With the Tories in disarray this would be a very good time for Labour to ditch Corbyn and get an electable Laboir leader.This needs to be followed by a complete revamp of the Shadow Cabinet to remove Abbot and her ilk
The gains made under Tony Blair have been destroyed by Corbyn and he needs to go before the party sinks any lower

The gains made under Blair were destroyed long before Corbyn came along.

Labour are that dumb of late they would probably replace him with Diane

The only person who is more "Dictator for life" than Jeremy Corbyn is Nigel Farage.

Until Labour reform their constitution and voting procedures for a new leader, even if they lose Corbyn they'll end up with the next Momentum backed candidate.

Currently that would be John McDonnell who is arguably the only man in the PLP who is more left wing than Corbyn. Failing him, it would be one of the unworldly young ideologue recruits like Rebecca Long-Bailey.

Lancasterclaret wrote:The only person who is more "Dictator for life" than Jeremy Corbyn is Nigel Farage.

I know that you're not a big Corbyn fan but that just seems like ******** to me. Corbyn has been selected by MPs and then had the members (and anyone can become a member, it's not a closed shop, albeit there were some shenanigans on who could vote) vote for him. Twice.

On the other hand the outgoing Tory and LibDem leaders were selected by MPs and that was it. No vote for the members.

aggi wrote:I know that you're not a big Corbyn fan but that just seems like ******** to me. Corbyn has been selected by MPs and then had the members (and anyone can become a member, it's not a closed shop, albeit there were some shenanigans on who could vote) vote for him. Twice.

On the other hand the outgoing Tory and LibDem leaders were selected by MPs and that was it. No vote for the members.

I thought the MPs narrowed it down to the final two and then the members voted on their choice in the Tory party? They had a choice between May and Leadsom last time.

Somethingfishy wrote:I thought the MPs narrowed it down to the final two and then the members voted on their choice in the Tory party? They had a choice between May and Leadsom last time.

Leadsom conveniently dropped out before it went to the members so May came in unopposed. By all accounts a lot of the MPs don't rate the members that highly and don't really want them making the decision if it can be avoided.

aggi Corbyn and momentum members are Marxist.and have just hijacked the Labour party

Woodleyclaret wrote:With the Tories in disarray this would be a very good time for Labour to ditch Corbyn and get an electable Laboir leader.This needs to be followed by a complete revamp of the Shadow Cabinet to remove Abbot and her ilk
The gains made under Tony Blair have been destroyed by Corbyn and he needs to go before the party sinks any lower

Corbyn is doing a fine job were he his, Unelectable.

wembley94 wrote:aggi Corbyn and momentum members are Marxist.and have just hijacked the Labour party

Have they closed the membership. Is there anything to stop a load of other people joining and voting a different way?

The Overton Window has been pushed so far to the right some of you lot would view Godfrey off Dad’s Army as a radical extremist.

aggi wrote:I know that you're not a big Corbyn fan but that just seems like ******** to me. Corbyn has been selected by MPs and then had the members (and anyone can become a member, it's not a closed shop, albeit there were some shenanigans on who could vote) vote for him. Twice.

On the other hand the outgoing Tory and LibDem leaders were selected by MPs and that was it. No vote for the members.

He's got the membership wrapped around his little finger aggi. Everything he does and he gets a round of applause. its a cult, and cult leaders don't get deselected ever.

After Peterborough, he's stronger than ever despite the local results and the European results.

Its well weird from an outsider looking in.

RMutt wrote:The Overton Window has been pushed so far to the right some of you lot would view Godfrey off Dad’s Army as a radical extremist.

Who do you think you are kidding?

I don't think it will happen, but I would love to see Diane Abbott as leader of Labour: that would be the biggest, watchable joke ever. As has been pointed out already, Corbyn is the true luvvie of Momentum and nothing will change that for the time being.

Vino blanco wrote:I don't think it will happen, but I would love to see Diane Abbott as leader of Labour: that would be the biggest, watchable joke ever. As has been pointed out already, Corbyn is the true luvvie of Momentum and nothing will change that for the time being.

They have realised to be electable they need a leader more mainstream and moderate than Corbyn.
https://images.app.goo.gl/QrP1o8gj54PnP8PY6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret wrote:He's got the membership wrapped around his little finger aggi. Everything he does and he gets a round of applause. its a cult, and cult leaders don't get deselected ever.

After Peterborough, he's stronger than ever despite the local results and the European results.

Its well weird from an outsider looking in.

As above, have they closed the membership? Is there anything to stop a load of other people joining and voting a different way?

I agree that he seems surprisingly Teflon for a party that's doing pretty poorly but there's a long gap between that and "Dictator for Life".

Vino blanco wrote:I don't think it will happen, but I would love to see Diane Abbott as leader of Labour: that would be the biggest, watchable joke ever. As has been pointed out already, Corbyn is the true luvvie of Momentum and nothing will change that for the time being.

Not sure think the next prime minister of this country could be the biggest watchable joke ever judging by the final list of contenders!

Corbyn is quite simply the nastiest party leader I have ever known. Totally totalitarian. He doesn't recognise democracy. You're not allowed to disagree with him. His past antics stink to high heaven and, up to now, he's got away with it. He thinks that he is untouchable but there has to come a point when that ends and I for one hope that time isn't far away. Under his watch the Labour Party has sunk to depths that I never thought were imaginable. I just hope that he rots in hell.

Corbyn has spent his entire political career as a self-indulgent rebel wearing his non-conformance as a fashion statement. He put you in mind of a very poor “alternative comedian” desperately looking for a way to shock because his material and delivery were so feeble. He could behave like that because he never had to accept any responsibility for anything. Now that he is in a position of power he demands blind obedience from everybody, no dissent to be tolerated. The man has no moral fibre at all.

In which speech has he called for ‘blind obedience’?

It’s very touching to see the great concern some people have for the Labour Party. Especially those who would never vote for it. Wasn’t long ago that quite a few joined Labour for three quid and voted for him as leader. It reminds me of the German war leader,Ludendorff - who allowed Lenin to travel through Germany to play a part in the Russian Revolution, and who widened the scope of Germany’s u-boat campaign to include American ships, brilliantly sowing the seeds of Germany’s destruction in the second and first world wars.

AndrewJB wrote:In which speech has he called for ‘blind obedience’?

It’s very touching to see the great concern some people have for the Labour Party. Especially those who would never vote for it.

I have voted Labour for all of my adult life but I cannot in good conscience vote Labour at the moment. I feel totally disenfranchised

AndrewJB wrote:In which speech has he called for ‘blind obedience’?

It’s very touching to see the great concern some people have for the Labour Party. Especially those who would never vote for it.

Whilst I am not a natural Labour supporter I voted Labour in the GE’s of 1997 and 2001. Rossendale is a marginal and Labour needs the likes of myself to switch over but until they get a a more Centre Left leader they have no chance of getting my vote.

Dy1geo wrote:Whilst I am not a natural Labour supporter I voted Labour in the GE’s of 1997 and 2001. Rossendale is a marginal and Labour needs the likes of myself to switch over but until they get a a more Centre Left leader they have no chance of getting my vote.

I think given when you voted for Labour, it could be described as “against a Tory Party that was all over the place” Unless the Iraq War played a part in why you didn’t vote Labour in 2005, or Labour was too rightwing for you before Corbyn (as it was for me), then I’d imagine Labour will have to find a way of winning without your vote. Where they were under Brown and Miliband (even had Blair remained), Labour was a sinking ship. It can’t be emphasised enough how the return to “people before profit” policies has revitalised Labour. It has opened up active political interest in young people, and many who didn’t vote before. For those who insist that to win power Labour has to be “centrist” (and by what standard would you judge that?), look at how badly that worked in 2010 and 2015. After five years of austerity, Miliband should have wiped the floor with Cameron, but instead he chose to back austerity (just not as bad), and had a wishy-washy policy on rail and utilities. Instead the SNP - who vigorously opposed austerity - destroyed Labour in Scotland. Granted, the press painted Miliband as a dangerous commie, but that was only to mobilise Conservative support. Those who would have liked a more radical Labour Party just stayed home, wishing they could have voted SNP.

aggi wrote:As above, have they closed the membership? Is there anything to stop a load of other people joining and voting a different way?

I agree that he seems surprisingly Teflon for a party that's doing pretty poorly but there's a long gap between that and "Dictator for Life".

Nothing at all, but you are joining an organisation that is dominated by left of the party now, and any critiscism of Corbyn and the way he does things are either "smears" or "Main stream media bias"

Dunno if you watch those excellent little films by John Harris of the Guardian as he travels around the country at the moment, but Corbyn even uses the expression "Mainstream Media bias" at a campaign rally. Harris, a lifelong socialist, is lost for words and quite rightly wonders where this is all going to end (he's clearly comparing the Brexit Party and Labour in their attitude to the media).

Farage is dictator for life because his party is effectively Nigel Farage Ltd with no mechanism for him to be removed. And yet he gets lots of votes.

Corbyn can in theory be voted out, but it isn't going to happen when absolutely everything can be blamed (and crucially believed) on absolutely anyone else.

He's lost three elections in a row and win one seat in a tight by-election (which I put down to Farage being marmite rather than Lab being great (though they did run a good campaign). And he's as safe as houses.

Thats what I mean by "Dictator for life"

AndrewJB wrote:I think given when you voted for Labour, it could be described as “against a Tory Party that was all over the place” Unless the Iraq War played a part in why you didn’t vote Labour in 2005, or Labour was too rightwing for you before Corbyn (as it was for me), then I’d imagine Labour will have to find a way of winning without your vote. Where they were under Brown and Miliband (even had Blair remained), Labour was a sinking ship. It can’t be emphasised enough how the return to “people before profit” policies has revitalised Labour. It has opened up active political interest in young people, and many who didn’t vote before. For those who insist that to win power Labour has to be “centrist” (and by what standard would you judge that?), look at how badly that worked in 2010 and 2015. After five years of austerity, Miliband should have wiped the floor with Cameron, but instead he chose to back austerity (just not as bad), and had a wishy-washy policy on rail and utilities. Instead the SNP - who vigorously opposed austerity - destroyed Labour in Scotland. Granted, the press painted Miliband as a dangerous commie, but that was only to mobilise Conservative support. Those who would have liked a more radical Labour Party just stayed home, wishing they could have voted SNP.

Blair won three general elections in a row, Corbyn lost to Theresa ****ing May.

But they were a sinking ship then, and revitalised now. Really can't see where Lancaster is getting this 'cult' idea from.

NottsClaret wrote:Blair won three general elections in a row, Corbyn lost to Theresa ****ing May.

But they were a sinking ship then, and revitalised now. Really can't see where Lancaster is getting this 'cult' idea from.

Fair enough

No doubt they are more revitalised in some areas but has that compensated the loss of the ones that have left or don't vote for them anymore?

Just realised you were taking the ****! Apologies, not had my morning coffee yet!

NottsClaret wrote:Blair won three general elections in a row, Corbyn lost to Theresa ****ing May.

But they were a sinking ship then, and revitalised now. Really can't see where Lancaster is getting this 'cult' idea from.

Do you think Blair would have won in 2010, or 2015? I don't, because he was becoming steadily more unpopular. Would you say the surge in membership doesn't represent a revitalisation? I would say it does. Do you think Labour would have inspired the same level of support in 2017 had another leadership candidate won in 2015, or Owen Smith in 2016?

Lancasterclaret wrote:Fair enough

No doubt they are more revitalised in some areas but has that compensated the loss of the ones that have left or don't vote for them anymore?

True but the the Blair style Labour voters are still well represented to the right of the current Labour party whereas previously they were a lot of left wing and young voters represented by today's Labour party who felt totally unrepresented and switched off from politics completely.

I don't want two main party's trying to position themselves politically to win elections. I would rather have party's that stand for their beliefs first be it left, right or centre and try and convince voters that their policies are best

AndrewJB wrote:Do you think Blair would have won in 2010, or 2015? I don't, because he was becoming steadily more unpopular. Would you say the surge in membership doesn't represent a revitalisation? I would say it does. Do you think Labour would have inspired the same level of support in 2017 had another leadership candidate won in 2015, or Owen Smith in 2016?

Your daily reminder that Andrew "I love Corbyn" claims to vote Green.

Devils_Advocate wrote:True but the the Blair style Labour voters are still well represented to the right of the current Labour party whereas previously they were a lot of left wing and young voters represented by today's Labour party who felt totally unrepresented and switched off from politics completely.

I don't want two main party's trying to position themselves politically to win elections. I would rather have party's that stand for their beliefs first be it left, right or centre and try and convince voters that their policies are best

Much more fun when you aren't being serious!

But yeah, even though I don't agree, there is a lot to be said for sticking to your principles.

Course, he's not going to win anything, but the important thing is that the party sticks to its principles.

Lancasterclaret wrote:Much more fun when you aren't being serious!

But yeah, even though I don't agree, there is a lot to be said for sticking to your principles.

Course, he's not going to win anything, but the important thing is that the party sticks to its principles.

I dont know whats come over me but yes Id rather have a Corbyn and Boris led Labour and Tory parties with plenty of centre ground than have people like Blair and Cameron just chasing power.

I also think Labour cant exist like it used to as there is more of an underclass divide rather than a working class divide these days with a lot of traditional Labour towns and voters more concerned around who to blame amongst the poor rather than fighting together against the rich and the powerful

I appreciate that is a simplistic and idealist way of articulating it as it is far more nuanced and complex but it gives an idea on the way I see things

Now back to being an arse

Devils_Advocate wrote:I dont know whats come over me but yes Id rather have a Corbyn and Boris led Labour and Tory parties with plenty of centre ground than have people like Blair and Cameron just chasing power.

I also think Labour cant exist like it used to as there is more of an underclass divide rather than a working class divide these days with a lot of traditional Labour towns and voters more concerned around who to blame amongst the poor rather than fighting together against the rich and the powerful

I appreciate that is a simplistic and idealist way of articulating it as it is far more nuanced and complex but it gives an idea on the way I see things

Now back to being an arse

Bring back the real Devils Advocate you alien fiend!

Lancasterclaret wrote:Nothing at all, but you are joining an organisation that is dominated by left of the party now, and any critiscism of Corbyn and the way he does things are either "smears" or "Main stream media bias"

Dunno if you watch those excellent little films by John Harris of the Guardian as he travels around the country at the moment, but Corbyn even uses the expression "Mainstream Media bias" at a campaign rally. Harris, a lifelong socialist, is lost for words and quite rightly wonders where this is all going to end (he's clearly comparing the Brexit Party and Labour in their attitude to the media).

Farage is dictator for life because his party is effectively Nigel Farage Ltd with no mechanism for him to be removed. And yet he gets lots of votes.

Corbyn can in theory be voted out, but it isn't going to happen when absolutely everything can be blamed (and crucially believed) on absolutely anyone else.

He's lost three elections in a row and win one seat in a tight by-election (which I put down to Farage being marmite rather than Lab being great (though they did run a good campaign). And he's as safe as houses.

Thats what I mean by "Dictator for life"

If you're suggesting there has been no media bias in the way Corbyn is reported, then you're being willfully blind to it. http://www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-communic ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think the media bias has solidified Corbyn's support. Friends of my eldest daughter simply disregard any negative story about Corbyn, but is that because they put him on a pedestal or because they've never known anything other than media hostility to him? Considering the fact they all have a range of opinions about his policies or how well (or badly) he's doing, then I'd say it's the latter. It's too simplistic to say Corbyn leads a lot of blindly faithful followers (though I'm sure some are), when instead a political party with a real chance of power has put forward policies that resonate with a lot of people, and Corbyn just happens to be the leader of that party.

Lancasterclaret wrote:Fair enough

No doubt they are more revitalised in some areas but has that compensated the loss of the ones that have left or don't vote for them anymore?

Just realised you were taking the ****! Apologies, not had my morning coffee yet!

Ha.. nearly had you there.

Most days I'm not that arsed. But the Tories will do what they do unless someone stops them. And Corbyn isn't going to do it. His supporters know it too, but rather than think 's**t, we're a bit too invested in this odd, contrary and consistently unspectacular MP who's ended up leader as a joke', their only line now is that the electorate are wrong and 'the mainstream media' are being mean, like some redneck cranks.

Everyone hates 'New Labour' now, because, you know Iraq and all that. Red tories etc. But I've still not seen a single new school or health centre built in South Yorkshire since the last time they were in. I'm sure it was all paid on PFI and big business raked it in. But the buildings were built - loads of them, they were well staffed and now everything is crumbling and there's no staff and it's only going to get worse.

You'd think Brexit might have taught us that everything isn't as simple as in/out, left/right, black/white but there you go. Comrade or Nazi, pick a side!

AndrewJB wrote:If you're suggesting there has been no media bias in the way Corbyn is reported, then you're being willfully blind to it. http://www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-communic ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think the media bias has solidified Corbyn's support. Friends of my eldest daughter simply disregard any negative story about Corbyn, but is that because they put him on a pedestal or because they've never known anything other than media hostility to him? Considering the fact they all have a range of opinions about his policies or how well (or badly) he's doing, then I'd say it's the latter. It's too simplistic to say Corbyn leads a lot of blindly faithful followers (though I'm sure some are), when instead a political party with a real chance of power has put forward policies that resonate with a lot of people, and Corbyn just happens to be the leader of that party.

John Harris, lifelong socialist couldn't believe it when Corbyn used the term "Mainstream media" at an election rally.

Its a cult, and like all cults, its going to blow up in a big way.

Wouldn't surprise me if the people lamenting the loss of the gains made under Blair are also the first to stick the boot in whenever his names mentioned (Iraq, financial crash etc). There are definitely certain people who claim to have 'always been Labour' with whom Labour can simply never win.

NottsClaret wrote:Ha.. nearly had you there.

Most days I'm not that arsed. But the Tories will do what they do unless someone stops them. And Corbyn isn't going to do it. His supporters know it too, but rather than think 's**t, we're a bit too invested in this odd, contrary and consistently unspectacular MP who's ended up leader as a joke', their only line now is that the electorate are wrong and 'the mainstream media' are being mean, like some redneck cranks.

Everyone hates 'New Labour' now, because, you know Iraq and all that. Red tories etc. But I've still not seen a single new school or health centre built in South Yorkshire since the last time they were in. I'm sure it was all paid on PFI and big business raked it in. But the buildings were built - loads of them, they were well staffed and now everything is crumbling and there's no staff and it's only going to get worse.

You'd think Brexit might have taught us that everything isn't as simple as in/out, left/right, black/white but there you go. Comrade or Nazi, pick a side!

You would like a well staffed and well maintained public sector - and preferably one paid for properly, rather than on PFI. Same with me. There are a couple of parties that offer this, but only one with a realistic chance of gaining power. You don't like the party leader who has made these policies possible - fair enough, but to me it's a no-brainer. Policies over personality every single day. More than being a Green voter, I'm a Green Party member - but I'm realistic enough to know that my party isn't going to land in Downing St any time soon, and Labour represent the best chance of a green and progressive agenda being enacted.

AndrewJB wrote:You would like a well staffed and well maintained public sector - and preferably one paid for properly, rather than on PFI. Same with me. There are a couple of parties that offer this, but only one with a realistic chance of gaining power. You don't like the party leader who has made these policies possible - fair enough, but to me it's a no-brainer. Policies over personality every single day. More than being a Green voter, I'm a Green Party member - but I'm realistic enough to know that my party isn't going to land in Downing St any time soon, and Labour represent the best chance of a green and progressive agenda being enacted.

Neither have a realistic chance of gaining power, that's the problem. He recently scored lower than Theresa May in a PM suitability poll and she's already said she's not up to it. He's losing a one horse race.

Lancasterclaret wrote:John Harris, lifelong socialist couldn't believe it when Corbyn used the term "Mainstream media" at an election rally.

Its a cult, and like all cults, its going to blow up in a big way.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 21431.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Here is Corbyn's cult putting pressure on him.

I've heard a lot of people use the term "mainstream media" before, and I don't see how it's in any way a dark term insofar as differentiating it from a lot of new web-based media. But if I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up.

I've seen that John Harris isn't a fan of Corbyn, though I've never read anything by him which goes into why this is. If he's a lifelong socialist then I'd imagine that beyond the politics of personality, he must have welcomed Corbyn's leadership as socialist policies are now back on the menu.

I don't get it, what's up with the term 'mainstream media'? Everyone knows what it means.
When he became leader there were a couple of years where he was absolutely slaughtered by the right wing press and the right wing press has been setting the agenda more than ever over the last few years.

Lancasterclaret wrote:The only person who is more "Dictator for life" than Jeremy Corbyn is Nigel Farage.

Is that comment supposed to be relevant to the topic or is that you just can't hide your prejudice?

lucs86 wrote:I don't get it, what's up with the term 'mainstream media'? Everyone knows what it means.
When he became leader there were a couple of years where he was absolutely slaughtered by the right wing press and the right wing press has been setting the agenda more than ever over the last few years.

You mean like the Mirror, Guardian, Independent, Observer - which you are abviously not.

In some ways labour has a bigger problem than the Tories. They just can't reconcile their former support in the post industrial 'communities' of the Midlands and North with their rich bien pensant, metropolitan citizens of nowhere.

Woodleyclaret wrote:With the Tories in disarray this would be a very good time for Labour to ditch Corbyn and get an electable Laboir leader.This needs to be followed by a complete revamp of the Shadow Cabinet to remove Abbot and her ilk
The gains made under Tony Blair have been destroyed by Corbyn and he needs to go before the party sinks any lower

Tony Blair, was not and is not Labour!

Stayingup wrote:Is that comment supposed to be relevant to the topic or is that you just can't hide your prejudice?

You need to read up on the Brexit Party leader and the fact that there is no mechanism to remove him from being leader if he chooses never to go.

Thats why its relevant.

He's effectively leader of the Brexit Party for life, whatever he does.

Chobulous wrote:I have voted Labour for all of my adult life but I cannot in good conscience vote Labour at the moment. I feel totally disenfranchised

Same here. I simply cannot vote for a party led by Corbyn. I have precious little option as far as an alternative goes. My choice came down to the Tories or the irrelevant Limp Dems.

Oh, to have 90s-calibre of politicians now!

Steve1956 wrote:Corbyn is doing a fine job were he his, Unelectable.

We will see. People are waking up and starting to question the propaganda put out by the Tory media. Anyway the Tories seem to be involved in self destruction. The Tory leadership election is a wonderful comedy Cabaret show and if that upper class twit Boris Johnson wins he won't last two minutes. Reminds me of Pythons sketch Upper class twit of the year.

thomaspaine wrote:We will see. People are waking up and starting to question the propaganda put out by the Tory media. Anyway the Tories seem to be involved in self destruction. The Tory leadership election is a wonderful comedy Cabaret show and if that upper class twit Boris Johnson wins he won't last two minutes. Reminds me of Pythons sketch Upper class twit of the year.

All true, but doesn't change the fact that Labour are full of problems of their own and that Corbyn is useless.