's a whole different argument really. He was, by then, already on the very slippery slope of alcoholism, a road not easy to get back off. I'm talking about the level of support given now to teenagers who are about to become adored by millions and have more money than you can spend in 10 lifetimes. I can't be too critical of someone like Best because I was involved in the music scene for a good number of years (mid 20's onwards) and have often said that, given my life then, on limited income, I am not certain, if I had made the big time and earned millions, I would have come out the other side alive. The lure of drink, drugs and sex (yes, even that can kill) is a very hard thing to ignore if you have unlimited money and it's offered at every turn (no, that didn't happen to me but even at the 'lower levels' it is hard not to get involved to some degree, and I did).

We really shouldn't be too critical of young men (or women), many of whom come from poor backgrounds, who go off the rails when given access to extreme fame and fortune. There is hardly a day goes by that I don't miss being in music but there is part of me that thinks that maybe I was saved from myself at the time. Who knows.